Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

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jaihare
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Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by jaihare »

Having spent three months and eight days (!) on lesson 11, we are now opening lesson 12. At least we're making progress!

Let's try to get this one done in two months! :)

Here's the template:

Section 12α of the Textbook

Exercise 12γ
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.

Exercise 12ε
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.

Exercise 12ζ
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

Exercise 12η
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.

Good luck!
Last edited by jaihare on Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12

Post by jaihare »

Along with preparations for lesson 12, I have updated my verb sheet.

It includes (at this point) the present, future and aorist indicative for every verb that we've encountered in Athenaze until now.

http://1drv.ms/1zT0AOm

I am thinking of how I can incorporate the participle forms into it. I may just make a few more lines in each one for present, future and aorist participles. It's probably going to become a very large file with time. But, I want to keep it up so that I have something to refer to when doing exercises (if I get stuck). I figured that this is how you could use it, too, if you want.

Regards,
Jason

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by daivid »

These are my stabs at zeta and eta.
(And thanks Jason for making the topic just Lesson 12α. That's much appreciated.)

12 Ζ
1 ) Dikaiopolis did not want to lead his wife to the town.

(ἡγήσασθαι is aorist because the wife wanted to actually get to the town to see the festival not merely to burn off calories. ἠθέλησε, I assume is aorist because his not wanting was only his first reaction – making it aorist leaves open the posibility that his mind may be changed)
2 ) The stranger having entered immediately asked for wine.
(straight forward completed action followed by another completed action hence both aorist)
3 ) Having made a libation, the priest prayed to the gods.
(same as 2 – butter the gods up first and then hit them with your request)
4 ) Despite the women having caught sight of the men did not stop shouting
(I used “caught sight of” as plain “saw” can be both perfective and imperfective as in standard English “were seeing” is frowned on. ἐπαύσαντο the sharp ceasing of an action is about as aorist as you can get. I clearly need more practice with feminine participles as at first glance βοῶσαι looked like an aorist to me – because of the s. It is the first present so far as far as I can see.
5 ) Come in, child, and greet your farther.
(Complete the first action and then do the second)
6 ) Come here, child, and tell me what you did.
(εἴσελθε-εἰπέ come right over here and then tell the whole story; ἐποίησας clearly something the adult suspects the child achieved or perpetrated rather than aimless play.)
7 ) The maiden having watched the chorus, hurried home.
(aorist again – she watched the chorus to the end and then reached home afterwards)
8 ) The master ordered the slaves to be silent, but the slaves did not stop chatting.
(the master gives single order expecting an immediate result – perhaps “shut up” gets the aorist-ness of σιγῆσαι better?- the only present is διαλεγόμενοι as an open ended conversation is being conveyed not a speech that can be completed.)
9 ) The sailors, having untied the ship, sailed out of the harbor.
(Well clearly the ship has to be completely untied before they sail out the harbor and they do get right out of the harbor.)
10 ) The messenger urged the citizens to be quiet and listen.
(Natural English doesn't really get the sense of the Greek “go into a state of being silent and listen to the end” would be closer. The aorist of σιγαω is a little different from that of the majority of verbs in that it refers to the initiation of a state that continues. It's the act of initiation that is completed hence perfective, that is to say aorist.)


12Η
1) ποιησάμενοι σπονδὴν καὶ ἐξομνύμενοι τοὺς θεοὺς, ἐβάδισαν εἰς τὸ ἄστυ.
2) ὁ πατὴρ ἐκέλευσε τὸν παῖδα πέμψαι τὸν κύνα οἴκαδε.
3) ἐβοήθησα μέν σοι, ἡγήσω δὲ ἐν κίνδυνον.
4) καλέσον τὴν σὴν μητέρα, ὦ παῖ, καὶ αἴτησον αὐτὴν ἡμᾶς δέξασθαι.
5) ὁ νεανίας νικήσας ἐδέξατο στέφανον.
6) ἐφικνούμενοι ἐν τὸ ἄστυ εἴδομεν πόλους ἄνδρας ἐν τάς ὁδούς ὄντας.
λονδον

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

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Exercise 12γ
1. δακρύω ➙ δακρύσω, ἐδάκρυσα
2. βλέπω ➙ βλέψομαι/βλέψω, ἔβλεψα
3. θαυμάζω ➙ θαυμάσομαι, ἐθαύμασα
4. ἀκούω ➙ ἀκούσομαι, ἤκουσα
5. δέχομαι ➙ δέξομαι, ἐδεξάμην
6. διώκω ➙ διώξω/διώξομαι, ἐδίωξα
7. νικάω ➙ νικήσω, ἐνίκησα
8. σπευδω ➙ σπεύσω, ἔσπευσα
9. κομίζω ➙ κομιῶ, ἐκόμισα
10. ἡγέομαι (ἡγοῦμαι) ➙ ἡγήσομαι, ἡγησάμην
11. βοηθέω (βοηθῶ) ➙ βοηθήσω, ἐβοήθησα
12. ἐθέλω ➙ ἐθελήσω, ἠθέλησα
13. παύω ➙ παύσω, ἔπαυσα
14. φυλάττω ➙ φυλάξω, ἐφύλαξα
15. πέμπω ➙ πέμψω, ἔπεμψα

Exercise 12ε
1. κελεύομεν ➙ ἐκελεύσαμεν
2. πέμπουσι(ν) ➙ ἔπεμψαν, πέμψασι(ν)
3. ἀκούετε ➙ ἠκούσατε
4. λύεται ➙ ἐλύσατο
5. εὐχόμενοι ➙ εὐξάμενοι
6. οἰκοῦμεν ➙ ᾠκήσαμεν
7. τιμᾷ ➙ ἐτίμησε(ν) (or ἐτιμήσω if in the middle voice)
8. δακρύων ➙ δακρύσας
9. κομίζω ➙ ἐκόμισα
10. βαδίζομεν ➙ ἐβαδίσαμεν
11. βοηθεῖν ➙ βοηθῆσαι
12. νικῶμεν ➙ ἐνικήσαμεν
13. ἡγούμενος ➙ ἡγησάμενος
14. δέχου ➙ δέξαι (imperative)
15. προσχωροῦσι(ν) ➙ προσεχώρησαν

Exercise 12ζ
1. Dicaeopolis did not wish to lead his wife to the city.
2. Having entered, the stranger immediately asked for wine.
3. Having made a drink offering, the priest prayed to the gods.
4. Although they saw (aor. part.) their husbands, the woman did not stop crying out.
5. Go inside, child, and call your father.
6. Come here, child, and tell me what you did.
7. Having watched the choruses, the girl hurried home.
8. The master ordered the slaves to be quite, but they did not stop conversing.
9. Having released the ship, the sailors sailed out of the harbor.
10. The herald ordered the citizens to be quiet (aor. part.) and listen.

Exercise 12η
1. σπονδὴν ποιησάμενοι καὶ τοῖς θεοῖς εὐξάμενοι πρὸς τὸ ἄστυ ἐβαδίσαμεν.
2. ὁ πατὴρ τὸν παῖδα ἐκέλευσε τὸν κύνα οἴκαδε πέμψαι.
3. ἐγὼ μὲν ἐβοήθησά σοι, σὺ δὲ ἡγήσω μοι εἰς κίνδυνον.
4. κάλεσον τὴν μητέρα, ὦ παῖ, καὶ αἴτησον αὐτὴν ἡμᾶς δέξασθαι.
5. ὁ νεανίας νικήσας στέφανον ἐδέξατο.
6. εἰς τὸ ἄστυ ἀφικόμενοι πολλοὺς [ἀνθρώπους] ἐν ταῖς ὁδοῖς εἴδομεν.
Last edited by jaihare on Sun May 10, 2015 8:05 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by jaihare »

While working on this, I found several verbs in the exercises that I hadn't included in the verb sheet. I filled out the sheet as I worked through it. If my tablet has synced properly, it should be uploaded and updated, but I can't be sure right now.

Let me know if there's anything that you don't find on the sheet.

Daivid - Do you want individual feedback on your work?

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

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daivid wrote:12 Ζ
1 ) Dikaiopolis did not want to lead his wife to the town.
(ἡγήσασθαι is aorist because the wife wanted to actually get to the town to see the festival not merely to burn off calories. ἠθέλησε, I assume is aorist because his not wanting was only his first reaction – making it aorist leaves open the posibility that his mind may be changed)
I’m not sure what the difference would be between imperfect (ἤθελεν) and aorist (ἠθέλησεν) in this case. As far as the infinitive (ἡγήσασθαι), it is best to think of the aorist as the standard form for infinitives and the present as having the continuous/progressive notion attached to it. In other words, λῦσαι is to release while λύειν is to be releasing. It shouldn’t always be translated this way, of course, but it’s better to think of it in these terms. You can’t assume anything about the wife’s desire to go based on the aorist form. In the infinitive, we need to detach the aorist from tense completely.
daivid wrote:2 ) The stranger having entered immediately asked for wine.
(straight forward completed action followed by another completed action hence both aorist)
3 ) Having made a libation, the priest prayed to the gods.
(same as 2 – butter the gods up first and then hit them with your request)
4 ) Despite the women having caught sight of the men did not stop shouting
(I used “caught sight of” as plain “saw” can be both perfective and imperfective as in standard English “were seeing” is frowned on. ἐπαύσαντο the sharp ceasing of an action is about as aorist as you can get. I clearly need more practice with feminine participles as at first glance βοῶσαι looked like an aorist to me – because of the s. It is the first present so far as far as I can see.
I like how you chose “despite” for καίπερ instead of “although” or “even though.” It allows for translation of the participle with -ing while maintaining the original meaning. I’ll certainly keep that in mind for the future. You are missing a personal pronoun in the sentence, however: “Despite the women having seen the men, (they) did not stop shouting.” I don’t know what I think about “caught sight of” for ἰδεῖν.
daivid wrote:5 ) Come in, child, and greet your farther.
(Complete the first action and then do the second)
If I’m standing inside the house, why can’t I call the man myself? I think the speaker is telling the child to go in (not come in)… because he’s standing outside and wants to child to go in the house and call his father. I don’t think “greet” is appropriate. He wants to call him so that he will come outside and help with something, it seems to me.
daivid wrote:6 ) Come here, child, and tell me what you did.
(εἴσελθε-εἰπέ come right over here and then tell the whole story; ἐποίησας clearly something the adult suspects the child achieved or perpetrated rather than aimless play.)
You’ve copied εἴσελθε from #5. In #6, it says simply ἐλθὲ δεῦρο. It’s curious to me, by the way, that the accent shifts from the ultima to the antepenult when the preposition is added to -ἐλθε in the imperative. I agree with the accusational tone of τί ἐποίησας. If it were not accusational, it would probably have been τί ἔπαθες (as if it happened to him and he didn’t do it himself).
daivid wrote:7 ) The maiden having watched the chorus, hurried home.
(aorist again – she watched the chorus to the end and then reached home afterwards)
It tells us that her watching came to an end before the main verb’s action, but it doesn’t tell us that the chorus came to an end. She watched (for however long), finished watching (even if she got tired of it in the middle) and left to hurry home.
daivid wrote:8 ) The master ordered the slaves to be silent, but the slaves did not stop chatting.
(the master gives single order expecting an immediate result – perhaps “shut up” gets the aorist-ness of σιγῆσαι better?- the only present is διαλεγόμενοι as an open ended conversation is being conveyed not a speech that can be completed.)
Don’t disagree.
daivid wrote:9 ) The sailors, having untied the ship, sailed out of the harbor.
(Well clearly the ship has to be completely untied before they sail out the harbor and they do get right out of the harbor.)
Agreed.
daivid wrote:10 ) The messenger urged the citizens to be quiet and listen.
(Natural English doesn't really get the sense of the Greek “go into a state of being silent and listen to the end” would be closer. The aorist of σιγαω is a little different from that of the majority of verbs in that it refers to the initiation of a state that continues. It's the act of initiation that is completed hence perfective, that is to say aorist.)
I’m not sure if you’re commenting on the fact that σιγήσαντας is a participle or not. It is showing us that participles can be attached to forms other than finite ones. In this case, it is attached to an infinitive – and the participle takes on the same force as the main verb on which it is dependent. In this case, since it’s an infinitive, the participle can also be translated with an infinitive. That is, “he ordered them, having quieted down, to listen” ➙ “he ordered them to quiet down and listen.”
daivid wrote:12Η
1) ποιησάμενοι σπονδὴν καὶ ἐξομνύμενοι τοὺς θεοὺς, ἐβάδισαν εἰς τὸ ἄστυ.
2) ὁ πατὴρ ἐκέλευσε τὸν παῖδα πέμψαι τὸν κύνα οἴκαδε.
3) ἐβοήθησα μέν σοι, ἡγήσω δὲ ἐν κίνδυνον.
4) καλέσον τὴν σὴν μητέρα, ὦ παῖ, καὶ αἴτησον αὐτὴν ἡμᾶς δέξασθαι.
5) ὁ νεανίας νικήσας ἐδέξατο στέφανον.
6) ἐφικνούμενοι ἐν τὸ ἄστυ εἴδομεν πόλους ἄνδρας ἐν τάς ὁδούς ὄντας.
1: Think of εἰς τὸ ἄστυ as “into the city” and πρὸς τὸ ἄστυ as “to/toward the city.” I think you should choose the latter. Also, who did the walking? Was it “they” or “we”? What form is ἐβάδισαν? The word that the book has given us for “pray” so far is εὔχομαι + dat.sd

3: Along those same lines, the leading woul be into danger (motion towards), which would make it εἰς + acc. rather than ἐν + dat. (ἐν is always followed by the dative).

6: “Having X-ed” leads me to take this as an aorist participle (ἀφικόμενοι) rather than a present one (ἀφικνούμενοι). This verb appears in collocation with εἰς + acc. to give us the meaning of “arrive at.” The accent on τάς should shift to grave, and after ἐν should be the dative (ἐν ταῖς ὁδοῖς) rather than the accusative. You don’t need ὄντας or ἄνδρας (which says men and not women). πολλοὺς ἐν ταῖς ὁδοῖς εἴδομεν conveys the meaning just fine.

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by jaihare »

jaihare wrote:Daivid - Do you want individual feedback on your work?
I was bored, so you got it whether you wanted it or not!

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by jaihare »

Where are Bruna and CanadianGirl? I'm ready to start 12β already! ;)

After spending > 3 months in chapter 11, it would be great to get through chapter 12 within a month!

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by daivid »

jaihare wrote:
jaihare wrote:Daivid - Do you want individual feedback on your work?
I was bored, so you got it whether you wanted it or not!
How could I not want it?!
Thanks very much for the feedback. I shall work thru all your points carefully.
λονδον

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by CanadianGirl »

Jaihare-slow down-I'm just now looking at 12 ! Regards, Paige.

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by brunapogliano »

Exercise 12γ
1. δακρύσω ἐδάκρυσα
2. βλέψομαι ἔβλεψα
3. θαυμάσομαι ἐθαύμασα
4. ἀκούσομαι ἤκουσα
5. δέξομαι ἐδεξάμην
6. διώξομαι ἐδίωξα
7. νικήσω ἐνίκησα
8. σπεύσω ἔσπευσα
9. κομιῶ ἐκόμισα
10. ἡγήσομαι ἡγησάμην
11. βοηθήσω ἐβοήθησα
12. ἐθελήσω ἠθέλησα
13. παύσω ἔπαυσα
14. φυλάξω ἐφύλαξα
15. πέμψω ἔπεμψα

Exercise 12δ
βλέψας βλέψασα βλέψαν
βλέψαντος βλεψάσης βλέψαντος
βλέψαντι βλεψάσῃ βλέψαντι
βλέψαντα βλέψασαν βλέψαν
βλέψας βλέψασα βλέψαν
βλέψαντε βλεψάσα βλέψαντε
βλεψάντοιν βλεψάσαιν βλεψάντοιν
βλέψαντες βλέψασαι βλέψαντα
βλεψάντων βλεψασῶν βλεψάντων
βλέψασιν βλεψάσαις βλέψασιν
βλέψαντας βλεψάσας βλέψαντα
βλέψαντες βλέψασαι βλέψαντα
ποιήσας ποιήσασα ποιῆσαν
ποιήσαντος ποιησάσης ποιήσαντος
ποιήσαντι ποιησάσῃ ποιήσαντι
ποιήσαντα ποιήσασαν ποιῆσαν
ποιήσας ποιήσασα ποιῆσαν
ποιήσαντε ποιησάσα ποιήσαντε
ποιησάντοιν ποιησάσαις ποιησάντοιν
ποιήσαντες ποιήσασαι ποιήσαντα
ποιησάντων ποιησασῶν ποιησάντων
ποιήσασιν ποιησάσαις ποιήσασιν
ποιήσαντας ποιησάσας ποιήσαντα
ποιήσαντες ποιήσασαι ποιήσαντα

Exercise 12ε
1. ἐκελεύσαμεν
2. ἔπεμψαν - πέμψασιν
3. ἠκούσατε
4. ἐλύσατο
5. ἠυξάμενοι
6. ᾠκέσαμεν
7. ἐτίμησε
8. δακρύσας
9. ἔκομισα
10. ἐβαδίσαμεν
11. βοηθῆσαι
12. νικήσαι
13. ἡγησάμενος
14. δέξαι
15. προσεχώρησαν προσχωρήσασι

Exercise 12ζ
1. Dicaeopolis did not wish to lead his wife to the city
2. After entering, the foreigner immediately asked for some wine
εἰσελθών: aorist participle for preceding action, completed
before the main clause
also: the foreigner asked for some wine right after walking into?
3. The priest prayed to gods after making a libation
ποιησάμενος: aorist partic. for preceding action
4. The women did not stop shouting, although they had seen/seeing the men
ἰδοῦσαι: aorist partic. Fem nom plur. For preceding action
βοῶσαι: aorist partic. Fem nom plur supplementary partic.
5. Come in, boy, and call your father
6. Come here, boy, and tell me what you did/have done
7. After watching the dances, the girl hurried home
θεασαμένη: middle aorist partic. for completed action
8. While the master ordered the slaves to be silent, these did not stop talking (to one another)
Dialegomenoi: supplementary aorist participle
9. After loosening the ship, the sailors sailed out of the port
λύσαντες: aor. Partic. for preceding action
10. The herald commanded the citizens to be silent and listen σιγήσαντας: circumstantial aor. Partic.

I really missed posting, and reading everybody's comments!
:D :D :D
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by daivid »

jaihare wrote:
daivid wrote:12 Ζ
1 ) Dikaiopolis did not want to lead his wife to the town.
(ἡγήσασθαι is aorist because the wife wanted to actually get to the town to see the festival not merely to burn off calories. ἠθέλησε, I assume is aorist because his not wanting was only his first reaction – making it aorist leaves open the posibility that his mind may be changed)
I’m not sure what the difference would be between imperfect (ἤθελεν) and aorist (ἠθέλησεν) in this case. As far as the infinitive (ἡγήσασθαι), it is best to think of the aorist as the standard form for infinitives and the present as having the continuous/progressive notion attached to it. In other words, λῦσαι is to release while λύειν is to be releasing. It shouldn’t always be translated this way, of course, but it’s better to think of it in these terms. You can’t assume anything about the wife’s desire to go based on the aorist form. In the infinitive, we need to detach the aorist from tense completely.
Well, the exercise did ask us to explain why the aorist was being used. And, can't the present infinitives sometimes cover habitual action and not just actions that would have a continuous sense according to English system of aspect?

I didn't actually say anything about the wife's desire. I wanted to contrast between a general open ended conviction that "no way am I going to a festival" (imperfective) to a reaction to the possibility being presented to him. In the story it is put to him by his wife and that isn't stated by the Greek here but it does seem to imply that Dikaiopolis has just been forced to consider his position without having thought much about it before. (Whether or not he is open to persuasion or not is on reflection a red herring).
jaihare wrote:
daivid wrote: 5 ) Come in, child, and greet your farther.
(Complete the first action and then do the second)
If I’m standing inside the house, why can’t I call the man myself? I think the speaker is telling the child to go in (not come in)… because he’s standing outside and wants to child to go in the house and call his father. I don’t think “greet” is appropriate. He wants to call him so that he will come outside and help with something, it seems to me.
Yes, I see that now. Thanks
jaihare wrote:
daivid wrote:7 ) The maiden having watched the chorus, hurried home.
(aorist again – she watched the chorus to the end and then reached home afterwards)
It tells us that her watching came to an end before the main verb’s action, but it doesn’t tell us that the chorus came to an end. She watched (for however long), finished watching (even if she got tired of it in the middle) and left to hurry home.
Thanks for that warning. In serbo-croat the perfective can have the sense of doing-a-thing-untill-one-has-had-ones-fill. Would that sense be possible here, or for that matter in Ancient Greek in general?

jaihare wrote:
daivid wrote:10 ) The messenger urged the citizens to be quiet and listen.
(Natural English doesn't really get the sense of the Greek “go into a state of being silent and listen to the end” would be closer. The aorist of σιγαω is a little different from that of the majority of verbs in that it refers to the initiation of a state that continues. It's the act of initiation that is completed hence perfective, that is to say aorist.)
I’m not sure if you’re commenting on the fact that σιγήσαντας is a participle or not. It is showing us that participles can be attached to forms other than finite ones. In this case, it is attached to an infinitive – and the participle takes on the same force as the main verb on which it is dependent. In this case, since it’s an infinitive, the participle can also be translated with an infinitive. That is, “he ordered them, having quieted down, to listen” ➙ “he ordered them to quiet down and listen.”
No I was only making a comment on the aorist-present/imperfect distinction but thanks for drawing my attention to the use of the infinitive.
jaihare wrote:
daivid wrote:12Η
1) ποιησάμενοι σπονδὴν καὶ ἐξομνύμενοι τοὺς θεοὺς, ἐβάδισαν εἰς τὸ ἄστυ.
2) ὁ πατὴρ ἐκέλευσε τὸν παῖδα πέμψαι τὸν κύνα οἴκαδε.
3) ἐβοήθησα μέν σοι, ἡγήσω δὲ ἐν κίνδυνον.
4) καλέσον τὴν σὴν μητέρα, ὦ παῖ, καὶ αἴτησον αὐτὴν ἡμᾶς δέξασθαι.
5) ὁ νεανίας νικήσας ἐδέξατο στέφανον.
6) ἐφικνούμενοι ἐν τὸ ἄστυ εἴδομεν πόλους ἄνδρας ἐν τάς ὁδούς ὄντας.
1: Think of εἰς τὸ ἄστυ as “into the city” and πρὸς τὸ ἄστυ as “to/toward the city.” I think you should choose the latter.
So would εἰς would be just the act of going thru the gates while also covers walking from further away and would get you into the city provided the aorist is used.
jaihare wrote: Also, who did the walking? Was it “they” or “we”? What form is ἐβάδισαν? The word that the book has given us for “pray” so far is εὔχομαι + dat.sd
Thanks
jaihare wrote: 3: Along those same lines, the leading woul be into danger (motion towards), which would make it εἰς + acc. rather than ἐν + dat. (ἐν is always followed by the dative).
Thanks. I went seriously awry there. :oops:
jaihare wrote: 6: “Having X-ed” leads me to take this as an aorist participle (ἀφικόμενοι) rather than a present one (ἀφικνούμενοι). This verb appears in collocation with εἰς + acc. to give us the meaning of “arrive at.” The accent on τάς should shift to grave, and after ἐν should be the dative (ἐν ταῖς ὁδοῖς) rather than the accusative.
Thanks
jaihare wrote:You don’t need ὄντας or ἄνδρας (which says men and not women). πολλοὺς ἐν ταῖς ὁδοῖς εἴδομεν conveys the meaning just fine.
Typical English-Greek overkill. Thanks for putting me right.
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by mwh »

"I’m not sure what the difference would be between imperfect (ἤθελεν) and aorist (ἠθέλησεν)."

ουκ ηθελεν “wasn’t willing,” ουκ ηθελησεν “refused.” (cf. ουκ εφη "denied")

(In the latter case, he didn’t do it. In the former, if he had to do it anyway he did it ουκ εθελων, against his will or involuntarily.)

Great job Jason!

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by jaihare »

mwh wrote:"I’m not sure what the difference would be between imperfect (ἤθελεν) and aorist (ἠθέλησεν)."

ουκ ηθελεν “wasn’t willing,” ουκ ηθελησεν “refused.” (cf. ουκ εφη "denied")

(In the latter case, he didn’t do it. In the former, if he had to do it anyway he did it ουκ εθελων, against his will or involuntarily.)

Great job Jason!
Wow! It's just like the difference between no quería ("he didn't want") and no quiso ("he refused") in Spanish.

In Spanish, the positive forms also have special meaning: quería ("he wanted") vs. quiso ("he tried"). Does this distinction carry through in Greek perhaps, in which ἤθελε(ν) would be "wanted" while ἠθέλησε(ν) would be "tried"? (Probably not, but I'm just surmising.)

Thanks, mwh! :)

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by jaihare »

brunapogliano wrote:I really missed posting, and reading everybody's comments!
:D :D :D
Me, too. Absolutely. I'll try to give you some feedback today or tomorrow. :)

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by daivid »

mwh wrote: ουκ ηθελεν “wasn’t willing,” ουκ ηθελησεν “refused.” (cf. ουκ εφη "denied")

(In the latter case, he didn’t do it. In the former, if he had to do it anyway he did it ουκ εθελων, against his will or involuntarily.)
Whenever I meet the aorist of ἐθέλω I shall remember those words -Thanks

And thanks Jason for flagging up - I didn't know I didn't know that.
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by jaihare »

jaihare wrote:
brunapogliano wrote:I really missed posting, and reading everybody's comments!
:D :D :D
Me, too. Absolutely. I'll try to give you some feedback today or tomorrow. :)
It's turned into a few more days. I'm in the middle of an emergency re-training course, and there is more studying than I anticipated. I'll get to it. Promise!

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by brunapogliano »

jaihare wrote:
It's turned into a few more days. I'm in the middle of an emergency re-training course, and there is more studying than I anticipated. I'll get to it. Promise!
no problem at all.
I'm still reading through your comments and everybody else's posts. I find those on the use and meaning of aorist enlightening.
Apart from memorizing endings etc. what I really need is this type of insight into syntax.
have a nice re-training week :)
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by jaihare »

You're absolutely right, Bruna.

Perhaps we should all do (have done) what Daivid did - explain why we chose the forms that we did for the verbs. Do you think that's a good idea? I can go back and give my rationale, if you want.

Jason

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by jaihare »

brunapogliano wrote:Exercise 12γ
1. δακρύσω ἐδάκρυσα
2. βλέψομαι ἔβλεψα
3. θαυμάσομαι ἐθαύμασα
4. ἀκούσομαι ἤκουσα
5. δέξομαι ἐδεξάμην
6. διώξομαι ἐδίωξα
7. νικήσω ἐνίκησα
8. σπεύσω ἔσπευσα
9. κομιῶ ἐκόμισα
10. ἡγήσομαι ἡγησάμην
11. βοηθήσω ἐβοήθησα
12. ἐθελήσω ἠθέλησα
13. παύσω ἔπαυσα
14. φυλάξω ἐφύλαξα
15. πέμψω ἔπεμψα
καλῶς γέγραφας, ὦ φίλη.
brunapogliano wrote:Exercise 12δ
βλέψας βλέψασα βλέψαν
βλέψαντος βλεψάσης βλέψαντος
βλέψαντι βλεψάσῃ βλέψαντι
βλέψαντα βλέψασαν βλέψαν
βλέψας βλέψασα βλέψαν
βλέψαντε βλεψάσα βλέψαντε
βλεψάντοιν βλεψάσαιν βλεψάντοιν
βλέψαντες βλέψασαι βλέψαντα
βλεψάντων βλεψασῶν βλεψάντων
βλέψασιν βλεψάσαις βλέψασιν
βλέψαντας βλεψάσας βλέψαντα
βλέψαντες βλέψασαι βλέψαντα
ποιήσας ποιήσασα ποιῆσαν
ποιήσαντος ποιησάσης ποιήσαντος
ποιήσαντι ποιησάσῃ ποιήσαντι
ποιήσαντα ποιήσασαν ποιῆσαν
ποιήσας ποιήσασα ποιῆσαν
ποιήσαντε ποιησάσα ποιήσαντε
ποιησάντοιν ποιησάσαις ποιησάντοιν
ποιήσαντες ποιήσασαι ποιήσαντα
ποιησάντων ποιησασῶν ποιησάντων
ποιήσασιν ποιησάσαις ποιήσασιν
ποιήσαντας ποιησάσας ποιήσαντα
ποιήσαντες ποιήσασαι ποιήσαντα
I didn’t do this portion of the text. I figured it could be kept for our own works. I think I’ll put together participle paradigms for each of the verbs along with what I’ve been working on.
brunapogliano wrote:Exercise 12ε
1. ἐκελεύσαμεν
2. ἔπεμψαν - πέμψασιν
3. ἠκούσατε
4. ἐλύσατο
5. ἠυξάμενοι
6. ᾠκέσαμεν
7. ἐτίμησε
8. δακρύσας
9. ἔκομισα
10. ἐβαδίσαμεν
11. βοηθῆσαι
12. νικήσαι
13. ἡγησάμενος
14. δέξαι
15. προσεχώρησαν προσχωρήσασι
#5: You should remove the augment for the infinitive and the participle. Thus, we should see εὐξάμενοι (with no augment).

#6: The ε of -έω verbs almost always lengthens before the sigma of the future and the aorist. Thus, we have οἰκήσομεν (future) and ᾠκήσαμεν (aorist).

#12: Does your book read νικῶμεν? If so, it should be ἐνικήσαμεν.
brunapogliano wrote:Exercise 12ζ
1. Dicaeopolis did not wish to lead his wife to the city
2. After entering, the foreigner immediately asked for some wine
εἰσελθών: aorist participle for preceding action, completed
before the main clause
also: the foreigner asked for some wine right after walking into?
3. The priest prayed to gods after making a libation
ποιησάμενος: aorist partic. for preceding action
4. The women did not stop shouting, although they had seen/seeing the men
ἰδοῦσαι: aorist partic. Fem nom plur. For preceding action
βοῶσαι: aorist partic. Fem nom plur supplementary partic.
5. Come in, boy, and call your father
6. Come here, boy, and tell me what you did/have done
7. After watching the dances, the girl hurried home
θεασαμένη: middle aorist partic. for completed action
8. While the master ordered the slaves to be silent, these did not stop talking (to one another)
Dialegomenoi: supplementary aorist participle
9. After loosening the ship, the sailors sailed out of the port
λύσαντες: aor. Partic. for preceding action
10. The herald commanded the citizens to be silent and listen σιγήσαντας: circumstantial aor. Partic.
Very nice job. I probably should have added reasons for the use of the aorist, as both you and Daivid have done.

Should we expect to see your English-to-Greek translations coming up? I was able to make a few corrections to my own contribution based on your work. Thanks for the hard work that you do. :)

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by brunapogliano »

jaihare wrote:καλῶς γέγραφας, ὦ φίλη.
thank you so much!
jaihare wrote:Should we expect to see your English-to-Greek translations coming up? I was able to make a few corrections to my own contribution based on your work. Thanks for the hard work that you do. :)
I have only one left from 12a if I'm not wrong. I'll do my best to post it by next week, as for your other comments I'll go through them and let you know if anything is different.
have a nice week
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by brunapogliano »

jaihare wrote:You're absolutely right, Bruna.

Perhaps we should all do (have done) what Daivid did - explain why we chose the forms that we did for the verbs. Do you think that's a good idea? I can go back and give my rationale, if you want.

Jason
I think it would be a wonderful idea. Time is the only problem.
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by brunapogliano »

jaihare wrote:Exercise 12ε#5:[/b] You should remove the augment for the infinitive and the participle. Thus, we should see εὐξάμενοι (with no augment)
#6: The ε of -έω verbs almost always lengthens before the sigma of the future and the aorist. Thus, we have οἰκήσομεν (future) and ᾠκήσαμεν (aorist)
you're right both times, thank you
#7: I suppose you have already fixed your ἐτιμήσω, haven't you?
#12:[/b] Does your book read νικῶμεν? If so, it should be ἐνικήσαμεν.
it does, I wonder what I was thinking of

and this is my attempt to
Exercise 12η
1. Σπονδὴν ποιησάμενοι καὶ τοὺς θεοὺς εὐξάμενοι πρὸς τὸ ἄστυ ἐβαδίσαμεν
I wonder whether either of the following would be correct, and if so, how would meaning differ?Σπονδὴν ποιησαμένων καὶ τοὺς θεοὺς εὐξαμένων.....
Ὡς σπονδὴν ποιησαμένων καὶ τοὺς θεοὺς εὐξαμένων
2. Ὁ πατὴρ ἐκέλευσε τὸν παῖδα τὸν κύνα οἴκαδε πέμψαι
3. Ἐγὼ μέν σοι ἐβοήθησα, σὺ δέ μοι εἰς κινδύνους ἡγήσω
4. Τὴν μητέρα κάλεσον, ὦ παῖ, καὶ αὐτῇ αἴτησον ἡμᾶς δέξασθαι
5. Ὁ νεανίας νικήσας στέφανον ἐδέξατο
6. Εἰς τὸ ἄστυ ἀφικόμενοι πολλοὺς ἀνθρώπους ἐν ταῖς ὁδαῖς εἴδομεν

No need to revise this work, I'm going to cross-check it against yours and Daivid right after posting.
I'll just come up with questions if I have any.
:D
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by brunapogliano »

cross-checked, spotted and fixed three mistakes.
but I'd like to get some comment on my question about #1. alternative translations.
thank you :D
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by mwh »

The participles would be genitive (gen. absolute) only if they referred to someone other than the subject. Noms. are needed here; that identifies them with the subject of the main verb.

ὡς lends a participle (and other parts of speech) a certain nuance, something like “on the grounds that they had made a libation …” or “as if they had …” (lit. "as having …"). It wouldn’t be appropriate here.

Oh, and you want τοῖς θεοῖς dative. My eye catches another case error in #4.

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by jaihare »

mwh wrote:The participles would be genitive (gen. absolute) only if they referred to someone other than the subject. Noms. are needed here; that identifies them with the subject of the main verb.

ὡς lends a participle (and other parts of speech) a certain nuance, something like “on the grounds that they had made a libation …” or “as if they had …” (lit. "as having …"). It wouldn’t be appropriate here.

Oh, and you want τοῖς θεοῖς dative. My eye catches another case error in #4.
We have learned a construction with ὡς + fut. part. that means "in order to."

ὡς λυσόμενος - in order to redeem
ὡς ποιησόμενος - in order to make
ὡς εὑρήσων - in order to find

Do you not find this used in Greek texts?

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by mwh »

Yes certainly you find it, though not as often the grammar books might lead you to think. I was responding to Bruna’s proposed use of ὡς with aorist participle, not with future. The tense makes all the difference. It is basically the same use of ὡς, however.

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by brunapogliano »

I thank you both, your comments and explanations have improved my knowledge on this point.
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by jaihare »

brunapogliano wrote:Exercise 12η
1. Σπονδὴν ποιησάμενοι καὶ τοὺς θεοὺς εὐξάμενοι πρὸς τὸ ἄστυ ἐβαδίσαμεν
I wonder whether either of the following would be correct, and if so, how would meaning differ?
Σπονδὴν ποιησαμένων καὶ τοὺς θεοὺς εὐξαμένων.....
Ὡς σπονδὴν ποιησαμένων καὶ τοὺς θεοὺς εὐξαμένων
mwh already mentioned the difference between the circumstantial use of the participle (the first offering you have given here) and the genitive absolute, as well as the mistake with the cases (τοὺς θεοὺς ▸ τοῖς θεοῖς). I don’t really have anything left to comment on here. ;)
brunapogliano wrote:2. Ὁ πατὴρ ἐκέλευσε τὸν παῖδα τὸν κύνα οἴκαδε πέμψαι
3. Ἐγὼ μέν σοι ἐβοήθησα, σὺ δέ μοι εἰς κινδύνους ἡγήσω
Excellent.
brunapogliano wrote:4. Τὴν μητέρα κάλεσον, ὦ παῖ, καὶ αὐτῇ αἴτησον ἡμᾶς δέξασθαι
I’m rather sure that αἰτέω is followed by an accusative rather than a dative. αἰτῶ τινά τι ποιῆσαι “I ask someone to do something,” in which the accusative is used both for the object of αἰτέω and also for the object of ποιέω (the verb that completes it). We could look this up, but I’m pretty sure that’s the case. [αὐτῇ ▸ αὐτήν]
brunapogliano wrote:5. Ὁ νεανίας νικήσας στέφανον ἐδέξατο
6. Εἰς τὸ ἄστυ ἀφικόμενοι πολλοὺς ἀνθρώπους ἐν ταῖς ὁδαῖς εἴδομεν
Notice that ὁδός is in the second declension; it has an omicron stem even though it is feminine. [ταῖς ὁδαῖς ▸ ταῖς ὁδοῖς]
brunapogliano wrote:No need to revise this work, I'm going to cross-check it against yours and Daivid right after posting.
Too bad! That would take the fun out of it!

It is proper to add a period at the end of every sentence – even for Greek. ;) It indicates the end of the thought and/or the end of the line. I feel the sentence is incomplete without it. Would you mind? As a favor to me and my anal-retentiveness?

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by brunapogliano »

Jason:
mwh already mentioned the difference between the circumstantial use of the participle (the first offering you have given here) and the genitive absolute, as well as the mistake with the cases (τοὺς θεοὺς ▸ τοῖς θεοῖς). I don’t really have anything left to comment on here. ;)
yes, thank you I had already found out and fixed the mistakes after cross-checking with your work.
I’m rather sure that αἰτέω is followed by an accusative rather than a dative. αἰτῶ τινά τι ποιῆσαι “I ask someone to do something,” in which the accusative is used both for the object of αἰτέω and also for the object of ποιέω (the verb that completes it). We could look this up, but I’m pretty sure that’s the case. [αὐτῇ ▸ αὐτήν]
no need to check: you're right, I knew then I forgot.
Notice that ὁδός is in the second declension; it has an omicron stem even though it is feminine. [ταῖς ὁδαῖς ▸ ταῖς ὁδοῖς]
same as before, I know and well too. Trying to manage all words, verbs and their tenses sometimes leads to making stupid mistakes.
brunapogliano wrote:
No need to revise this work, I'm going to cross-check it against yours and Daivid right after posting.
Too bad! That would take the fun out of it!
I just wanted to spare you some work. But you did it all the same and I appreciated that.
It is proper to add a period at the end of every sentence – even for Greek. ;) It indicates the end of the thought and/or the end of the line. I feel the sentence is incomplete without it. Would you mind? As a favor to me and my anal-retentiveness?
I'll try, I've done it in this post. As a personal favor to you. I may forget at times though.
Thank you and have a nice week.
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by jaihare »

CanadianGirl wrote:Jaihare-slow down-I'm just now looking at 12 ! Regards, Paige.
Well, I opened the thread on April 27. You wrote your "slow down" comment on May 2. It's now May 19 (almost three weeks since you told me to slow down). I need to know that you're engaging with the chapter so that I can have hope for making progress. As it is, the thread is just sitting here. In another week, this thread will be one month old, and that's for just the first part of chapter 12.

If you're working on it, I don't have a problem waiting, but it feels like you're not working on it and we're just waiting on hold. The longer we wait, the longer our course. It would be nice to know that we'll get into the second level at some point. ;)

What do you say? Can we commit to a set number of hours per week of study so that we can at least take only two weeks per lesson thread? If we set a two-week "due date," then we can have some type of prediction of where we will be when we get finished with level one - and maybe even predict our completion of level two!

Is two weeks for half a lesson not enough?

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by jaihare »

Here are the statistics regarding how long we have spent on each chapter of Athenaze since we started this study together:

Ch. 1 - 24 days
Ch. 2 - 4 days (seriously?!)
Ch. 3 - 9 days
Ch. 4 - 8 days
Ch. 5 - 12 days
Ch. 6 - 17 days
Ch. 7 - 20 days
Ch. 8 - 42 days
Ch. 9 - 34 days
Ch. 10 - 40 days
Ch. 11 - 67 days
Ch. 12α - 22 days (so far)

Total days since we started the study have been 299. This means that just a little while longer and we'll have been at it a year already. In a sense, this is good. We've been sticking with it - and that's always a good thing. In another sense, though, it means that we could be at Athenaze a total of five years or so if we keep letting our lessons take longer and longer. We were doing them relatively quickly, but since chapter 8 the work has been going longer and longer. 42 days in one chapter. 34 days in another. To the point that we spent a whopping 67 days in chapter 11!

We need to keep some kind of pace so that we don't spend half a year in chapter 13...

Wouldn't you agree?

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by brunapogliano »

jaihare wrote: Total days since we started the study have been 299. This means that just a little while longer and we'll have been at it a year already. In a sense, this is good. We've been sticking with it - and that's always a good thing. In another sense, though, it means that we could be at Athenaze a total of five years or so if we keep letting our lessons take longer and longer. We were doing them relatively quickly, but since chapter 8 the work has been going longer and longer. 42 days in one chapter. 34 days in another. To the point that we spent a whopping 67 days in chapter 11!

We need to keep some kind of pace so that we don't spend half a year in chapter 13...

Wouldn't you agree?
Thank you for the stats Jason.
I don't really mind taking long, as long as we keep it going. I understand your point, on the other hand we are all people with lives and jobs and families to cope with. It is very hard at times.
I have often been late or taken longer than expected, but while we're waiting we can start working on the second part, so that when you open the thread all we need to do is paste our works and start comparing.
For me, it'd be ok also if we went on, provided that we keep track and give feedback to those who are behind.
Isn't this goodwill?
Just out of curiosity, what comes after Level 2?
:D
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by daivid »

jaihare wrote: Perhaps we should all do (have done) what Daivid did - explain why we chose the forms that we did for the verbs. Do you think that's a good idea? I can go back and give my rationale, if you want.
It is definitely worth doing stuff like that as it makes you think more deeply about why. Sometimes with Greek into English exercises you can get the right answer for the wrong reason. But it does take oodles more time so if you are short of time it makes sense to just do the sentences.
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by daivid »

CanadianGirl wrote:Jaihare-slow down-I'm just now looking at 12 ! Regards, Paige.
Why not give us what you have done so far, however small. It finding time to do something is a problem, breaking it down into smaller bits always helps IMO.
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by jaihare »

brunapogliano wrote:Thank you for the stats Jason.
No problem.
brunapogliano wrote:I don't really mind taking long, as long as we keep it going. I understand your point, on the other hand we are all people with lives and jobs and families to cope with. It is very hard at times.
Absolutely. But, we should be careful not to let it get away from us. To learn a language, we need to review and practice a lot. And I think we just don't get that done when we're taking two months to do one chapter. If we were doing pieces here and pieces, that would be better (and we can always edit our original posts on this forum). We just can't not practice for a month at a time. I'm simply concerned with the benefit of such a method of learning.

As it is, I'm at an advantage, since I'm also leading a study of Greek to GCSE on another forum and working through Greek: An Intensive Course, so I'm pretty much constantly challenging myself to learn a bit more and push a bit further. But, sometimes my Athenaze text sits on the shelf for a month without being touched, and that disheartens me.
brunapogliano wrote:I have often been late or taken longer than expected, but while we're waiting we can start working on the second part, so that when you open the thread all we need to do is paste our works and start comparing.
For me, it'd be ok also if we went on, provided that we keep track and give feedback to those who are behind.
Isn't this goodwill?
Absolutely. In our GCSE group, we have a "due date" every week (Saturday night) and if someone falls behind, they feel fine to work back up to the group or do it at their own pace. We don't have such an agreement in this study, though, and it's kinda hard to maintain attention among the other threads on the forum - since our threads get buried if we don't keep them active. A participant might not even be able to see which threads they're working on - where they've finished and not - simply because they don't see the threads at the head of the thread list. (Our GCSE group is in a devoted sub-forum on another site, where every single thread has to do with the study and nothing interrupts the flow.)
brunapogliano wrote:Just out of curiosity, what comes after Level 2?
:D
Perhaps we'll choose a reader to work through, reading and translating. There is a reader in the GCSE series called Greek Beyond GCSE which might be appropriate (and I already have a copy of it!). We'll decide when we get there. It would be nice to work through some real author at some point. I'd personally be interested in the works of Philo or Josephus.

Best regards,
J.

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by jaihare »

daivid wrote:
jaihare wrote: Perhaps we should all do (have done) what Daivid did - explain why we chose the forms that we did for the verbs. Do you think that's a good idea? I can go back and give my rationale, if you want.
It is definitely worth doing stuff like that as it makes you think more deeply about why. Sometimes with Greek into English exercises you can get the right answer for the wrong reason. But it does take oodles more time so if you are short of time it makes sense to just do the sentences.
In my GCSE work today (a short translation passage on the Locrian legal process written in simple Greek - using only the present indicative), I inserted footnotes to explain how the conditionals would really work (instead of [εἰ + pres. ind., pres. ind.], the present general conditional is [ἐάν + subj., pres. ind.], for example) and why I translated certain present tense forms as if they were historical presents. Maybe I'll start adding some bits of notes in my work on Athenaze here. You were certainly on to something.

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by jaihare »

daivid wrote:
CanadianGirl wrote:Jaihare-slow down-I'm just now looking at 12 ! Regards, Paige.
Why not give us what you have done so far, however small. It finding time to do something is a problem, breaking it down into smaller bits always helps IMO.
I think it would be best to start working by posting what you've got, then go back and edit the original post rather than replying to the thread again - to keep all the work together. Changes can be made again and again to the post using the edit feature.

And if you want feedback on the new work, you can let us know that you've edited it by replying to the thread and saying, "I've added 12δ to my work above. Could you look over it for me?" and then it'll be done. :)

That would make sure that we don't miss anything.

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α-Still here

Post by CanadianGirl »

Hey-Just wanted to affirm that I'm still here-way behind but i'm carrying Athenaze around with me. I will catch up eventually. Hope everybody is well.

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12α

Post by CanadianGirl »

Jaihare-Should have added-Thanks for the suggestion, that makes sense. Take care.

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