First Greek Writer Exercises III->

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First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by jeidsath »

I will try breaking off threads for every group of three exercises going forward, but may adjust that depending on forum clutter. And I'm going to use the following headings to organize my posts:

Exercise X -- Comment @YYY
Exercise X -- Submission
Exercise X -- Correction

Exercise III -- Submission

οὗτος ὁ ἵππος ὁ ἐμός ἐστιν. πρότερον μὲν ἰσχυρός ῆν νῦν δὲ σφόδρα λεπτὸς καὶ φαῦλός ἐστιν. καὶ τὴν αἰτίαν λέξω. οἱ γεωργοὶ οἵς ἐπέτρεπον αὐτὸν σφόδρα ἄπιστοι ῆσαν. τὸν τοῦ ἵπποῦ σῖτον ἔκλεπτον. ἀλλ’ ἡ μηχανὴ καλή ἐστιν ἥν ἔχω λίθους γὰρ ἔθηκα ἐς τὴν φάτνην. ἐσθίων ὁ ἵππος τὸν σῖτον ἀποπτύει τοὺς λίθους. οἱ δὲ γεωγοὶ κλέπτουσι τὸν σῖτον σὺν τοῖς λίθοις. τούτῳ τρόπῳ ῥᾴδιός ἐστὶ τὴν ἀπάτην ἐξευρεῖν. οὐκέτι οἱ γεωγοὶ κακοί ἔσονται. φοβερὰ γὰρ ἡ ζημία ἐκείνοις καὶ χαλεπή.

Exercise III -- Correction 0.1

οὗτος ὁ ἵππος μού ἐστιν. πρότερον μὲν ἰσχυρός ῆν νῦν δὲ σφόδρα λεπτὸς καὶ φαῦλός ἐστιν. καὶ τὴν αἰτίαν ἐρῶ. οἱ γεωργοὶ οἷς ἐπέτρεπον αὐτὸν σφόδρα ἄπιστοι ῆσαν. τὸν γὰρ τοῦ ἵππου σῖτον ἔκλεπτον. ἀλλὰ μηχανὴ ἔχω καλήν τινα λίθους γὰρ ἔθηκα ἐς τὴν φάτνην. τὸν γὰρ σῖτον ἐσθίων ὁ ἵππος ἀποπτύσει τοὺς λίθους. οἱ δὲ γεωγοὶ κλέψουσι τὸν σῖτον σὺν τοῖς λίθοις. τούτῳ τῷ τρόπῳ ῥᾴδιον ἔσται τὴν ἀπάτην ἐξευρεῖν. ὥστε οἱ γεωγοὶ οὐκέτι κακοὶ ἔσονται. φοβερὰ γὰρ ἡ ζημία αὐτοῖς καὶ χαλεπή.

Exercise IV -- Submission

ἤδη ὁ στρατὸς ἐν τῷ στρατοπέδῳ ἐστὶ καὶ τὸ ναυτικόν παρὰ τῷ αἰγιαλῷ τῆς νήσου. οἱ πολέμιοι ἐπὶ τοῦ λόφου ἐστὶ ὅ ἐναντίος ἡμετέρου τοῦ στρατοπεδοῦ. αὐρίου ἴσως μάχη ἔσται οἱ γὰρ δοκοῦσι ἕτοιμοι. αὕτη δὲ ἡ μηχανή ἐστι τοῦ ἡμετέρου στρατηγοῦ. νῦν γὰρ πάντα σκοτεινά ἐστι, καὶ τὰ πυρὰ τῶν πολεμίων ὀλίγα. οὐ τοίνυν χαλεπός ἔσται τοὺς ἡμετέρους στρατούς ἐλθεῖν αὐτοῖς καὶ τῶν πολλῶν ἀποτεμεῖν κεφαλάς. καὶ οὕτως αὐρίου ὀλίγοι ζωοὶ ἔσονται, καὶ ἡ νίκη ἡμετέρα ἔσται.

Exercise V -- Submission

τάφρος ἔστι ἐν τούτῳ τῷ ἀγρῷ καὶ ὅ ἔχει πλεῖστον βόρβορον. τῶν δὲ πολλῶν ἵππων οἵ ἐνταῦθα εἴσιν ἕνα τινα ἐν δείνῳ κινδύνῳ δοκεῖ. αὐτὸς γὰρ ἐγγυς ἕστηκε ἐπὶ αὐτοῦ τοῦ τάφρου. οἴμοι νῦν ἐν μέσῳ τοῦ βορβόρου αὐτός ἐστιν. καὶ ἀπορία νῦν ἔστι τοῖς ἄλλοις οὐ δὲ οἷός τε ἐξέλκειν τὸν ἑταῖρον αὐτῶν. μόνος γὰρ ὁ δεπότης τούτον οἷός τε ποιεῖν οἴκοι δέ ἐστιν. ἐν τοῖς ἴπποις ἔστιν εἷς ὅ σοφώτερός ἐστι τῶν ἄλλων. [ὀνoμάζουσι αὐτὸν Λάσσι.] καὶ τρέχει πρὸς τὸν οἶκον τῇ δὲ κεφαλῇ παίει τῆν θύραν. καὶ οὖν τὸ κακὸν δῆλόν ἐστι τῷ δεσπότῃ καὶ ἐξέλκει τὸν ἵππον.

Markos and mwh have already commented on III:

Exercise III -- Comment @Joel from Markos
jeidsath wrote:
Exercise III...τούτῳ τρόπῳ ῥᾴδιός ἐστὶ τὴν ἀπάτην ἐξευρεῖν.
I would expect the neuter and you need an article for the demonstrative: τούτῳ τῷ τρόπῳ ῥᾴδιόν ἐστὶ τὴν ἀπάτην ἐξευρεῖν.
Exercise III -- Comment @Joel from mwh
ὁ ἵππος ὁ ἐμός means “my horse,” emphatic “my.” “My horse” is just ο ιππος μου.

λέξω. ἐρῶ more usual.

οἵς οἷς

τὸν τοῦ ἵπποῦ σῖτον ἔκλεπτον better with γὰρ after τὸν. Greek uses connectives except where asyndeton is called for—as it is in the previous sentence—and in the 2nd.

ἀλλ’ ἡ μηχανὴ καλή ἐστιν ἥν ἔχω reads very oddly: “But the plan is fine, the one that I have.” You mean something like “But I have a fine plan”? αλλα μηχανην εχω καλήν τινα (note idiomatic τινα). Or if “My plan (the plan I have) is a fine one,” η δε μηχανη ἣν εχω καλή ’στιν. (There are syntactically challenging ways of doing this too.)

λίθους γὰρ ἔθηκα ἐς τὴν φάτνην Good word order.

ἐσθίων ὁ ἵππος τὸν σῖτον Better to keep εσθιων τον σιτον (or τον σιτον εσθιων) together. Connective needed, another γαρ best.

ἀποπτύει, κλέπτουσι, εστι. Futures would read more naturally, but I guess you’re translating presents.

Connective for next sentence. ωστε best.
ουκετι better before κακοι.

εκεινοις better αυτοις, since no others are in question. Word order good.

III. μηχανὴ⟨ν⟩ typo. γεω⟨ρ⟩γοι.

I’ll bow out at this point (unless there are questions on this, in which case I'll try to address them), so that everyone can have a go.
Last edited by jeidsath on Sat May 30, 2015 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III-V

Post by jeidsath »

I have two questions in Exercise IV below that I hope someone can help me out with.

Exercise III — Correction with key

“Those farmers to whom I entrusted…”
“For the penalty to them will be…”

Exercise IV — Correction with key

Grave on ναυτικὸν.
ὅ -> ὅς and ἐναντίος takes the dative
I understand neither τῇ nor αὔριον here. ἐκεῖνοι is obviously correct. I believe that omitting the εἶναι is not an error.
I obviously forgot λάθρα. The χαλεπόν modifies the [τὸ] πρὸς ἐκείνους ἐλθεῖν. Understood like that, the dative case to “for our soldiers” is clear.
αὔριον confuses me, as above. I have seen both οὕτως and οὕτω, but I don’t know if there are any rules about one versus the other (I assume not). δὲ is obviously better as the connection.

Exercise V — Correction with key

The ὅ that I’ve added is clearly unnecessary. I believe that ἐστί can be understood as copular, because ἐν τῷ ἀγρῷ τούτῳ would be an attributive of place, so Sidgwick’s accentuation is correction.
κινδύνῳ δεινῷ is correct, of course. Again, I believe that I am still correct with εἶναι omitted?
αὐτός is again unnecessary. τάφρος is feminine, (as a container, or earth? See Farrar 34 — a good resource in the first half). And the horse is on the edge of the ditch, not the middle of it, apparently. I should watch elision.
αὐτός is unnecessary. μέσος is an adjective in Greek!
Sidgwick definitely agrees with how I’ve see ἀπορία used in Xenophon. ἔτεροι seems better than ἄλλοι but I couldn’t say why. αὐτῶν is unnecessary, but I think optional (unlike above).
τοῦτο is correct as neuter.
ὄ -> ὃς again. I did not know that I could use πολλῷ like that. (It still gives me trouble, actually.)
Last edited by jeidsath on Sun May 31, 2015 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III-V

Post by mwh »

τῇ αὔριον sc. ἡμέρᾳ

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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by jeidsath »

Exercise VI

οἱ Ἰνδοί ἐστι κακοὶ ἄνθρωποι τιμῶσι γὰρ ψευστὰς καὶ κλέπτας. καὶ δεσπότης τις ἔστιν ᾧ ἦν χρυσῆ πλίνθος ἡ δὲ τιμὴ τοῦ χρυσοῦ ἦν θαυμασία. ὁ μὲν δοῦλός τις τῆς οἰκίας ἔκλεψε τὴν πλίνθον ὁ δὲ κλέπτης ἄδηλος ἦν τῷ δεσπότῃ. ἀλλὰ κριτὴς ὁ σοφός τις ἦν ἐν τῇ χώρᾳ, καὶ πάντα ἐχεῦρε τῇδε τῇ μηχανή. οἱ γὰρ δοῦλοι ἦσαν περὶ αὐτοῦ συνειλεγμένοι ἐς τὸ αὐτό. τοῦ δὲ κριτῆς φόβος ὁ μέγιστος ἦν. καὶ τοῦτον τὸν λόγον εἶπε. πτερὸν ἐπὶ τῆς κεφαλῆς ἔχει ὁ κλέπτης. οἱ μὲν ἕτεροι ἥσυχοι ἦσαν ὁ δὲ κλέπτης ἐτίναξε ταχέως τὴν κεφαλήν ὥστε φανερὸς ῆν τοῖς δούλοις καὶ τῷ κριτῇ.

Exercise VII

χίμαιρα τῷ ἀδελφῷ ἦν ἣν θαυμάσιῳ τρόπῳ εὖρε. πέτρα γὰρ οὐ μακρὰν ἀπό τῆς οἰκίας ἔστι καὶ μέγα ἄντρον ὐπὸ τῆς γῆς ἐν τῇ πέτρᾳ. ποτὲ δὲ ὁ ἀδελφὸς ἐν τῷ ἄντρῳ ἦν, καὶ ὑπὸ ὕπνου βαρυνόμενος ἔκειτο μέγαν χρόνον ἥσυχος. ἐξαίφνης δὲ λαμπροὺς ὀφθαλμοὺς διὰ τοῦ σκότου εἶδε. ὁ δὲ ἐν πολλῷ φόβῳ. οἱ γὰρ ὀφθαλμοὶ τοιοῦτοι ἦν τῷ λύκῳ καὶ πλέα ἐστίν ἡ χώρα λύκων. ἀλλ’ ἐν τούτῳ ἡ χίμαιρα ἔλειχε τοὺς δακτύλους τῆς ἀριστερᾶς αὐτοῦ, οὐκέτι δὲ ἦν οὐδεὶς φόβος αὐτῷ.

Exercise VI — Correction with key

Once again ἐστι -> εἰσιν
Make more sense without the μέν…δέ
The ὁ before σοφός was incorrect, I think.
περί takes the accusative here. See LSJ. Word order feels better in Sidgwick, with the verb and participle at the ends of the phrases.
Ditch the ὁ again. κριτοῦ by the rule for masculine second declension nouns.

Exercise VII — Correction with key

ἦν -> ἔστι. “My brother.” There is no “a certain” in the English, but τις works.
Grave on ἀπό. Notice word order, τις and ταύτῃ
ὑπὸ ὕπνου βαρυνόμενος -> ὕπνῳ βαρυνόμενος. μακρὸν χρόνον.
ἦν -> εἰσί.
I think that αὐτοῦ is permissible. I don’t know if there is any meaning or emphasis difference between οὐδεὶς φόβος αὐτῷ and αὐτῷ φόβος οὐδείς.
Last edited by jeidsath on Sun May 31, 2015 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by Σαυλος »

Exercise IIΙ -- Submission
οὗτος ὁ ἵππος ἐμός ἐστιν. πρότερον ἦν ἰσχυρός. νῦν δὲ λεπτὸς καὶ
φαῦλος ἐστίν. λέξω τὴν αἰτίαν τούτου. ἄπιστοι ἦσαν ἐκεῖνοι οἱ γεωργοὶ οἶς τὸν ἐπὸν ἵππον ἐπέτρεπον. τὸν σῖτον ἔκλεπτον τοῦ ἵππου. ἀλλὰ ἀγαθὴ ἡ μηχανὴ ἥν ἔχω. ἐγὼ γὰρ ἔθηκα τοὺς λίθους ἐς τὴν φάτνην. ὁ μὲν ἵππος ἐσθίων ἀποπτύει τοὺς λίθους. οἱ δὲ γεωργοὶ κλέπτουσι τόν σὺν λίθοις σῖτον. ἐν τούτῳ τῷ τρόπῳ ῥᾴδιόν ἐστι ἐξευρεῖν ἀπάτην. οὐκέτι πονηροί ἔσονται οἱ γεωργοί. ἡ δὲ ζημία αὐτοῖς ἔσται φοβερή καὶ χαλεπή.
Self-Corrections:
1. κακή is better.
2. ἥν should have a grave (don't know yet how to type it).
3. φοβερὰ
φαῦλος ἐστίν Sidgwick has: φαῦλός ἐστι.


Exercise III – Comment @ Joel
I like having a pattern. I'll follow your conventions (comments @, submission, etc).

I think listing the Corrections with key interlaced is personal work we could do off the Forum. But I don't think it does much good to post it on the Forum.

I'd suggest we composers simply
  • a) Post an original translation, and
    b) Post our corrections to that translation after looking at the key or other participant's translations.
What that leaves is our best shot at a corrected composition that others can look over and help us with.
My two cents, anyway.
I will babble until I talk. ετι λαλαγω...

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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by jeidsath »

Sounds good to me. I'll edit my above posts to follow that format. Since we have the good version in the key, I'll also just post new exercises, with the errors I caught highlighted in red. Others can supply the corrections (with explanations). Hopefully this will keep the discussion going.

Exercise VIII

ἐν τῇ ὕλῃ ἀνήριθμαι μέλισσαι εἴσι πάντῃ πετόμεναι τάχισται. ποῦ ἐστι τὸ χωρίον ἐν ᾧ ἔστι ἡ οἰκία αὗται; ἴσως ἐν ἑνί τινι τούτων τῶν δένδρων μεγάλων. σαπρόν πολλάκις ἐστὶ τὸ ξύλον διὰ τὸν μακρὸν χρονὸν καὶ τὸν δεινὸν ὑετόν. καὶ οὖν ἐν τῷ κοίλῳ ἄντρον ἔστιν οὔκ ἄνευ πόνου πεποίηται ἐς οἰκίαν ὑπὸ τῶν μελίσσων. τοῦτο μὲν θαυμάσιον ὅτι οὐκ ἄνθρωποι [ταῖς μελίσσαις] ἔχθιστοί ἐστιν οἱ δὲ ἄρκτοι. οὗτοι γὰρ ὅμοιοι τοῖς παιδίοις, σφόδρος μέγας πόθος ἦν τῶν ἡδίστων τοῖς αὐτοῖς.

Exercise IX

διὰ τί παντοῖοι ἄνθρωποι πιστοὶ [τῷ] Κύρῳ ὅσοι ὑπήκοοι ἦσαν τῇ ἀρχῇ αὐτοῦ; ὅτι σφόδρα πιστὸς αὐτὸς ἦν καὶ ἀεὶ ἕτοιμος ἦν τὸν πλοῦτον αὐτοῦ ἑταίροῖς δοῦναι καὶ δῶρα δεόμενος ἕκαστου τοῖς δὲ φίλοις πολλοὺς ἀντελάμβανεν ἀλλ’ οὐκ τοσοῦτος ἐκεῖνοι αὐτοῖς. ἐνιότε δὲ ὁ σῖτον σπάνιον ἦν τοῖς ἀνθρώποις καὶ [ὁ] χιλὸς τοῖς ἵπποις. τότε μὲν ἔπεμπε ἄρτους ἐκείνοις [καὶ περὶ] τοῦ δὲ χίλου τοῦτο ἔφη ἐμοί ἐστι χιλὸς διὰ τὴν ἐπιμέλειαν τῶν δούλων. ὥστε δώσω τοὺς φίλους ᾧ γὰρ ἄνθρωπος φίλος ἦν δὲ οὐχ ἦσσον ὁ ἵππος αὐτοῦ.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by Σαυλος »

Exercise IV - Submission
ἤδη ὁ στρατός ἐν τῷ στρατοπέδῳ ἐστίν (1) καὶ τὸ ναυτικὸν παρὰ τὸν (2) ταύτης τῆς νήσου αἰγιαλὸν ἐστίν. οἱ δὲ πολέμιοι εἰσίν ἐπὶ τοῦ λόφου ὅς ἐναντίος τῷ στρατοπέδῳ ἡμῶν ἐστιν. τάχα αὔριον (3) μάχη ἔσται· οὗτοι δοκοῦσι ἕτοιμοι εἶναι (4). αὕτη δὲ ἐστίν (5) ἡ μηχανὴ τοῦ ἡμετέρου στρατηγοῦ· νῦν γὰρ σκοτεινά ἐστιν τὰ πάντα καὶ ὀλίγα τὰ πυρὰ τῶν πολεμίων. τοίνυν οὐ χαλεπὸν ἔσται (6) λάθρα ἐλθεῖν πρὸς αὐτοὺς καὶ ἀποτεμεῖν τὰς κεφαλάς πολλῶν. καὶ οὕτως αὔριον ἔσονται ὀλίγοι ζωοί καὶ ἡ νίκη ἔσται ἡμέτερα.

Exercise IV - Corrections from Key
(1) Sidgwick has “...στρατοπέδῳ ἐστί, καὶ...” What's the difference?
(2) “τὸν... αἰγιαλὸν” This should be Dative – location. Acc = motion alongside.
(3) Sidgwick, “τῇ αὔριον...” τῇ must stand for τῇ ἡμέρᾳ. Genesis 30:33 LXX ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῇ αὔριον. Is it wrong without the τῇ ? Leviticus 19:6 βρωθήσεται καὶ τῇ αὔριον,
(4) Sidgwick notes in § 34 “When in a clause of oratio obliqua the subject is the same as that of the principal verb, it is Nominative and not (as in Latin) Accusative. Thus: -- I say that you are good. φημί σε ἀγαθὸν εἶναι. I say that I am good. φημί ἀγαθὸς εἶναι.
δοκεῖ γὰρ αὐτούς ἐτοίμους εἴναι.
(5) δέ ἐστιν
(6) ADD τοῖς ἡμετέροις στρατιώταις
I will babble until I talk. ετι λαλαγω...

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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by Markos »

Σαῦλος wrote: (3) Sidgwick, “τῇ αὔριον...” τῇ must stand for τῇ ἡμέρᾳ. Genesis 30:33 LXX ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῇ αὔριον. Is it wrong without the τῇ ? Leviticus 19:6 βρωθήσεται καὶ τῇ αὔριον...
οὐχί
1 Κορ 15, 32, φάγωμεν καὶ πίωμεν, αὔριον γὰρ ἀποθνήσκομεν.
ἀλλὰ τὸ «τῇ αὔριον» καλόν ἐστι.
οὐ μανθάνω γράφειν, ἀλλὰ γράφω τοῦ μαθεῖν.

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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by jeidsath »

Exercise III — Comment @ Σαύλῳ

οἶς -> οἷς
ἣν Do you use Windows or Apple? On Apple, it will be shift+=. I don’t recall how the Windows keyboard maps, possibly as labelled here:

http://files.meetup.com/18191717/Ancien ... indows.pdf

Sidgwick has φαῦλός ἐστι because it is an enclitic following a properispomenon. See Chandler 971.
ἀλλὰ ἀγαθὴ ἡ μηχανὴ ἥν ἔχω -> ἀλλ’ ἀγαθὴ ἦν ἡ μηχανὴ ἣν ἔχω
πονηροί -> grave

Exercise IV — Comment @ Σαύλῳ

I think that mwh comments on the movable ν in the other thread. A comma isn’t quite the same as a full stop.
πολέμιοί εἰσιν See Chandler 970.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by jeidsath »

I have a list of corrections for each of these from the key, but it's probably more fun for everyone else if I just leave them as my first draft.

Exercise X

ὁ στρουθὸς θαυμάσιον ζῶόν ἐστιν. πτερὰ γάρ ἐστι αὐτῷ ἀλλ’ οὐκ οἶός τε πέτεσθαι τοῖς πτεροῖς. ποτὲ εἶδόν τινα λευκὸν ἐπὶ τῆς ψάμμου. μορφῇ δὲ ὁμοίον τῇ κεφαλῇ παῖδός. τοῦτο δὲ τὸ ᾠόν τοῦ στρουθός. τοῦτο μὲν τὸ ζῶον ἰσχυρόν ἐστιν ἀνόητον δέ ἐστιν καὶ δειλόν. ἔρχεται γὰρ τὴν μάχην τοῖς πολεμίοις ἐκείνου ἀλλ’ ὑπὸ φόβου τοῦ κινδύνου φεύγει. ἐνίοτε δὲ ἔχει δεινότερον φόβον καὶ τούτῳ ὠθεῖ τὴν κεφαλὴν εἰς τὴν ψάμμον. τὰ δὲ ἕτερα οὐκ κρυπτὰ ἦν τὸ δὲ ὄρνεον δῆλον ἦν τοῖς θηρευτάς.

Exercise XI

οὗτός ἐστι μῦθος περὶ τῶν λύκων καὶ τῶν προβάτων οἷῳ ἡ βουλὴ ἐγένετο περὶ τῶν κακῶν καὶ ἡ ἀδικία. τὰ γὰρ πρόβατα ἔπασχε δεινὰ ὑπὸ τῶν λύκων ὥστε οὐποτὲ οὐδεμία ἀσφάλεια ἐκείνοις ἐν τῇ χώρᾳ. καὶ δία τοῦτο ἀνάγκη εὑρεῖν μηχανήν τις. προβάτιόν τι δὲ ἦν σοφώτερον τῶν ἑτέρων καὶ τόδε εἶπε ὦ πρόβατα ὁ βίος αὐτοὺς κακὸς ἦν δία τούτους τοὺς λύκους. βουλὴ ἔσται οἱ δὲ λύκοι παρέσονται πείσομεν δὲ ἐκείνους ποιεῖσθαι φιλίαν καὶ εἰρήνην πρὸς ἡμᾶς. εἰρηνικός εἰμι καὶ ἡ μάχη ἡ πρὸς τοὺς λύκους οὐ φιλία ἦν ἐμοι.

Exercise XII

σύλλογος οὖν πρὸς βουλὴν ἦν τῶν προβάτων οἱ δὲ καὶ λύκοι αὐτοὶ ἦλθον ὀυδ’ ἐκωλύοντο ὑπὸ ἐκείνων. τὰ δὲ πρόβατα τάδε εἶπον ἐν δείνῳ δὴ κινδύνῳ ἐσμέν ἁρπαζόμενοι ὑπὸ τῶν λύκων. καὶ τοῦτό ἐστι ἄδικον ὥστε βουλόμεθα νόμον τινὰ ἔχειν οὕτως μᾶλλον ἔσονται ἐν ἀσφαλείᾳ. οἱ δὲ λύκοι τοῦτο αὐτοῖς εἶπον νόμος τις ἔσται τοιόσδε τὸ προβάτιον ἀδικούμενον λύκῳ ἄξει τὸν ἄδικον πρὸς τὴν ἡμετεραν βουλὴν καὶ ἔσται ἀμφοτέρῳ αὐτῶν τὸ δικαίον. τότε μὲν ἦν τερπνὸν τοῖς προβάτων ὁ δὲ ἄδικος τῶν λύκων ἐγένετο οὐδαμῶς ἥσσων.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by Σαυλος »

Exercise V - Comment
"They will not be able to pull out their companion."
Sigdwick has: καὶ οῦχ οἷοί τε ἔσονται τὸν ἑταῖρον ἐξέλκειν.
Is this allowed? οὐκ ἔσται δυνατόν αὐτοῖς ἐξέλκειν τὸν ἑταῖρον.

Exercise V -- Comment @ Joel
You noted that αὐτός wasn’t needed. I think it also gives the wrong idea. See Sidgwick §14 and §16.
ονοματι Λασσι :)

Exercise VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XI, XII -- Correction @ Joel :P
jeidsath wrote:I will try breaking off threads for every group of three exercises going forward
I will babble until I talk. ετι λαλαγω...

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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by jeidsath »

I'm worried that I will clutter the board with too many "First Greek Writer" threads if I stick to that. There are 121 exercises, and I'm averaging 2-3 a day. The exercise headings seem to be keeping this thread fairly readable.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by daivid »

Corrected version - thanks @ Joel
οὗτος ὁ ἵππος ἐστὶν ἐμός.
πρότερον μέν ἰσχυρὸς ἦν, νῦν δὲ σφόδρα λεπτὸς καὶ φαῦλος.
τήν δὲ αἰτίαν τούτου λέξω.
ἐκεῖνοι οἱ γεωργοὶ οἷς ἐπέτρεπον αὐτὸν σφοδρὰ ἄπιστοι ἦσαν.
ἔκλεπτον τὸν τοῦ ἵππου σῖτον.
ἀλλὰ ἡ μηχανὴ ἐστὶ καλὴ ἤν ἔχω, ἔθηκα γὰρ λίθους ἐς φάτνην.
ὁ ἵππος ἐσθίων τὸν σῖτον τοὺς λίθους ἀποπτύει.
ἀλλὰ οἱ γεωργοὶ κλέπτουσι τὸν σῖτον σὺν τοῖς λίθοις.
τούτῳ τῷ τρόπῳ ῥᾴδιον ἐστὶν ἐξευρεῖν τὴν ἀπάτην.
οἱ γεωργοὶ οὖν οὐκέτι ἔσονται κακοί.
ἠ ζημία γὰρ αὐτοῖς ἔσται δεινὴ καὶ χαλεπή.


My stab at Exercise 3 - Submission

ὁ ἵππος ἐστὶν ἐμός.
πρότερον μέν ἰσχυρὸς ἦν, νῦν δὲ λεπτὸς καὶ φαῦλος.
αἰτίαν δὲ τούτου λέξω.
ἐκεῖνοι οἱ γεωργοὶ οἷς ἐπέτρεπον αὐτὸν σφοδρὰ ἄπιστοι ἦσαν.
ἔκλεπτον τὸν τοῦ ἵππου σῖτον.
ἀλλὰ ἡ μηχανὴ ἐστὶ καλὴ ἤν ἔχω, ἔθηκα γὰρ πετρὰς ἐς φάτνη.
ὁ ἵππος ἐσθίων τὰς πετράς ἀποπτύει.
ἀλλὰ οἱ γεωργοὶ κλέπτουσι τὸν σῖτον σὺν τοῖς πέτροις.
τούτῳ τῷ τόπῳ ῥᾴδιον ἐστὶν ἐξευρεῖν τὴν ἀπάτην.
οἱ γεωργοὶ οὖν οὐκέτι ἔσονται κακοί.
ἠ ζημία γὰρ ἔσται δεινὴ καὶ χαλεπή.
Last edited by daivid on Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by Σαυλος »

Exercise VI – Comment @ Sidgwick

I'm finding the most value in doing these exercises is reading Sidgwick's translation. My translation is more like a chore to get through in order to appreciate his translation. I'm wondering if I should actually be going more slowly and internalizing his little stories.

One way of internalizing, for me, is to record a reading. When I "perform" a text, it makes it feel more like real language to me. And, if I put it online, it truly makes it a performance. So, here it is: Sidgwick's KEY for Exercise VI, read in Restored Koine. If you listen to it, excuse my over-exagerration. It makes me FEEL the Greek! (I do feel kind of bad about slamming οἱ Ἱνδοι by proxy. Blame Sidgwick, not me!) :)

On a different topic, take a look at this interesting post about Arthur Sidgwick's personal diary. Can you decipher his Greek?
Last edited by Σαυλος on Wed Jun 03, 2015 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by daivid »

jeidsath wrote:I'm worried that I will clutter the board with too many "First Greek Writer" threads if I stick to that. There are 121 exercises, and I'm averaging 2-3 a day. The exercise headings seem to be keeping this thread fairly readable.
I couldn't work out what you were replying to so I am not entirely sure what you now think is optimun. For me a thread an exercise is ideal. I can manage 3 but more than that would be confusing for me. Perhaps we should ask for a new sub forum say "Other Greek Textbooks"?
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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by Σαυλος »

Daivid... He was replying to my quip:
Σαῦλος wrote:Exercise VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XI, XII -- Correction @ Joel
jeidsath wrote: "I will try breaking off threads for every group of three exercises going forward"
A subforum is a great idea. Maybe we could PM Jeff Tirey (admin) about it.
I will babble until I talk. ετι λαλαγω...

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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by jeidsath »

A post in the open forum might work better.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by Σαυλος »

Exercise VII – Comments @ Sidgwick
If you aim to make your translation close to Sidgwick's, don't use the Genitive of Possession in this exercise.

The footnotes for this exercise take you to § 36b. I like the way Sidwick's notes there connect the use of the Accusative for extent of time with the use of the Accusative with prepositions such as παρά, κατά, ἀνά, περί.

Exercise VII – Comments @ Joel
jeidsath 30 May wrote: ἀλλ’ ἐν τούτῳ ἡ χίμαιρα ἔλειχε τοὺς δακτύλους τῆς ἀριστερᾶς αὐτοῦ...
I think that αὐτοῦ is permissible.
Yes, permissible, but unnecessary. See Sidgwick § 18 and 21.
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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by jeidsath »

Exercise XIII

περιστερά ἐστι φρονίμη καὶ τὸ φέρειν τῶν ἐπιστολῶν δεινοτέρα. τοῦτο ποιοῦσι τρόπῳ τοιῷδέ τινι φιλεῖ δὲ ἡ περιστερὰ τὴν οἰκίαν καὶ συνετή ἐστιν. καὶ ὥστε τῆς ὁδοῦ τῆς οἰκίας εὑρίσκει.

καί ποτε χωρίον τις τῶν Μαμεδαίων τὸ ἐν πολιορκίᾳ ἦν ὑπὸ τῶν πολεμίων. ἐς μεσημβρίαν ποτέ στρατιώτης τις τῶν πολεμίων εἶδε περιστερὰν ἄνω ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ’ πετόμενος. κατὼ τῶν πτερῶν ἦν λεύκον τι ὡσπερεὶ ἐπιστολή. ἐνταῦθα ἦν πόθος τοῖς στρατιώτοις λαβεῖν τὴν περιστερά. ἐποιοῦντο μὲν πεῖρα τῶν ὀιστῶν οὐ δὲ ὠφελίμων ἦσαν.

Exercise XIV

καὶ εὐθὺς ἐγένετο βοὴ τῶν στρτιωτῶν. ὀργὴ γὰρ ἦν ἐπὶ τὴν ἀποφυγὴν τῆς περιστερᾶς.

ἐκείνη δὲ ἐν φόβῳ διὰ τὸν θόρυβον καὶ ἔπεσε ἐυθύς εἰς τὸν στρατόπεδον. ἐκεῖνοι δὲ τὴν ἐπιστολὰν τὴν περὶ τοῦ τρακήλου ἔλυσαν. ἐν ᾗ δὲ ἧν οἱδε οἱ λόγοι.

ὦ Μαμεδαιοὶ διὰ τίνα ἔχετε φόβον τοιόνδε φόβον περὶ τῆς πολιορίας; οὐδεμία ἔνδεια τῆς βοητείας ἔσται. τὴν γὰρ θαυμάσιαν παρασκευὴν ποιούμεθα. ὁ δὲ τύραννος στρατὸν ἄξει καὶ διὰ πέντε ἡμέρας ἐσόμεθα ἔγγυς τοῦ τειχισμοῦ. διὰ τοῦτο ἀνόητόν ἐστι ἀπορία εἶναι. ταχὺ γὰρ νίκη καὶ πολλὰ ἐπιτήδεια ἔσται.

Exercise XV

πολλὴ δὲ χαρὰ ἦν τοῖς στρατιώταις. ἡ γὰρ ἐπίνοια τοῦ πολεμίου νῦν δήλα ἐστίν οὐχ ἧσσον δὲ τῆς ἀπορίας τῶν Μαμεδαίων.

ἔγραψαν τοίνυν ἄλλην ἐπιστολὴν ἀντὶ τοῦ προτέρου. ἦν δὲ τοιήδε

ὦ φίλοι πολῖται τῶν Μαμεδαίων, νῦν δὴ ἀμήχανοί ἐσμεν. οὐ γάρ ὑμῖν οἷοί τε δοῦναι βοητείαν. ὁ γὰρ τύραννος ἐν τῷ νῷ ἔχει ποιεῖσθαι ἄλλην στρατείαν. ἀλλ’ ὀὐ πάνυ ἐν ἀπορίᾳ ἐσμέν περὶ ὑμῶν ἀγαθοὶ γάρ ἐστε καὶ ἰσχυρὸς ἐς τὸν πόλεμον.

τοῦτο δὲ ἔφερε τὴν περιστερὰν εἰς τὸν χωρίον τῶν Μαμεδαίων. φόβος δὴ δεινὸς ἦσαν τοῖς ἔνδον καὶ ἐνέδοσαν αὐτοὺς πρὸς ἐκείνους. τῆς δὲ πέντε ἡμέρας ἐφάνη ὁ τύραννος σὺν τῷ στρατῷ οἱ δὲ πολέμιοι ἤδη ἔνδον ἦσαν.

Exercise XIV -- Corrections

ἐπὶ τῇ ἀποφυγῇ τῆς περιστερᾶς
ἐκείνη -> αὕτη
ἐν φόβῳ ἦν
Strike ἐκείνη, ἔπεσεν suffices
ἔπεσεν
τὸ στρατόπεδον
ἔλυσαν suffices
ἐπιστολὴν
περὶ τὸν τράχηλον “about its neck” genitive would be “in regards to its neck”
ᾗ -> ταύτῃ
ἐν ταύτῃ λόγοι ἦσαν τοιοίδε
φίλοι πολῖται τῶν Μαμεδαίων
διὰ τί
τοιοῦτον
Use δὴ for connective
τῆς βοητείας -> ὑμῖν βοηθείας
Strike τὴν (a preparation)
ἡμέρας -> ἡμερῶν
ἐγγὺς ἐσόμεθα is better (focus on near, not will be)
ἐστι -> ἐστιν
ἐν ἀπορίᾳ
νίκη ὑμῖν
ἀφθονία τῶν ἐπιτηδείων
τοιαύτη τοίνυν ἦν ἡ ἐπιστολή (τοιοῦτος such as this)

Exercise XV -- Corrections

χαρὰ ἦν μεγίστη ἐπὶ τούτῷ
τῶν πολεμίων
φανερὰ νῦν ἦν
ὥστε (Accordingly)
τῆς προτέρας
καὶ ἦν τοιάδε
Strike the article ἐν νῷ ἔχει
ἄλλην στρατείαν -> ἑτέραν στρατείαν (use ἑτέρος to highlight difference)
ἐν ἀπορίᾳ -> ἀνέλπιστοι
ἀγαθοὶ -> θαρσαλέοι
τοῦτο -> ταύτην (ἐπιστολήν)
ἡ περιστερὰ
τὸ χωρίον (dative)
τοῖς Μαμεδαίοις ??? Why not genitive?
ἦσαν -> ἦν (φόβος ἦν)
δεινός -> ἔσχατος
αὐτοὺς πρὸς ἐκείνους -> ἑαυτοὺς ἐκείνοις (reviewed #15-#17, “themselves to them” the first is reflexive so ἑαυτοὺς, the second apparently does not need the πρός.)
τῆς δὲ πέντε ἡμέρας -> διὰ πέντε ἡμερῶν (the first would be genitive of time, “during” and shouldn’t be singular anyway)
σὺν τῷ στραῷ -> μετὰ τοῦ στρατοῦ (both work, the second implies a closer union [LSJ])
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by jeidsath »

Exercise III -- Comment @david

ἐς φάτνη -- should be accusative
τόπῳ is place. τρόπῳ
ἡ ζημία αὐτοῖς -- the penalty "to them"
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by jeidsath »

Exercise XVI

ὕλη τις δασεῖα ἦν παντοίοις δένδρεσι καὶ φυτοῖς ἐταῦθα δὲ πάνυ πλῆθα ὄρνεα καὶ θηρία. οὐδείς δὲ ἦν ἐν τιμῇ μείζονι τοῦ ἐλέφαντος. καὶ πότε τις σύλλογος ἦν τῶν ἄλλων τῶν θηρίων ὁ δὲ μέγας λόγος ἐγένετο περὶ αὐτοῦ. τίς ἐστιν ἡ αἰτία ἔφασαν τῆς τιμῆς τῷ ἐλέφαντι εἶναι; καὶ ἄλλοις μὲν ἐδόκει αἰτία τις ἄλλοις δὲ ἑτέρα.

ὁ λόγος πρῶτος τῆς ἀλώπεκος ἦν ὅδε διὰ τί ἄρα οὖτος κρείσσων ἡμῶν; οὐδαμῶς οἶμαι διὰ τὸν κέρκον αὐτοῦ μικρότατον γὰρ καὶ αἰσχρότατον ἦν αὐτῷ. ἅμα δὲ λέγων ἐκίνει τὸν μακρὸν καὶ ἁπαλὸν κέρκον. εὖ λέγεις ἔφασαν οἱ ἄλλοι σὺν πολλοῖς γέλωσι καὶ ἐπαίνοις.

Exercise XVI — Corrections

Notice word order in key for first sentence.
μέγα πλῆθος ὀρνίθων καὶ θηρίων
ἐν τιμῇ μείζονι -> ἐν μείζονι τιμῇ
πότε τις -> πότε
τῶν ἄλλων θηρίων (strike the extra τῶν)
πολὺς λόγος
περὶ ἐκείνου
καὶ ἄλλοις ἄλλη αἰτία ἐδόκει εἶναι — idiomatic
τοιόσδε ὁ λόγος
διὰ τί δὴ
τὴν κέρκον throughout. Feminine
πάνυ γὰρ σμικρά τις αὐτῷ ἐστι καὶ αἰσχρά
λέγουσα (f.)
μετὰ πολλοῦ γέλωτος καὶ ἐπαίνου
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by jeidsath »

Exercise XVII

μετὰ αὕτην ἡ ἄρκτος εἶπε τοιόσδε οὗτος μὲν ἀληθής ἐστιν ἡ δὲ τιμὴ γίγνεταί τις εἰκότως ἀπὸ ὀνύχων. ἄνευ γὰρ ὀνύχων πού τις φαῦλος τῷ κάλλῳ. οὔπω γέγονε τῷ ἐλέφαντι οὐδὲν τοιοῦτος καὶ πᾶσι οὖτος δῆλος ἦν. καὶ ἐνταῦθα ὑπάλαβε ὁ βοῦς λέγων. γιγνώσκω μέντοι τὴν αἰτίαν ὀδούς γὰρ δύω ἐστὶν οὕτῴ τινι προέχων ἐκ τοῦ στόμα αὐτοῦ. καὶ δοκοῦσι ἄλλοις ὁμοίοις κέρασι. καὶ δήπου οὐδείς οἶδε οὐδὲν καλλίον τῶν κεράτων.

καὶ ὕστατος ὁ ὄνος λέγει τοιόσδε ἔστε μὲν πᾶντες ἀμαθής καὶ ἄφρων τί γὰρ τιμή ἐστι τοῖς κέρασι καὶ ταῖς κέρκοις; οὐ δῆτα δὲ κῦδος καλός ἐστι τῶν ὤτων. ἡ τιμὴ γέγονε τῷ ἐλέφαντι διὰ τὰ ὦτα.

Exercise XVII — Corrections

μετὰ δὲ τοῦτον (ἀλώπηξ feminine, but the character is male)
τοιόσδε -> τοιάδε (as follows)
οὗτος -> τοῦτο
ἀπὸ ὀνύχων -> ἐκ δὲ ὀνύχων
τις -> τινι
κάλλῳ -> κάλλει
τοιοῦτος -> τοιοῦτον
οὖτος -> τοῦτο
πᾶσι -> ἅπασιν (LSJ consonant euphony?)
ὑπέλαβε -> ὑπέλαβεν
δύο more common than δύω
οὕτῴ -> τούτῳ
ἐστὶν -> εἰσὶ
στόμα -> στόματος
προέχων -> προέχοντες
ἄλλοις -> τοῖς ἑτέροις (to the others)
ὁμοίοις -> ὅμοιοι
Add εἶναι
καὶ -> δὲ
τοιόσδε -> τάδε
ἀμαθής -> ἀμαθεῖς
ἄφρων -> ἄφρονες
τί -> τίς
δὲ -> ἀλλὰ (I wanted to write this the first time)
κῦδος καλός ἐστι τῶν ὤτων -> ὤτων τὸ ἀληθὲς κλέος
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by Σαυλος »

Exercise VIII Bees - Submission
ἐν ταύτῃ τῇ ὕλῃ μέλισσαι ἀνάριθμαι εἰσὶ πετόμεναι (1) πάντῃ τάχιστα. ποῦ ὁ τόπος ἐν ᾦ ἐστιν ὁ οἶκος ταύτων; ἴσως ἐν δένδρῳ μεγάλῳ τινι ἐκ τούτων τῶν δένδρων ἐστίν. πολλάκις γὰρ τὰ ξύλα σαπρά (2) ἐστιν διὰ τὸν μακρὸν χρόνον καὶ τὸν δεινὸν ὑετόν. οὕτω ἐν τῷ κοίλῳ ἄντρον ἐστιν ᾦ (3) οὐκ ἄνευ πόνου πεποίηται ὑπὸ μελίσσων ἐς οἶκον. τοῦτο δὲ θαυμάσιον ἐστν ὅτι οὐκ ἄνδρες ἔχθιστοι μελίσσαις ἀλλὰ ἄρκτοι. οὗτοι γὰρ ὅμοιοι παιδία καὶ αὐτοῖς ἐστι πόθος μέγα ἥδιστα τινα. (4)

(1) Sidgwick:
"In this wood are numberless bees flying every way very-quickly."
"ἐν ταύτῃ τῇ ὕλῃ ἐισὶ μέλισσαι ἀνήριθμοι τάντῃ τάχιστα πετόμεναι."

  • Does my translation give the sense of a periphrastic verb, “The bees were flying...” rather than “There were bees flying...”??
    ἐν ταύτῃ τῇ ὕλῃ μέλισσαι ἀνάριθμοι εἰσὶ πετόμεναι πάντῃ τάχιστα.
(2) Sidwick:
"It is probably in some one of these large trees."
"ἔστι που ἐν τούτων τινὶ τῶν μεγάλων δένδρων."

  • The vocabulary for this exercise lists, “probably, που.”
    Sidwick's phrasing is difficult for me.
(3) I knew the relative should be ὅν (Sidwick uses ὅπερ) but I went with attraction. Now that I look again, I see that it would NOT be attracted since the ὅν would be Nominative, not Accusative. Until I read Thompson (Syntax of Attic Greek) I hadn't realized that attraction follows this rule: “A Relative which would be in the Accusative is often attracted into the case of its Antecedent, if that Antecedent is in the Genitive or Dative” (§ 75).

(4) Sidwick:
"and they have a very-great desire of very-sweet things."
"καὶ τῶν ̔ἡδίστων μέγιστος αὐταῖς ἐστὶ πόθος."

  • I don't really understand this word order.
Audio recording of Exercise VIII
https://archive.org/details/SidgwickFirstExerciseVI
Last edited by Σαυλος on Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I will babble until I talk. ετι λαλαγω...

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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by daivid »

jeidsath wrote:Exercise XVII
I do think that no one will mind if you start a new thread for 18 plus.
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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by Markos »

Σαῦλος wrote: (1) Sidgwick:
"In this wood are numberless bees flying every way very-quickly."
"ἐν ταύτῃ τῇ ὕλῃ ἐισὶ μέλισσαι ἀνήριθμοι τάντῃ τάχιστα πετόμεναι."

  • Does my translation give the sense of a periphrastic verb, “The bees were flying...” rather than “There were bees flying...”??
    ἐν ταύτῃ τῇ ὕλῃ μέλισσαι ἀνάριθμοι εἰσὶ πετόμεναι πάντῃ τάχιστα.
Yes, by both your word order and the way you accent εἰσὶ . Again, although there is some controversy on this, if you wanted to posit the existence of the bees, I think you would have εἴσι.
Σαῦλος wrote:Audio recording of Exercise VIII
https://archive.org/details/SidgwickFirstExerciseVI
Very nice. These are obviously New Testament bees.

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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by mwh »

Exercise VIII -- Comment @Saulos
(1) Sidgwick:
"In this wood are numberless bees flying every way very-quickly."
"ἐν ταύτῃ τῇ ὕλῃ ἐισὶ μέλισσαι ἀνήριθμοι τάντῃ τάχιστα πετόμεναι."
Note the adverbs going not at sentence end but before the verb (or in this case the participle). You don’t often get adverbs at the end.
(2) Sidwick:
"It is probably in some one of these large trees."
"ἔστι που ἐν τούτων τινὶ τῶν μεγάλων δένδρων."

The vocabulary for this exercise lists, “probably, που.”
Sidwick's phrasing is difficult for me.
που is often used (e.g. by Plato, and tragedy) to add a note of conjecture or supposition to an utterance, more or less equivalent to English “I guess” or “no doubt.” This is about the only decent position for it here—2nd word (as an enclitic), following the verb.

You might well find the word order ἐν τούτων τινὶ τῶν μεγάλων δένδρων a bit strange, but since τινί is enclitic Sidgwick idiomatically tucks it in behind τουτων rather than putting it directly after ἐν where you or I might have put it. Probably best not to try this at home.
—I now notice your ἐν δένδρῳ μεγάλῳ τινι ἐκ τούτων τῶν δένδρων, which is unnecessarily cumbersome, especially the δενδρ- repeat. You could have said e.g. ἐν ἑνί τῳ (= τινὶ) τούτων τῶν μεγάλων δένδρων.
(4) Sidwick:
"and they have a very-great desire of very-sweet things."
"καὶ τῶν ἡδίστων μέγιστος αὐταῖς ἐστὶ πόθος."

I don't really understand this word order.
It’s really not so very odd, and this is the sort of thing you might well emulate. των ηδιστων is given prominence (“salience”) by being put up front (it’s very sweet things that they desire). The two superlatives are juxtaposed, ηδιστων μεγιστος; that’s nice. μεγιστος—the adjective comes before its noun, and that noun is held in abeyance while αυταις εστιν is got out of the way. This way both μεγιστος and the concluding ποθος gain a bit of punch, and των ηδιστων … ποθος sandwich the whole thing. It’s a pretty neat sentence.

There are quite a number of mistakes in your submission that you don’t signal, but others (που) will pick them up. Here I comment only on the queries you raised.

PS. A propos, I've just seen that Sophocles was called "bee" (μέλιττα) because he was ἥδιστος, acc. to an ancient note on Soph. Ajax 1218.
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id ... =GBS.PA113, with thanks to jeidsath for the link.

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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by Σαυλος »

I really appreciate the specific feedback from you (plural).
mwh wrote:Exercise VIII -- Comment @Saulos
(1) Sidgwick:
"In this wood are numberless bees flying every way very-quickly."
"ἐν ταύτῃ τῇ ὕλῃ ἐισὶ μέλισσαι ἀνήριθμοι τάντῃ τάχιστα πετόμεναι."

Note the adverbs going not at sentence end but before the verb (or in this case the participle). You don’t often get adverbs at the end.
Expand on that sentence (Note the adverbs...), please.
mwh wrote:It’s really not so very odd, and this is the sort of thing you might well emulate. των ηδιστων is given prominence (“salience”) by being put up front (it’s very sweet things that they desire). The two superlatives are juxtaposed, ηδιστων μεγιστος; that’s nice. μεγιστος—the adjective comes before its noun, and that noun is held in abeyance while αυταις εστιν is got out of the way. This way both μεγιστος and the concluding ποθος gain a bit of punch, and των ηδιστων … ποθος sandwich the whole thing. It’s a pretty neat sentence.
That sort of explanation of the word order is very helpful.
mwh wrote:There are quite a number of mistakes in your submission that you don’t signal, but others (που) will pick them up. Here I comment only on the queries you raised.
I mark those mistakes I found myself. If there are other mistakes, I'd like to hear about them, if anyone is willing. If so, pick a couple more glaring mistakes. That would be more useful for me and less tedious for correcters.
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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by jeidsath »

Exercise VIII -- Comment @Σαῦλος

I only noticed three that weren't commented on. Of course, I'm not good for word order questions, although I can generally tell the Sidgwick is right and I'm not.

ἀνάριθμαι -> ἀνήριθμοι
ταύτων -> ταύταις (or τούτων?)
I don’t think that the ἐκ is necessary. I'm not sure that I've seen ἐκ used like that either.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by Σαυλος »

jeidsath wrote:Exercise VIII -- Comment @Σαῦλος

I only noticed three that weren't commented on. Of course, I'm not good for word order questions, although I can generally tell the Sidgwick is right and I'm not.

ἀνάριθμαι -> ἀνήριθμοι
ταύτων -> ταύταις (or τούτων?)
I don’t think that the ἐκ is necessary. I'm not sure that I've seen ἐκ used like that either.
χάριν ἔχω, ὦ Ἰωήλ.
Σαῦλος wrote:ἐκ τούτων τῶν δένδρων
ἐκ τούτων... I was shooting for Koine composition. You're right, ἐκ is not necessary, but often in Koine, prepositions are used to make the case function clearer. For this particular usage, see see BDAG, εκ, 4a.
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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

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Exercise IV - Submission
ἤδη ὁ στατός εστι ἐν τῷ στρατοπέδῳ καί τὸ ναυτικόν εστι παρὰ τῷ τῆς νήσου αἰγιαλῷ.
οἱ πολέμιοι εἰσὶ ἐπὶ τῷ λόφῳ ὃς εστι ἐναντίος ἡμετέρῳ στρατοπέδῳ.
ἐπαύριον, ἴσως, ἔσται μάχη δοκοῦσι γὰρ ἕτοιμος εἶναι.
ἀλλὰ αὕτη ἔστι ἡ τοῦ στρατηγοῦ μηχανή.
νῦν γὰρ πάντα ἔστι σκοτεινὰ καὶ τὰ τῶν πολεμίων πυρά εστιν ὀλίγα.
τοίνυν οὐ ἔσται χαλεπὸν τοῖς ἡμετέροις στρατιώταις ἐλθεῖν λάθρα πρὸς αὐτοὺς καὶ ἀποτεμεῖν τὰς πολλῶν κεφαλάς.
οὕτως δὲ ἐπαῦρον ὀλίγοι ἔσονται ζώοι ἔσονται καὶ ἡ νίκη ἔσται ἡμετέρα.
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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by jeidsath »

Exercise IV -- Comment @david

I only spotted two typos:

ἕτοιμος -> ἕτοιμοι
ἐπαῦρον -> ἐπαύριον
Last edited by jeidsath on Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by daivid »

jeidsath wrote:Exercise IV -- Comment @david

I only spotted two typos:

ἕτοιμος -> ἔτοιμοι
ἐπαῦρον -> ἐπαύριον
Thanks for both those corrections especially ἐπαύριον - I now realize that I have been getting that word wrong for a rather long time, :( - but no longer.
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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by jeidsath »

Note that I typo'ed ἕτοιμοι. Breathing should be rough. I'll fix in the original post too.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by mwh »

Ex.IV – comment @ daivid

Pretty good! Just one or two more things (Ignoring typos and minima):

ἡμετέρῳ στρατοπέδῳ needs article

νῦν γὰρ πάντα ἔστι σκοτεινὰ.
Accent ἐστὶ

τοίνυν οὐ ἔσται χαλεπὸν
οὐ τοινυν (τοίνυν regularly postpositive in Attic; τοινυν first word does occur in later greek, however).
And don’t forget to use οὐκ to break hiatus before vowels.

τὰς πολλῶν κεφαλάς better τὰς κεφαλὰς πολλῶν

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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by daivid »

Exercise 5 Submission

ἐν τούτῳ ἀγρῷ ἐστὶ τάφρος καὶ ἔχει πλεῖστον πηλόν. τῶν δὲ πολλῶν ἵππων οἳ εἰσὶν ἐνταῦθα, εἳς δοκεῖ ἐν δείνῳ κινδύνῳ. ἔστηκε γὰρ ἐγγὺς αὐτοῦ τάφρου. οἴμοι νῦν ἐστὶν ἐν μέσῳ τῷ πηλῷ. οἱ ἀλλοὶ εἰσίν ἐν ἀπορίᾳ καί οὐ οἶοί τε ἔσονται ἐξέλκειν τὸν ἑταῖρον. τοῦτον γὰρ ὁ δεσπότης μόνος οἷός τε ἐστὶ ποιεῖν οἴκοι ὦν. ἐν τοῖς ἵπποις εἵς ἐστὶν ὃς ἐστὶ μακρῷ σοφώτερος ἢ οἱ ἀλλοί. οὕτος δὲ τρέχει ἐπὶ τὴν οἰκίαν καὶ κεφαλῇ παίει τὴν θύραν. τὸ δὲ τοίνυν κακὸν τῷ δεσπότῃ ἐστὶ δῆλον καὶ ὁ δὲ ἐξέλκει τὸν ἵππον.


Checking Sidgwick, about half the ἐστὶs get accents and half don't. I would expect that to be a sign of stress but I can't work out the logic.
mwh wrote:Ex.IV – comment @ daivid

Pretty good! Just one or two more things (Ignoring typos and minima):

ἡμετέρῳ στρατοπέδῳ needs article

νῦν γὰρ πάντα ἔστι σκοτεινὰ.
Accent ἐστὶ

τοίνυν οὐ ἔσται χαλεπὸν
οὐ τοινυν (τοίνυν regularly postpositive in Attic; τοινυν first word does occur in later greek, however).
And don’t forget to use οὐκ to break hiatus before vowels.

τὰς πολλῶν κεφαλάς better τὰς κεφαλὰς πολλῶν
The dagger on τοινυν was Sidgwick's hint that it is positive. Now I'll be on the lookout in future. Thanks for all the corrections.
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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by jeidsath »

Checking Sidgwick, about half the ἐστὶs get accents and half don't. I would expect that to be a sign of stress but I can't work out the logic.
No. It's just that enclitic accentuation can be complicated. I've summarized the basic rules below. I have noted where each is found in Chandler. You should also look up Chandler 938 and 940, but that's discussed above in this thread, so I won't include it in this post.

An enclitic following an oxytone loses its accent and the oxytone receives the acute rather than grave. ἀγαθός ἐστι. (Chandler 964.)

The monosyllabic enclitic after a paroxytone loses its accent and the paroxytone is unaltered. ὅυτω που Διὶ μέλλει ὑπερμενέϊ φίλον εἶναι : ἤδη τις εἶπεν : φίλος τις (Chandler 965)

A dissyllabic enclitic after the same paroxytone is oxytone: Ἀτρείδης ἐστί: πολλάκις εἰσί : οὔπω ποτέ : ἤδη φαμέν : φίλοι εἰσίν (Chandler 969)

A proparoxytone followed by an enclitic receives the acute on the last syllable. ἄγγελός εἰμι : ἤκουσέ μου : ἄνθρωποί εἰσι : κάκιστοί εἰσιν : ἐλάλησέ τις (Chandler 970)

A properispomenon followed by an enclitic receives the acute on its last syllable: οἶκός τε : Σκῶλόν τε Κνῆμόν τε : ταῦτά με. (Chandler 971)

After a perispomenon, enclitics lose their accent: ἧςτινος : ὧντινων : φῶς ἐστι : Ἑρμῆς ἐστι. (Chandler 972)

When several enclitics follow each other, they are all oxytone except the last: ἤ νύ σέ που δέος ἴσχει : εἴ πέρ τίς σέ μοί φησί ποτε (Chandler 973).

I recommend a read through the entire chapter in Chandler. There are some exceptions to the rules above for words like κῆρυξ or φοῖνιξ. Sidgwick doesn’t always follow 972.

If you think of everything in terms of mora conservation at the ends of words, and remember that there must always be room for the low pitch in a Greek utterance, it's not too difficult.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by daivid »

jeidsath wrote:
I recommend a read through the entire chapter in Chandler. There are some exceptions to the rules above for words like κῆρυξ or φοῖνιξ. Sidgwick doesn’t always follow 972.

If you think of everything in terms of mora conservation at the ends of words, and remember that there must always be room for the low pitch in a Greek utterance, it's not too difficult.
I've found a copy of Chandler's A practical introduction to Greek accentuation online. With that and your very full reply I should get the hang of it when I've had time to digest it.
Thanks.
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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by Σαυλος »

Exercise IX - Cyrus
I'm back to composing and found Exercise IX especially useful for teaching word order. I think attempting the composition without help is essential to then seeing how natural Sidgwick's word order then looks. It has helped to have comments here showing such confidence in Sidgwick's ability to write good Greek.

Again, I'm finding that to truly learn from these exercises, I must spend some time internalizing the Greek, Sidgwick's Greek, that is. I can't find a better way to do that than to "perform" the Greek by speaking out loud, as if to an audience. I also ask myself questions as I say the Greek.

I got stuck on the following phrase. I was trying to ask myself a question about δῶρα. Cyrus was extra faithful because he gave his wealth to many, and he also gave gifts.
  • "and gifts of which each was in need"
    "καὶ δῶρα ὧν ἕκαστος ἦν δεόμενος."
If the ANSWER is "gifts of which everyone was in need," what is THE QUESTION?
I can't even think of how to ask it properly in English.

The very last phrase of this Exercise was difficult to understand in English: "And then he used to send loaves to them and about the fodder he said this: I have fodder, owing to the care of my slaves: I will give therefore to my friends: for to whom a man is dear, to him no less is his horse.

I think I understand the last phrase. 'If a person is dear to a man, to the same man, his horse is no less dear.' But I don't get the line of thought in this last bit.
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Re: First Greek Writer Exercises III->

Post by jeidsath »

So that's taken from Anabasis 1.9. Sidgwick's English is a little strained here because he's trying to lead the student to the proper Greek. Simpler English:

Gifts suited to each person's needs.

If a man is dear to Cyrus, that man's horse is no less dear to Cryus.

Xenophon's version makes more sense. From Perseus:

"And wherever fodder was exceedingly scarce and he was able to get it for his own use because of the large number of his servants and because of his good planning, he would distribute this fodder among his friends and tell them to give it to the horses that carried their own bodies, that they might not be hungry while carrying his friends."
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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