Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 9

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CanadianGirl
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 9 eta

Post by CanadianGirl »

Hi -Here is my version of 9 eta. I am willing to forgo 9 theta, and move on to Lesson 10, so see everybody there.
Athenaze Lesson Nine eta
Exercise 9η
Read aloud and translate:
1. ὁ πατὴρ τὸν παῖδα κελεύει ἐν τῷ ἄστει μένειν• ὁ δὲ οὐ πείθεται αὐτῷ.
2. τῶν πολιτῶν οἱ μὲν οἴκαδε ἐπανέρχονται, οἱ δὲ μένουσι τὴν πομπὴν θεώμενοι.
3. τῶν παρθένων αἱ μὲν πρὸς τῇ κρήνῃ μένουσιν, αἱ δὲ μετὰ τῶν μητέρων ἤδη οἴκαδε ἐπανέρχονται.
4. αἱ παρθένοι αἱ τὰ κανᾶ φέρουσαι κάλλισταί εἰσιν.
5. οἱ τοὺς χοροὺς θεώμενοι μάλα χαίρουσιν.
6. ἆρ᾿ ὁρᾷς τοὺς ἐν τῷ ἀγρῷ πονοῦντας;
7. οἱ σοὶ φίλοι βούλονται τὰ τῆς πόλεως γιγνώσκειν.
8. οἱ νεανίαι οἱ πρὸς τὸν ἀγρὸν σπεύδοντες μέλλουσι τῷ πατρὶ συλλαμβάνειν.
9. μὴ ταῦτά (this) μοι λέγε• ἀγνοεῖς (you do not know) γὰρ τὰ τῆς πόλεως.
10. πάντες οἱ νῦν τιμῶσι τοὺς τὴν πόλιν φιλοῦντας.
11. οἱ σοὶ φίλοι βούλονται γιγνώσκειν τί ἐστι τὸ δίκαιον.
12. αἱ ἐν τῇ οἰκίᾳ διαλέγονται ἀλλήλοις περὶ τοῦ καλοῦ.
13. σῷζε τοὺς ἐν τῇ νηΐ• ἐν μεγίστῳ γὰρ κινδύνῳ εἰσίν.

1. The father orders the boy to remain in the city, but he is not persuaded by him (does not obey him).
2. Those citizens went back home, but some remain, witnessing the procession.
3. Some of the girls remain at the spring, but some go home with their mothers.
4. Those girls who are carrying – are very beautiful.
5. Those witnessing the dances (or dancers) rejoice exceedingly.
6. Can you see those in the field working?
7. Those friends of yours wish to know the business (affairs) of the city.
8. The young men hurrying to the field are intending to help the father (their father).
9. Don’t say this to me, for you don’t know the affairs of the city.
10. All those now honor those who love the city.
11. Those friends of yours wish to know what is just.
12. Those ladies in the house are conversing with each other in regard to what is beautiful.
13. Save those on (in) the ship: for they are in great danger.

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brunapogliano
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 9

Post by brunapogliano »

sorry, time flies and I've been busy with family matters.
I'll catch up on everything.
be patient with me, both of you.
I still have Jason's remarks to go through and then on to CH 10.

btw, I read your posts about recruiting members but I'm unable to help you.
Jason, I WANT to go on to book 2 after bk 1, but I've already done some work on it and I won't be able to go as fast as we are now. I wonder whether you will.
:wink:
bruna pogliano
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 9

Post by CanadianGirl »

I am sporadically working on Lesson 10-should be able to post the first part @ Monday, Jan 19. I think we're making good progress. Regards.

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brunapogliano
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 9

Post by brunapogliano »

Never ever give up hope, I am here
In ex 9ζ I misspelled messenger
jaihare wrote:
brunapogliano wrote:Exercise 9η
Do you see παῖς here more as his slave or his son? I took it as referring to his son, but it can surely be read either way. Have we been presented with υἱός yet in this text? It’s interesting how Greek had υἱός, δοῦλος and παῖς – and how these words overlapped in certain contexts.
Too vague context, nearly anything possible
Exercise 9η
jaihare wrote:No major critiques. :)
Ex 9η I think I did a good job
jaihare wrote:I like your use of τὰ γιγνόμενα here. I actually thought maybe my τί γίγνεται was no good, so I checked the answer key – and it has what I wrote. I like yours better, though! I think what keeps us from translating it like you did is the fact that we would probably expect an aorist participle here instead of ὁρῶν, and we haven’t yet covered the aorist participle of ὁράω, which is ἰδών. That is, he saw the things, and then he fled. Stilted gloss: Eurylochus, having seen the things happening, flees and runs to the ship. The seeing needs to be antecedent to the fleeing, hence the aorist participle. He didn’t flee while seeing but after seeing.
A very nice point, thanks to your comment it is now clear to me that present participle refers to an ongoing, in progress action, regardless of time. Aspect rather than chronological order.
But don’t forget that AORIST is highly indefinite; your explanation is clear , though it stresses event order more than Attic aorist did. You say we would expect aorist, that doesn’t mean we’ll necessarily find it.
jaihare wrote: This is the second time in a row that I chose subordinate clauses with ἐπεί rather than participial phrases, whereas you have chosen to use participles. Again, I think it’s because we don’t have the aorist participle of ἀκούω – which is ἀκούσᾱς. That is, you didn’t go to the house while hearing but after hearing everything.

ἐγὼ δὲ πάντα ἀκούσας πρὸς τὴν τῆς Κίρκης οἰκίαν ἔρχομαι...
But I, after hearing everything, go to the house of Circe.

Do you see the difference?
Another interesting point! I certainly need more work on the use of participles, but personally I think that our different uses of participle reflect more our different native tongues and cultures than lack of aorist participle. Your accurate, clear, clean word order sounds more Anglo-Saxon, if you see what I mean. Or more koiné perhaps? I'm sure we'll be back on the subject.
jaihare wrote: The text seems to favor ἰέναι for “to go” rather than an infinitive based on ἔρχομαι. Is there a substantive difference between ἔπειτα δέ and ἔπειτα δή? Also, you cannot have two acutes together (ῥάβδῴ), even if the enclitic would like to give its accent to the preceding word. The accent simply disappears (τῇ ῥάβδῳ με πλήττουσα). To play with the enclitic, I changed the word order: πλήττουσά με τῇ ῥάβδῳ. Did she order the speaker to go into the pigsties (εἰς) or to the pigsties (πρός)? Do you see a difference in these prepositions?
I'd rather change my ἔρχομαι to prosἔρχομαι, ἰέναι hasn't been covered yet; εἰσέρχεσθαι even better.

ἔπειτα δὲ = and/but when ἔπειτα δή = after that
You’re right about accents of course, I was momentarily disconnected
jaihare wrote:
Just fine. I reversed the order at the end from yours (ἐθέλει τοὺς ἑταίρους [μου] λύειν), but the sense is the same. I don’t think an emphatic ἐγώ pronoun is necessary here. It can (should?) be left out.
I used ἐγὼ as opposed to the companions, too far-fetched?

I’m going to start working on ch 10 (though I remember saying the same weeks ago, but that was overoptimistic and before family matters and flu).
bye
bruna pogliano
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 9

Post by jaihare »

CanadianGirl wrote:1. The father orders the boy to remain in the city, but he is not persuaded by him (does not obey him).
“Obey” here is surely better than “be persuaded by.” Notice that “be persuaded” (passive) would be accompanied by ὑπό with the agent (ὑπὸ αὐτοῦ). However, “obey” goes with the object in the dative (αὐτῷ), which is what we have here.

Again, as I asked bruna, look at the use of παῖς here, which could be either “son” or “servant” – both being “boy.” What in the sentence indicates that it would be his son rather than his servant?
CanadianGirl wrote:2. Those citizens went back home, but some remain, witnessing the procession.
Notice that οἱ μέν... οἱ δέ... means “while some… others…” That is, it doesn’t say “those” (ἐκεῖνοι) but “some” (οἱ μέν...). The genitive (τῶν πολιτῶν) comes across in translation also: “while some of the citizens did X, others (of the citizens) did Y.” It’s the partitive genitive.
CanadianGirl wrote:3. Some of the girls remain at the spring, but some go home with their mothers.
Yes. This demonstrates what I just wrote about the previous exercise – with the partitive genitive. “Some of the girls.” Again, I’d go with “but others” in the second phrase.
CanadianGirl wrote:4. Those girls who are carrying – are very beautiful.
The demonstrative “those” would be ἐκεῖναι. We don’t have a demonstrative here. It’s just “the girls who are carrying.” You left τὰ κανᾶ (“the baskets”) out of your translation.
CanadianGirl wrote:5. Those witnessing the dances (or dancers) rejoice exceedingly.
Second time you’ve translated θεάομαι as “witness.” Why not just “watch”? It can be “watch, observe, see, look at, etc.” Why would you take it as “witness”?
CanadianGirl wrote:6. Can you see those in the field working?
We haven’t had “can” yet. ὁρᾷς is indicative – “you see.” The question (ἆρα...;) just changes it to “do you see?” The word order in English would also change: “those working in the field.”
CanadianGirl wrote:7. Those friends of yours wish to know the business (affairs) of the city.
Again, where did “those” come from here? οἱ σοὶ φίλοι simply means “your friends.”
CanadianGirl wrote:8. The young men hurrying to the field are intending to help the father (their father).
Great.
CanadianGirl wrote:9. Don’t say this to me, for you don’t know the affairs of the city.
Great.
CanadianGirl wrote:10. All those now honor those who love the city.
Great.
CanadianGirl wrote:11. Those friends of yours wish to know what is just.
Again, just “your friends.” “Those friends of yours” would be ἐκεῖνοι οἱ φίλοι σου or οἱ σοὶ φίλοι ἐκεῖνοι (something like this – there are a few permutations of the same basic idea). The definite article is not interchangeable with the demonstrative. We translate participial substantives with “those,” but not as a demonstrative really. “Those who run” is really indefinite, meaning “anyone who runs.” Either that or definite, referring to specific people: “the ones who are running are very fast.” Even though we would say “those who are running are very fast” with the same meaning, don’t think that οἱ in any and every situation can mean “those.” (Even though οἱ was indeed a demonstrative adjective in Homer!!)
CanadianGirl wrote:12. Those ladies in the house are conversing with each other in regard to what is beautiful.
Not “those ladies” but “the women.” It’s not demonstrative, as I mentioned above. Apart from this, this sentence is good.
CanadianGirl wrote:13. Save those on (in) the ship: for they are in great danger.
Great.

I hope that I’ve not been too critical. Paying attention to details (the difference between οἱ τρέχοντες “those who run” and οἱ παῖδες οἱ πρὸς τὴν κώμην τρέχοντες “the boys who are running to the village” [notthose boys who are running to the village”]) will help us in the future when things get more complicated and we’ll really have to notice small changes in form to get to the intended meaning. We don’t want to gloss incorrectly and not take the forms and syntax into account, since it will save us such a headache later on.

I hope this is helpful.

Yours,
Jason

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 9

Post by jaihare »

Bruna,

I don't think we can go too far with the concept that the aorist doesn't have any definition. I know that this is the etymology of the term, but there is certainly a sense of antecedent action with the participles in the aorist - not just non-continuous action. The verb in the present participle is most generally understood to be taking place at the same time as the main verb to which it is attached, and the aorist participle is action that took place before the main verb. We don't have to translate it that way, but this is a basic principle of how these participial forms differ from one another in conception.

Jason

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