word order in sentences?

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JesseJestful
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word order in sentences?

Post by JesseJestful »

So i've recently started learning greek on my own, using white's first greek book.

Unfortunately he doesn't really talk about the noun cases, when which ones are used etc, and as a result im using the wrong ones in translation. For example, using the accusative rather than the dative for the object of the sentence. Also being unable to tell the difference between plural accusative and singular genitive, and as such needed to know by where they are in the sentence what case they're in.

for example στρατιὰς μικρὰς ἔχουσι i translated as 'they have a small army' when it is 'they have small armies' but how can you tell the difference between plural and singular here?

also i translated 'in the market place' to ἐν ταιν ἀγοραιν when it should have been ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ and i dont understand why i was wrong??

finally, he doesnt say whether adjectives come before nouns, whether verbs go before or after nouns or adjectives etc, and as a result I'm super confused

any help would be greatly appreciated!

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y11971alex
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Re: word order in sentences?

Post by y11971alex »

JesseJestful wrote:So i've recently started learning greek on my own, using white's first greek book.

Unfortunately he doesn't really talk about the noun cases, when which ones are used etc, and as a result im using the wrong ones in translation. For example, using the accusative rather than the dative for the object of the sentence. Also being unable to tell the difference between plural accusative and singular genitive, and as such needed to know by where they are in the sentence what case they're in.

for example στρατιὰς μικρὰς ἔχουσι i translated as 'they have a small army' when it is 'they have small armies' but how can you tell the difference between plural and singular here?

also i translated 'in the market place' to ἐν ταιν ἀγοραιν when it should have been ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ and i dont understand why i was wrong??

finally, he doesnt say whether adjectives come before nouns, whether verbs go before or after nouns or adjectives etc, and as a result I'm super confused

any help would be greatly appreciated!

The issue here with your translations seems to be with number; most Greek nouns are inflected for number, to indicate singularity, duality, and plurality (for animate nouns, masc./fem.) or multeity (for inanimate nouns, neut.). Στρατιὰς μικρὰς is plural, so the correct translation will involve "small armies", not "small army". The phrase ταῖν ἀγοραῖν looks dual to me, so it refers to "two marketplaces", not "marketplace".

The issue of word order shouldn't be too important, because syntactic relationships between words in a Greek sentence is denoted by inflections, not through word order as in English; my professor said that any instructor of Greek will be able to read sentences in all word orders, and we'll probably get used to erratic word orders in the fullness of time[!]. Verbs should be within the clause in which they are a component, but otherwise they can go anywhere before or after the subject. They can't usually intrude noun phrases, though, e.g. εἶμι εἰς [τὴν] μεγάλην ἀγορὰν and εἰς [τὴν] μεγάλην ἀγορὰν εἶμι are grammatically the same, but εἰς [τὴν] μεγάλην εἶμι ἀγορὰν would be unusual.

Edit: adjectives tend to come close to the nouns they modify, but they are free-floating, and can stand substantively as nouns on their own, e.g. οἱ μακροὶ ἄνδρες and οἱ μακροὶ can both mean "the tall men", because they are inflected for number, gender, and case, just like nouns. My textbook, Greek: an Intensive Course, notes three common positions in which adjectives modify nouns: οἱ μακροὶ ἄνδρες, οἱ ἄνδρες οἱ μακροί, and ἄνδρες οἱ μακροί, each meaning roughly the same thing, i.e. "tall men", though there are slight semantic differences. In more complex texts, adjectives can stand further away from the nouns they modify, especially when circumstantial participles are those adjectives.
University of Toronto: learning Attic Greek

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jaihare
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Re: word order in sentences?

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y11971alex wrote:My textbook, Greek: an Intensive Course, notes three common positions in which adjectives modify nouns: οἱ μακροὶ ἄνδρες, οἱ ἄνδρες οἱ μακροί, and ἄνδρες οἱ μακροί, each meaning roughly the same thing, i.e. "tall men", though there are slight semantic differences.
Are you, perhaps, typing up your work as you go through that book? Would you be interested in publishing it online for others to compare with? I'm working on that textbook, too. My work is published online here. I'd love to put your answers up in separate PDFs to compare both with my own and with those of others who would like to work through this text independently and don't have an answer key.

Let me know!

Jason

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y11971alex
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Re: word order in sentences?

Post by y11971alex »

jaihare wrote:
y11971alex wrote:My textbook, Greek: an Intensive Course, notes three common positions in which adjectives modify nouns: οἱ μακροὶ ἄνδρες, οἱ ἄνδρες οἱ μακροί, and ἄνδρες οἱ μακροί, each meaning roughly the same thing, i.e. "tall men", though there are slight semantic differences.
Are you, perhaps, typing up your work as you go through that book? Would you be interested in publishing it online for others to compare with? I'm working on that textbook, too. My work is published online here. I'd love to put your answers up in separate PDFs to compare both with my own and with those of others who would like to work through this text independently and don't have an answer key.

Let me know!

Jason
While not threadjacking, I think I must respectfully decline this more than flattering invitation.
jaihare wrote:
y11971alex wrote:Hi, I'm slightly confused by this the intention of the activity; is this meant for people who already have worked through the text and hence in a position to give sample answers, or for those still learning from the text?
We are using vocab and structures that have been presented until the present unit in the book. We are about to have our third meeting on Unit 2's exercises on page 59. In our last two meetings, we took the sentences from the exercises and ask questions about them, expecting answers that are formed only from the grammar and vocabulary presented until now. The idea is to drill the material orally and get used to using it in spoken form.

For example, this is what I wrote for exercise 2 on page 59:

2. τὸν Ὅμηρον εἰς τὴν ἀγορὰν πέμψω. (presented in the textbook)
ἆρα πέμψεις τὸν Ὅμηρον εἰς τὴν ἀγοράν;
εἰς τὴν νῆσον πέμψεις τὸν Ὅμηρον, ἢ εἰς τὴν ἀγοράν;
πέμψεις οὖν τὸν Ὅμηρον εἰς τὴν νῆσον. (οὐχί!)
τίς τὸν Ὅμηρον εἰς τὴν ἀγορὰν πέμψει;
τοῖ (where to?) πέμψεις τὸν Ὅμηρον;
τίνα εἰς τὴν ἀγορὰν πέμψεις;
(διὰ) τί πέμψεις τὸν Ὅμηρον εἰς τὴν ἀγοράν;

I assume that the first-person in the drill is the person I'm talking with. Thus, I ask in the second person: πέμψεις. The last question, διὰ τί, is intended only for an advanced person who will be able to answer in a way not attached to this specific sentence. We are using διὰ τί between us (myself and Paul - our third participant had an urgent issue arise that caused him to decide not to participate with us) to get us to use ἵνα and ὅπως clauses, which will actually be presented in the next unit of the book.

We're going to spend this next meeting (on Tuesday afternoon, at 16:00 local Israel time) going over our own sentences based on this same exercise set. For example, the above exercise is τὸν Ὅμηρον εἰς τὴν ἀγορὰν πέμψω. I will take the structure of this sentence to create several of my own using the vocabulary that we have covered until this point in the textbook. I might say one of the following:

τὸν ἄγγελον εἰς τὸν οἶκον ἐπέμψαμεν. "We sent the messenger into the house."
τὸν ξένον ἀπὸ τοῦ πολέμου πέμψουσιν. "They will send the stranger away from the war."
etc.

We will use only vocab and structures that have been introduced in the book until now. The idea is to make sure that we know the structures (pres. ind., fut. ind., aor. ind., impf. ind., etc.) before moving on to the next unit, which will present further structures and more vocabulary.

If someone is just learning from this book for the first time, it will first of all be quite difficult. This is an intensive course and will cover loads of information in each unit. I don't think it will be good for absolute beginners. It's more for reviewers who want to cement the material and transform their ability with the language into something more spoken, to begin to use ancient Greek for communication and to turn the language into something useful.

Does this answer your questions well enough? I hope I've understood and addressed your concerns.

Jason
I am currently on chpt. 19 of this text, so I was just offering my opinion as a student regarding the OP's questions.
University of Toronto: learning Attic Greek

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jaihare
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Re: word order in sentences?

Post by jaihare »

JesseJestful wrote:So i've recently started learning greek on my own, using white's first greek book.
First off, I want to say congrats. :) Welcome to the study of Greek. It's a great language, if not challenging and entertaining at every turn. I wish you luck and enjoyment as you get to know this ancient tongue.
JesseJestful wrote:Unfortunately he doesn't really talk about the noun cases, when which ones are used etc, and as a result im using the wrong ones in translation. For example, using the accusative rather than the dative for the object of the sentence. Also being unable to tell the difference between plural accusative and singular genitive, and as such needed to know by where they are in the sentence what case they're in.
I have a print copy of this textbook. I hadn't noticed that he doesn't really go into the difference between the case endings in a very clear manner. Instead, he just discusses the cases a bit and then throws up a paradigm for you to memorize, vocabulary and exercises. Not the best teaching method in the world, but it's certainly something you can learn from. I didn't use this text as a new student of the language, so I never noticed its weakness in this regard.
JesseJestful wrote:for example στρατιὰς μικρὰς ἔχουσι i translated as 'they have a small army' when it is 'they have small armies' but how can you tell the difference between plural and singular here?
The -ας ending in accusative is plural. The singular is -αν. So, "they have a small army" is στρατιὰν μικρὰν ἔχουσιν. Do you see the difference?
JesseJestful wrote:also i translated 'in the market place' to ἐν ταιν ἀγοραιν when it should have been ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ and i dont understand why i was wrong??
"Market place" is singular, hence ἀγορᾷ. The form that you chose is dual (as Alex said).
JesseJestful wrote:finally, he doesnt say whether adjectives come before nouns, whether verbs go before or after nouns or adjectives etc, and as a result I'm super confused
Adjectives can come before or after the nouns. When the noun is definite (with an article), the adjective can be sandwiched between the article and the noun (as in English "the small house" = ἡ μικρὰ οἰκία) or with the article doubled ("the small house" = ἡ οἰκία ἡ μικρά). In the latter construction, we even find Greek without the first article ("the small house" = οἰκία ἡ μικρά). Either way, it would necessarily have the article before the adjective if it's definite.

"the fine/good dog" = ὁ κύων ὁ καλός = ὁ καλὸς κύων = κύων ὁ καλός
"the beautiful girl" = ἡ παρθένος ἡ καλή = ἡ καλὴ παρθένος = παρθένος ἡ καλή

Hope this helps.

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