Trying my hand at translation

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ObsequiousNewt
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Trying my hand at translation

Post by ObsequiousNewt »

So I decided to try and translate a bit of a webcomic (Existential Comics), which is of a dialogue between Protagoras, Gorgias, and Socrates:

Protagoras: So you see Gorgias, a virtuous man has courage, temperance, holiness, and many more similar qualities.
Gorgias: It certainly seems so, Protagoras.
Socrates: Aha! But you describe all these qualities on their own. What I wish to know is what the nature of virtue is as a whole. Since you are so wise, I'm sure you can tell me straight away, and I shall be quite eager to hear it.
Protagoras: What the hell?! Have you been there the whole time Socrates?

And this is what I came up with:

Πρωτ. καὶ ὁρᾷς, ὦ Γοργία, ἀνδρὶ εἰσὶν ἀγαθοὶ καὶ τὴν ἀνδρείαν καὶ τὴν σωφροσύνην καὶ τὴν ὁσιότητα καὶ ἄλλα πολλὰ τοιοῦτα.
Γοργ. μάλ᾽ ἔοικεν, ὦ Πρωταγόρα.
Σωκ. ἰού, ἀλλὰ φῂς ταῦτα πάντες μόνα, βούλομαι εἰδέναι ἣ ὅλη φύσις ἐστίν. ἐπειδὴ ἐστὲ τοσοῦτοι σοφοί, εὖ οἶδ᾽ ἔχοντοί εἰπεῖν αὐτοθέν: καὶ ἐπιθυμήσω ἀκούειν.
Πρωτ. αἴ; ἧκας ἅπαντα τὸν χρόνον;

Corrections?
εἰς ἄκρον περ ὄρος βραδέως τε μόγις τ' ἀναβαίνων
γῆν ἀποπίπτουσαν ἔκ μεο θηέομαι

Qimmik
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Re: Trying my hand at translation

Post by Qimmik »

You need to correct the Greek text.

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ObsequiousNewt
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Re: Trying my hand at translation

Post by ObsequiousNewt »

Yes... that's what I'm asking. (I'm translating into Greek, not out of Greek.)
εἰς ἄκρον περ ὄρος βραδέως τε μόγις τ' ἀναβαίνων
γῆν ἀποπίπτουσαν ἔκ μεο θηέομαι

Markos
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Re: Trying my hand at translation

Post by Markos »

ObsequiousNewt wrote:Corrections?
It looks pretty good. I put your typos in bold, my corrections between the ((...))
Protagoras: So you see Gorgias, a virtuous man has courage, temperance, holiness, and many more similar qualities.
Gorgias: It certainly seems so, Protagoras.
Socrates: Aha! But you describe all these qualities on their own. What I wish to know is what the nature of virtue is as a whole. Since you are so wise, I'm sure you can tell me straight away, and I shall be quite eager to hear it.
Protagoras: What the hell?! Have you been there the whole time Socrates?

Πρωτ. καὶ ὁρᾷς, ὦ Γοργία, ἀνδρὶ εἰσὶν ἀγαθοὶ καὶ τὴν ἀνδρείαν καὶ τὴν σωφροσύνην καὶ τὴν ὁσιότητα ((ἀνδρὶ εἰσὶν ἀγαθῷ καὶ ἡ ἀνδρεία καὶ ἡ σωφροσύνη καὶ ἡ ὁσιότης.)) καὶ ἄλλα πολλὰ τοιοῦτα.
Γοργ. μάλ᾽ ἔοικεν, ὦ Πρωταγόρα.
Σωκ. ἰού, ἀλλὰ φῂς ταῦτα πάντες ((πάντα)) μόνα, βούλομαι εἰδέναι ((τί)) ((ἡ)) ὅλη φύσις ἐστίν. ἐπειδὴ ἐστὲ τοσοῦτοι σοφοί, εὖ οἶδ᾽ ((ὑμᾶς)) ἔχοντοί ((ἔχοντα)) εἰπεῖν αὐτοθέν: καὶ ἐπιθυμήσω ἀκούειν.
Πρωτ. αἴ; ἧκας ἅπαντα τὸν χρόνον;
ObsequiousNewt wrote:(I'm translating into Greek, not out of Greek.)
A preferred pedagogy, in my humble opinion. Then you can compare it to what Plato actually wrote. I did a lot of this with the Greek NT and it really helped to build fluency.

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ObsequiousNewt
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Re: Trying my hand at translation

Post by ObsequiousNewt »

Thank you very much. I think I see most of what I did wrong, but why τί? Also, is there a stronger/more accurate interjection for "what the hell?", and is there a better word I could use than ἧκα?
εἰς ἄκρον περ ὄρος βραδέως τε μόγις τ' ἀναβαίνων
γῆν ἀποπίπτουσαν ἔκ μεο θηέομαι

Markos
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Re: Trying my hand at translation

Post by Markos »

ObsequiousNewt wrote:Thank you very much. I think I see most of what I did wrong, but why τί? Also, is there a stronger/more accurate interjection for "what the hell?", and is there a better word I could use than ἧκα?
I think if you did not use τί (I would actually prefer the word order βούλομαι εἰδέναι τί ἐστιν ἡ ὅλη φύσις αὐτοῦ) then it would have to be something like βούλομαι εἰδέναι τὴν ὅλην φύσιν. There is probably a way to make the relative pronoun work, but I'd have to give it more thought.

I would use οἴμοι! for what the hell. Maybe μένεις for ἧκας.

There are always many, many ways to say something in Ancient Greek. Can you track down the original?

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Re: Trying my hand at translation

Post by ObsequiousNewt »

There's no original, it's a sort of parody of the philosophers: http://www.existentialcomics.com
εἰς ἄκρον περ ὄρος βραδέως τε μόγις τ' ἀναβαίνων
γῆν ἀποπίπτουσαν ἔκ μεο θηέομαι

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ObsequiousNewt
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Re: Trying my hand at translation

Post by ObsequiousNewt »

Okay, here's the second line.

English
Protagoras: How much for this vase?
Socrates: Only five drachma.
Protagoras: A fair price.
Socrates: Indeed it is, but since you say so, you must know what makes it fair? Tell me then, what is fairness? What principle makes something fair or not fair?
Protagoras: Wait a minute. Socrates, is that you?
Socrates: No, no, you must have me confused. My name is Socra... mander. Yes, that's it, Socramander. Although this Socrates you speak of sounds very wise.

Translation
Πρωτ. πόσου τοῦτον τὸν ἀμφορέα πωλεῖς;
Σωκ. πέντε μόναι δραχμαί.
Πρωτ. τιμὴ δικαία.
Σωκ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν: ἀλλ᾽ ἐπειδὴ φῄς, χρή σ᾽ εἰδέναι ὃ ποιεῖ δικαίαν; εἰπέ μοι δή, τὶ ἐστὶ δικαιοσύνη; τὶς λόγος ποιεῖ τι δίκαιον ἢ ἄδικον;
Πρωτ. μένε. Σωκράτη, εἶ σύ;
Σωκ. οὐκ, οὐκ, συγκέχυσαι μέν. κέκλημαι Σωκρά...μανδρος. ναί, ἐστίν, Σωκράμανδρος. οὖτος μέντοι Σωκράτης ὃν λέγεις ἔοικε σοφώτατος εἶναι.

Corrections? Better words or phrasing? (Again, I'm translating into Greek, not out of it.)
εἰς ἄκρον περ ὄρος βραδέως τε μόγις τ' ἀναβαίνων
γῆν ἀποπίπτουσαν ἔκ μεο θηέομαι

Markos
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Re: Trying my hand at translation

Post by Markos »

I like it.

τί ἐστι δικαιοσύνη; τίς λόγος...

Should πέντε μόναι δραχμαί be in the genitive? Not sure.

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Re: Trying my hand at translation

Post by ObsequiousNewt »

And now the last lines:
English:
Socrates: Hello, Protagoras, are you there? Can I take a moment of our time to talk about wisdom?
Protagoras: Whew, I think he's gone.
Socrates: Tell me, Protagoras, for I wish to learn from your wisdom: if a man commits a crime, would it be better or worse for the man to confess and face his punishment?

"Oracle of Delphi, who is the most obnoxious man in all of Athens?"
"Certainly you are, Socrates."

My translation:
Σωκράτης: χαῖρε, ὦ Πρωταγόρα, πάρει; φέρε διατρίβω ὄλιγον τοῦ σοῦ χρόνου λέγειν περὶ σοφίας;
Πρωταγόρας: ϝεὗ, δοκέω αύτὸν οἴχεσθαι.
Σωκράτης: εἰπέ μοι, ὦ Πρωταγόρα, βούλομαι γὰρ παρὰ σοφίας σοῦ μανθάνειν: ἐὰν ἀνὴρ ἀδικῇ βέλτιον ἢ χεῖρον ὁμολογεῖν καὶ δικὴν παθεῖν;

"ὦ Πυθία, τίς ἐστιν ὁ ἀνιαρότατος ἀνὴρ ἐν ταῖ πάσαις Ἀθήναις;"
"μάλιστ᾽ εἶ σύ, ὦ Σωκράτη."

Besides errors, is there anything I can do to make this translation (all of it) more natural? I feel like I'm just using basic vocabulary, and with not enough partic(ip)les.
εἰς ἄκρον περ ὄρος βραδέως τε μόγις τ' ἀναβαίνων
γῆν ἀποπίπτουσαν ἔκ μεο θηέομαι

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ObsequiousNewt
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Re: Trying my hand at translation

Post by ObsequiousNewt »

Bump?
εἰς ἄκρον περ ὄρος βραδέως τε μόγις τ' ἀναβαίνων
γῆν ἀποπίπτουσαν ἔκ μεο θηέομαι

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Re: Trying my hand at translation

Post by jeidsath »

I've seen "ἔνδον;" as "is anybody home?" But I've only seen that in Rouse's other Attic reader (not Greek Boy) and a Theokritos paraphrase by Neophytos Doukas. In Theages, Socrates is asked whether he has any time by "εἰ σχολή."

I think that "natural" may be a bridge too far at this point. The first thing to shoot for is "intelligibility." Do people understand your Greek (without the English text)? Correctness is ten times harder, but that's next, of course. Naturalness is again ten times harder (or a hundred, I don't know) than correctness. And given that even I can spot modern Attic pastiche, it may be impossible in our age.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: Trying my hand at translation

Post by Markos »

ObsequiousNewt wrote:...not enough partic(ip)les.
Yes, good Greek is "spiced" with non-indicative constructions and particles. I'll put my spice additions in bold, but keep in mind that I am a lousy cook. And I cook better than I write Greek.
Μᾶρκος ὁ κακὸς μάγειρος wrote: Σωκράτης: χαίροις, φίλε Πρωταγόρα, πάρει σύγε; φέρε διατρίβω ὄλιγον τοῦ σοῦ χρόνου λέγειν περὶ σοφίας;
Πρωταγόρας: ϝεὗ, δοκέω γὰρ αύτὸν οἴχεσθαι.
Σωκράτης: εἰπὲ δή μοι, ὦ Πρωταγόρα, βούλομαι γὰρ ἔγωγε παρὰ σοφίας σοῦ μανθάνειν: ἐὰν ἀνὴρ ἀδικῇ, βέλτιον εἴη ἢ χεῖρον ὁμολογεῖν καὶ δικὴν παθεῖν;

"ὦ Πυθία, τίς τυγχάνει ὢν ὁ ἀνιαρότατος ἀνὴρ ἐν ταῖ πάσαις Ἀθήναις;"
"μάλιστά γε εἶ σύ, ὦ Σωκράτη."
οὐ μανθάνω γράφειν, ἀλλὰ γράφω τοῦ μαθεῖν.

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Re: Trying my hand at translation

Post by mwh »

Without wanting to be rude, I think you are trying to run before you can walk. The Greek is bad (and remains so even after Markos’ amendments), and your best hope of improving it and making it more “natural” would be to immerse yourself in Plato for a year or two and start over.

Even jeidsath’s intelligibility test, “Do people understand your Greek (without the English text)?” is inadequate. Greek written by an English-speaker which would be unintelligible to a Greek-speaker may well be understood by other English-speakers. We’ve seen examples of that on these boards. But your first passage (to go no further) is not only full of simple mistakes but could not be understood by anyone.

But don’t let this put you off!

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Re: Trying my hand at translation

Post by daivid »

mwh wrote:Without wanting to be rude, I think you are trying to run before you can walk. The Greek is bad (and remains so even after Markos’ amendments), and your best hope of improving it and making it more “natural” would be to immerse yourself in Plato for a year or two and start over.

Even jeidsath’s intelligibility test, “Do people understand your Greek (without the English text)?” is inadequate.
That's certainly true. It might well work better if posting to the a French or German (say) equivalent to textkit as even though there are a number of non-native speakers of English they have learnt English so well that are all as accustomed to English constructions as those of us who are native speakers.
None the less it might be good advice, even here, to initially post without including an English version of what's intended.
mwh wrote:Greek written by an English-speaker which would be unintelligible to a Greek-speaker may well be understood by other English-speakers. We’ve seen examples of that on these boards. But your first passage (to go no further) is not only full of simple mistakes but could not be understood by anyone.

But don’t let this put you off!
There is no doubt that reading lots of actual ancient ancient Greek is key to getting to grips with the language.
It does not follow from that anything else is a waste of time. First of of all reading lots of Plato is for those of us at the intermediate stage is simply impossible so the choice is working laboriously thru a small section of Plato and alternatives.

I do think that translation into Greek has most value if it aimed at practicing a particular form. Just reading and hoping that various forms and constructions will sink in goes against what we are told about memory works. In the initial stage, to memorize something it needs to be repeated in a stimulating way. Hence making use of the construction/verb-or-noun-form/vocabulary that you have just read strikes me as fitting the bill for helping ensure you don't forget what you have read.

You were just ObsequiousNewt not to use Markos' corrections as a model however I hope you were not saying that his corrections had no value. Markos may have been picking on the obvious mistakes but they will be the ones that ObsequiousNewt needs to concentrate on at this stage. (And what Markos writes is oodles better than I could write!)

I do feel that translation has value at an early stage even when there is a bit of shooting-the-moon about it.

I can't pretend any expertize in memory research not teaching methods but those who have do advocate engaging with the target language in different ways and that makes sense to me.

But I do take your comment as a warning to use our study time to the best advantage and not to assume a learning method has value without question.
λονδον

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ObsequiousNewt
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Re: Trying my hand at translation

Post by ObsequiousNewt »

Ah well. Thanks anyway. I was mainly looking to translate the text for the sake of coolness, and not as a means to help myself learn Greek—I'm more interested in learning about the language than learning the language proper—but at least I had fun trying.

[Also, quick question: are there any proparoxytone third declension stems (like **Αἴθιοψ) or are they all oxytone (Αἰθίοψ)?]
εἰς ἄκρον περ ὄρος βραδέως τε μόγις τ' ἀναβαίνων
γῆν ἀποπίπτουσαν ἔκ μεο θηέομαι

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