What is crudebake?
- Anthony Appleyard
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What is crudebake?
I apologise if this query strays from Greek to pottery technology, but Homer mentioned the Daemones Ceramici (Δαίμονες Κεραμικοί), five malevolent spirits who plagued the craftsman potter:-
Syntribos (Σύντριβος), the shatterer
Smaragos (Σμάραγος), the smasher
Asbetos (Ασβετος), the charrer
Sabaktes (Σαβάκτης), the destroyer
Omodamos (Ομόδαμος), crudebake
Of the English translations, I understand the first 4, but what is crudebaking?
These 5 demons are listed in Homer's Epigrams XIV.
I can tell that e.g. Σύντριβος means "together rub", i.e. two pottery items fall against each other in the kiln, or similar, but Ομόδαμος seems to mean nothing if treated as Attic/Ionic, except perhaps "same-tame" (if an initial 'h' has got lost). (In Doric it means "of the same race".)
But the Loeb version says Ωμόδαμος here (and I have just corrected Wikipedia accordingly), and ωμος means "raw" (which may explain the "crude" in the translation "crudebake"), and also "shoulder", but what is -δαμος here? And what does it correspond to in real pottery baking?
Syntribos (Σύντριβος), the shatterer
Smaragos (Σμάραγος), the smasher
Asbetos (Ασβετος), the charrer
Sabaktes (Σαβάκτης), the destroyer
Omodamos (Ομόδαμος), crudebake
Of the English translations, I understand the first 4, but what is crudebaking?
These 5 demons are listed in Homer's Epigrams XIV.
I can tell that e.g. Σύντριβος means "together rub", i.e. two pottery items fall against each other in the kiln, or similar, but Ομόδαμος seems to mean nothing if treated as Attic/Ionic, except perhaps "same-tame" (if an initial 'h' has got lost). (In Doric it means "of the same race".)
But the Loeb version says Ωμόδαμος here (and I have just corrected Wikipedia accordingly), and ωμος means "raw" (which may explain the "crude" in the translation "crudebake"), and also "shoulder", but what is -δαμος here? And what does it correspond to in real pottery baking?
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Re: What is crudebake?
The print edition of LSJ translates this demon name as "Fierce Conqueror." I can't find the Greek text online, but given that the initial letter is Ω and not Ο, the A must be short, not long--otherwise we would have a cretic (long-short-long), a metrical shape that's impermissible in hexameter and elegy. So -δαμος must be from the root *dam-, "tame," "subdue," "conquer," as in δάμνημι, δαμνάω, δαμάζω, etc., not from δῆμος, "people." And ὠμο- is obviously from ὠμός, "raw" or "fierce." But that's about as far as I suspect anyone will ever be able to go in trying to figure out this name.
The epigram is, of course, not by "Homer", whoever that was. And some of the translations of the other demon names are questionable, too. I suppose if you were Euphronios, these names might be more meaningful.
Addendum: Maybe a derivation from ὦμος "shoulder" is more likely. Perhaps it has something to do with a pot that is too much for the potter's shoulder or just a reference to the shoulder pain thatwas probably an occupational hazard for potters. I may be mistaken, but believe that would call for a proparoxytone accentuation, but it's possible that whoever originally marked the accent in this text didn't know what the word meant, either.
The epigram is, of course, not by "Homer", whoever that was. And some of the translations of the other demon names are questionable, too. I suppose if you were Euphronios, these names might be more meaningful.
Addendum: Maybe a derivation from ὦμος "shoulder" is more likely. Perhaps it has something to do with a pot that is too much for the potter's shoulder or just a reference to the shoulder pain thatwas probably an occupational hazard for potters. I may be mistaken, but believe that would call for a proparoxytone accentuation, but it's possible that whoever originally marked the accent in this text didn't know what the word meant, either.
Last edited by Qimmik on Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is crudebake?
I see LSJ takes it as "Fierce Conqueror." That implies -δαμος < δάμνημι, subdue, conquer—as in your "same-tame", I presume. ωμο- = raw, very common, but sometimes savage, fierce. Looks as if we have two competing interpretations. "Crudebake" (i.e. raw-conquered?) would refer to firing without first baking (but is that compatible with "crudebake—so is this a 3rd interpretation?)? Fierce conqueror would not relate to the potting process at all, so far as I can see. "Fierce-conquered" might refer to baking or firing at extra high temp (a 4th interpretation?!)? But I'd expect the prefix to mean "raw" i.e. uncooked, i.e. neither baked nor fired? Raw-tamed?, tamed i.e.shaped on the wheel?
This is just off the top of my head, could be entirely wrong.
EDIT: This posted before seeing Qimmik's post.
This is just off the top of my head, could be entirely wrong.
EDIT: This posted before seeing Qimmik's post.
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Re: What is crudebake?
In Anabasis, Clearchus is "ἀεὶ χαλεπὸς ἦν καὶ ὠμός" with his men. Demosthenes referring to a man who, among other things, bit off someone's nose and swallowed it, says "ἢ τί τῶν πάντων οὐχὶ δυσχεράναντες; οὐκ ἀσεβής; οὐκ ὠμός; οὐκ ἀκάθαρτος; οὐ συκοφάντης;" And of prosecutorial misconduct "τίς οὕτως ὠμός ἐστιν ἀντίδικος ἢ διαιτητὴς."
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com
- Anthony Appleyard
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Re: What is crudebake?
Or Σύντριβος may mean for 2 pots to "rub together" in the baking and thus fuse together (particularly if they have a covering of slip or glaze), and thus emerge stuck together and have to be thrown on the waster heap, very annoying.
As Greek potters had to make and thus heave about many big heavy items such as amphorae and enormous storage vessels, I can well imagine that Ωμόδαμος meant arthritis of the shoulders, something that attacked the potter and not the pots.
As Greek potters had to make and thus heave about many big heavy items such as amphorae and enormous storage vessels, I can well imagine that Ωμόδαμος meant arthritis of the shoulders, something that attacked the potter and not the pots.
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Re: What is crudebake?
Ah ha! Aristotle's Meteorology: "κέραμος ὠμὸς καῖ γάλα ὠμὸν καὶ ἄλλα πολλὰ λέγεται."
It strikes me that Ὡμόδαμος may be related to pottery only because it is a play on the words ὠμὸς κέραμος. "Raw Clay" becomes "Rough Conquerer."
It strikes me that Ὡμόδαμος may be related to pottery only because it is a play on the words ὠμὸς κέραμος. "Raw Clay" becomes "Rough Conquerer."
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com
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Re: What is crudebake?
Good find!
Here it is: Meteorology 380b. http://el.wikisource.org/wiki/%CE%9C%CE ... %AC/%CE%94
πόρρω δὲ προϊόντων καὶ κέραμος ὠμὸς καὶ γάλα ὠμὸν καὶ ἄλλα πολλὰ λέγεται, ἐὰν δυνάμενα μεταβάλλειν καὶ συνίστασθαι ὑπὸ θερμότητος ἀπαθῆ ᾖ.
"Proceeding further, potter's clay and milk and many other things are said to be raw [ὠμὸς] if they can change and congeal/harden/set [συνίστασθαι] under heat but have not undergone the process [ἀπαθῆ]."
So ὠμὸ- here probably does have something to do with "raw", i.e., unfired, potter's clay, not the potter's shoulder.
Actually, Euxitheos was the potter; Euphronios was the painter, but he probably knew a lot about the pottery-making.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphronios_krater
Here it is: Meteorology 380b. http://el.wikisource.org/wiki/%CE%9C%CE ... %AC/%CE%94
πόρρω δὲ προϊόντων καὶ κέραμος ὠμὸς καὶ γάλα ὠμὸν καὶ ἄλλα πολλὰ λέγεται, ἐὰν δυνάμενα μεταβάλλειν καὶ συνίστασθαι ὑπὸ θερμότητος ἀπαθῆ ᾖ.
"Proceeding further, potter's clay and milk and many other things are said to be raw [ὠμὸς] if they can change and congeal/harden/set [συνίστασθαι] under heat but have not undergone the process [ἀπαθῆ]."
So ὠμὸ- here probably does have something to do with "raw", i.e., unfired, potter's clay, not the potter's shoulder.
Actually, Euxitheos was the potter; Euphronios was the painter, but he probably knew a lot about the pottery-making.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphronios_krater
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Re: What is crudebake?
I knew I’d seen this before. The poem, known as the Kaminos, “Kiln,” is quoted in the “Herodotean” Life of Homer, as I should have recognized immediately. The lines in question appear in Allen’s edition (in his OCT vol.5: his edition of the Lives is very poor: Wilamowitz's is far better, but I don't know what his text was) as
συγκαλέω δ’ ἤπειτα καμίνῳ δηλητῆρας,
Σύντριβ’ ὁμῶς Σμάραγόν τε καὶ Ἄσβετον ἠδέ γ’ Ἄβακτον,
Ὠμόδαμόν θ’ ὃς τῇδε τέχνῃ κακὰ πολλὰ πορίζοι.
Merkelbach-West print the poem as Hesiod fr.302, with the lines in slightly different form:
συγκαλέω δἤπειτα καμίνων δηλητῆρας,
Σύντριβ’ ὁμῶς Σμάραγόν τε καὶ Ἄσβολον ἠδὲ Σαβάκτην
Ὠμόδαμόν θ’, ὃς τῆιδε τέχνηι κακὰ πολλὰ πορίζει·
(“Sooty” not “Inextinguishable,” and Sabakthn, eliminating γε):
I draw these from the TLG, having no books to hand at the moment. The standard text is now West’s Loeb of the Homeric Hymns etc., and I know of at least two subsequent ones.
So presumably, given the context, not “raw-tamed” as I suggested but “raw-destroyed”, implying the vase was spoilt before even making it to the kiln? (or Ωμοδάμον parox. raw-destroyer?). But I don’t know how West translates it. I’d follow him.
συγκαλέω δ’ ἤπειτα καμίνῳ δηλητῆρας,
Σύντριβ’ ὁμῶς Σμάραγόν τε καὶ Ἄσβετον ἠδέ γ’ Ἄβακτον,
Ὠμόδαμόν θ’ ὃς τῇδε τέχνῃ κακὰ πολλὰ πορίζοι.
Merkelbach-West print the poem as Hesiod fr.302, with the lines in slightly different form:
συγκαλέω δἤπειτα καμίνων δηλητῆρας,
Σύντριβ’ ὁμῶς Σμάραγόν τε καὶ Ἄσβολον ἠδὲ Σαβάκτην
Ὠμόδαμόν θ’, ὃς τῆιδε τέχνηι κακὰ πολλὰ πορίζει·
(“Sooty” not “Inextinguishable,” and Sabakthn, eliminating γε):
I draw these from the TLG, having no books to hand at the moment. The standard text is now West’s Loeb of the Homeric Hymns etc., and I know of at least two subsequent ones.
So presumably, given the context, not “raw-tamed” as I suggested but “raw-destroyed”, implying the vase was spoilt before even making it to the kiln? (or Ωμοδάμον parox. raw-destroyer?). But I don’t know how West translates it. I’d follow him.
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Re: What is crudebake?
West has "Underbake." In its own way, it's a delightful little poem.
- Anthony Appleyard
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Re: What is crudebake?
As the other demons are named in the accusative case, it looks like that elided Σύντριβ’ represents Σύντριβα and thus its nominative was Σύντριψ, not Σύντριβος.
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Re: What is crudebake?
I am no expert in pottery but we are talking about an era where no kilns had thermometers and getting the right temperature must have been a nightmare. Under firing must have been a big concern. You might want to check out this url http://pottery.about.com/od/temperature ... mpclay.htm. Where vitrification has not occurred the pot will be porous and weak. If sintering has not fully occurred simple exposure to water will damage the pot.
As none of the others seems to fit under firing, Ομόδαμος must be the one to cover that problem.
As none of the others seems to fit under firing, Ομόδαμος must be the one to cover that problem.
λονδον