Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

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jaihare
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Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

Post by jaihare »

This is the template for 12β of Athenaze. Good luck!

Exercise 12θ
Don't forget to fill out verb charts as we go along. In this lesson, you should do one for ἀποκτείνω and ἀποκρίνομαι in the aorist.

Exercise 12ι
Change these into the aorist, keeping the same person, number and gender as appropriate. There is one that says it has two options. Provide both options.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.

Exercise 12κ
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

Exercise 12λ
Change all of these to the aorist first-person singular.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.

Exercise 12μ
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

Exercise 12ν
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.

QUESTION: Do you think the second part of each chapter should be broken up into two parts? Is this too much for one thread?

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

Post by jaihare »

What do you guys make of the combination of μέλλω and the future infinitive, as in the second paragraph of the reading of 12β? This is the line:

ἆρ᾿ οἶσθα εἴ τις ναῦς πάρεστι μέλλουσα πρὸς τὴν Ἐπίδαυρον πλεύσεσθαι;
Do you know if there is here a ship being about (μέλλουσα) about to sail (πλεύσεσθαι) to Epidaurus?

Why would the idea of “about to” be repeated here? Both μέλλω and the future infinitive carry the idea of “about to,” so it seems redundant to me. It could have been written as either of the following:

... εἴ τις ναῦς πάρεστι μέλλουσα πρὸς τὴν Ἐπίδαυρον πλεῖν/πλεῦσαι; (with the present or aorist infinitive)
... εἴ τις ναῦς πάρεστι πρὸς τὴν Ἐπίδαυρον πλευσομένη; (without μέλλω)

Both of these options would still retain the “about to” sense without redundancy. Would you agree?

Thanks!
Jason

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

Post by jaihare »

I’ve updated my verb sheet to include all of the verbs in 12β.

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

Post by jaihare »

Exercise 12ι
1. αἴρειν → ἆραι
2. ἐγείρει → ἤγειρε(ν)
3. μένουσα → μείνασα
4. ἀποκρίνεται → ἀπεκρίθη / ἀπεκρίνατο
5. ἀποκρινόμενος → ἀποκρινάμενος
6. μένε → μεῖνον
7. ἀποκτείνειν → ἀποκτεῖναι
8. αἴρων → ἄρας
9. μένειν → μεῖναι
10. αἴρομεν → ἤραμεν
11. ἐγείρων → ἐγείρας
12. ἀποκρίνου → ἀπόκριναι
13. ἀποκρίνεται → ἀπεκρίθη / ἀπεκρίνατο
14. ἀποκρίνεσθαι → ἀποκρίνασθαι
15. ἀποκτείνουσι(ν) → ἀπέκτειναν OR ἀποκτείνασι(ν)

Exercise 12κ
1. Lying upon the ground, grandfather wished to sleep.
ἠθέλησε(ν). Sigmatic first aorist. Irregular. Behaves like an α or ε contract (α/ε ▸η before sigma of first aorist).

2. But running toward him, Philip roused him.
προσδραμών. Second aorist. Stem change (pres. τρεχ- ▸ aor. δραμ-).
ἤγειρε(ν). Liquid. Asigmatic first aorist. Irregular. Stem change (fut. ἐγερ- ▸ aor. ἐγειρ-).

3. He said, “Why did you rouse me, boy?” And Philip said, “A wolf is rushing upon the sheep.”
ἤγειρας. Liquid. Asigmatic first aorist. Irregular. Stem change (fut. ἐγερ- ▸ aor. ἐγειρ-).
ἔφη. Irregular from φημί (ἔφην, ἔφησθα, ἔφη, ἔφαμεν, ἔφατε, ἔφασαν). There seems to be ambiguity among aorist and imperfect forms. Thus, Attic writers tended to use ἔφησα etc. for the aorist and ἔφασκον (from φάσκω) for the imperfect. See LSJ on φημί for more information. Note that LSJ lists ἔφην as aorist, even though the Perseus search tool lists it as imperfect. The Sphinx paradigms also list ἔφην as imperfect and have ἔφησα as a first aorist.

4. Grandfather said, “Call Argos and ward off the wolf from the sheep.”
κάλεσον. Irregular. The contract vowel (ε) is not lengthened before the σ of the first aorist (καλέω ▸ ἐκάλεσα). Cp. λῦσον.
ἔφη. See above (#3).
ἄμυνον. Nasal. Asigmatic first aorist. Cp. λῦσον.

5. So having called Argos, Philip hurried up the hill.
καλέσας. See above (#4). Cp. ποιήσας.
ἔσπευσε(ν). Regular first aorist. Stem δ drops before σ of the tense formative. (ἔ-σπευδ-σα ▸ ἔσπευσα).

6. So while Argos, barking wildly, chased the wolf, Philip, having picked up stones, pelted it.
ἐδίωξε(ν). Regular first aorist. Stem κ combines with σ of the tense formative (ἐ-δίωκ-σα ▸ ἐδίωξα).
ἄρας. Liquid. Asignmatic first aorist.
ἔβαλε(ν). Liquid. Second aorist. Stem change (pres. βαλλ- ▸ aor. βαλ).

7. And soon Argos took the wolf with his teeth, and Philip killed it with his dagger.
ἔσχεν. Irregular. Aorist of ἔχω.
ἀπέκτεινε(ν). Irregular. Nasal. Asigmatic first aorist. Stem change (fut. ἀποκτενε- ▸ aor. ἀποκτειν-). Cp. μενῶ (future) ▸ ἔμεινα (aorist).

8. Having arrived at the top of the hill, grandfather said, “Well indeed have you (pl) bravely warded off the wolf from the sheep.
ἀφικόμενος. Irregular. Second aorist middle (ἀφῑκόμην). Notice that the long ι (ῑ) represents the augmentation in this verb.
ἔφη. See above (#3).
ἠμύνατε. See above (#4). Cp. ἐλύσατε.

9. “And now you stay here, while I will return home; for I want to announce to your mother what happened.”
μεῖνον. Nasal. Asigmatic first aorist. Cp. λῦσον.
ἐπάνειμι. Irregular future (εἶμι = “I will go”).
βούλομαι. Regular present indicative middle/passive.
ἀγγεῖλαι. Liquid. Asigmatic first aorist. Stem change (pres. ἀγγελλ- ▸ aor. ἀγγειλ-). Cp. λῦσαι.
ἐγένετο. Nasal. Irregular aorist indicative middle. Stem change (pres. γιγν- ▸ aor. γεν- – that is, γίγνομαι ▸ ἐγενόμην).

10. So, it seemed right to Philip to lead the sheep into the sheepfold.
ἔδοξε(ν). Irregular. Loss of contract vowel (pres. δοκε- ▸ fut./aor. δοκ- – that is, δοκεῖ ▸ δόξει/ἔδοξε(ν)). Impersonal third-person.
εἰσελάσαι. Irregular. Stem change (pres. ἐλαυν- ▸ aor. ἐλα-).

Exercise 12λ
1. προσχωρέω → προσεχώρησα
2. ἐκπέμπω → ἐξέπεμψα
3. ἀποφεύγω → ἀπέφυγον
4. ἀποκρίνομαι → ἀπεκρινάμην / ἀπεκρίθην
5. εἰσπέμπω → εἰσέπεμψα
6. ἀποκτείνω → ἀπέκτεινα
7. εἰσκομίζω → εἰσεκόμισα
8. συνέρχομαι → συνῆλθον
9. συλλαμβάνω → συνέλαβον

Exercise 12μ
1. Having lifted the stones, the slaves threw them out of the field.
2. Having led the oxen out of the field, the master summoned the slaves.
3. Whereas the master sent the slaves away, he himself remained in the field.
4. Having abandoned the plow in the field, the slaves quickly returned home.
5. Having seen her father, the girl quickly approached and asked why he was (historical present) not returning home.
6. And he answered that it was necessary (historical present) to be plowing the field.
7. The young men did not run away, but instead they fought bravely.
8. The messenger announced that many had died in the battle.
9. Having prepared the ship, the sailors sailed out of the harbor.
10. Fearing the storm, it seemed right to the captain to return to the harbor.

Exercise 12ν
1. ἐπεὶ ἐπανῆλθεν ὁ Κωλαῖος, τοῖς Ἕλλησιν ἤγγειλε τί ἐγένετο.
OR, ὁ Κωλαῖος οἴκαδε ἐπανελθὼν ἤγγειλε τοῖς Ἕλλησι τὰ γενόμενα.
2. ἐθαύμασαν πάντες, καὶ πολλοὶ ἀκούσαντες ὅτι ὁ Ἀργαθώνιος μάλα ὄλβιός ἐστιν ἐβούλοντο εἰς τὸν Τάρτησσον πλεῖν.
3. ἔδοξεν αὐτοῖς εὐθὺς ὁρμᾶσθαι· τέσσαρας δὲ ναῦς παρασκευάσαντες ἀπέπλευσαν.
4. πολλὰ καὶ δεινὰ παθόντες, τέλος εἰς τὸν Τάρτησσον ἀφίκοντο.
5. ὁ βασιλεὺς ἐδέξατο αὐτοὺς εὐμενῶς καὶ πολὺν ἀργύριον καὶ πολὺν καττίτερον παρέσχεν αὐτοῖς.
6. ἔπειτα δ᾿ οἱ Ἕλληνες πολύν τινα χρόνον ἐμπορίαν ἐποιοῦντο πρὸς τοὺς τοῦ Ταρτήσσου πολίτας.
Last edited by jaihare on Sun Jun 07, 2015 1:12 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

Post by brunapogliano »

I am here, this is my
Exercise 12ι
1. ἆραι
2. ἤγειρε
3. μείνασα
4. απεκρίνατο
5. φηνάμενος
6. μεῖνον
7. ἀποκτεῖναι
8. ἄρας
9. μεῖναι
10. ἤραμεν
11. ἠγείρας
12. ἀπεκρίνω
13. ἐφήνατο
14. ἀποκρίνασθαι
15. ἀπέκτειναν - αποκτείνασι

working on the others, I'll post each as soon as I have it ready.

thanks Jason and Daivid for your comments and extensive revision work. I read what you wrote Canadian Girl and it was good revision for me too. :)
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

Post by daivid »

Αθηεναζε 12 β
Exercise κ
1) The grandfather, lying on the ground, wished to sleep.
2) But Philip running towards (him) woke him.
3) And he (said) “Why did you wake me,” and Philip said “A wolf is throwing itself (ie attacking) against the sheep.”
4) And the grandfather said “Call upon Argos and ward off the wolf from the sheep”.
5) Philip therefore having called Argos rushed up the hill.
6) While therefore Argos fiercely barking pursued the wolf, Philip seizing stones pelted it.
7 ) And, shortly, Argos had the wolf by his teeth and Philip with a sword killed it.
8 ) The grandfather arriving at the top of the hill said “Well done! you lot have warded off the wolf from the sheep.
9 ) And now you stay here and I will return home, for I want to announce to (your) mother what happened.
10 ) Philip decided (it seemed to Philip fitting) to drive the sheep into the sheep pen.

Exercise μ
1) The slaves having picked up the stones threw them out of the field.
2) The master drove the oxen into the field having called the slaves.
3) The master, while sending away the slaves, remained in the field.
4) The slaves, leaving the plow behind, quickly returned home.
5) The maiden having seen her father approached and asked why he wasn't returning home.
6)And he replied that it was necessary to plow the field.
7 ) The youths did not flee but bravely fought.
8 ) The messenger announced that many in the battle had died.
9 ) The sailors having got ready sailed out of the harbor.
10) The captain fearing the storm decided to return to the harbor.

Exercise ν
1) ἐπεὶ Κωλαῖος ἐπάνελθε εἰπὲ τοῖς Ἕλλησι τά γενόμενα.
2) πάντα ἐθαύμασεν καὶ πολλοὶ ακουσαντες Ἀγαθωνιον ὄλβιον εἶναι ἐβούλοντο πλεῦσαι εἴς Τάρτησσον.
3) αὐτοῖς ἔδοξε ὁρμάν εὐθὺς παρασκευάσαντες τέταρτον τέταρτα πλοῖα ἐξέπλευσαν.
4) παθόντες πολλὰ δεινὰ τέλος ἀφίκοντο εἰς Τάρτησσον.
5) ὁ βασιλεὺς ἐδείξατο αὐτοὺς καὶ παρέσχε αὐτοῖς ἀργύριον καὶ καττίτερον.
6) ἔπειτα οἱ Ἕλληνες διὰ πολλοῦ ἐμπορίαν ἐποιοῦντο πρὸς τοὺς τοῦ Τάρτησσου πολίτας.
Last edited by daivid on Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:31 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

Post by jaihare »

Which pages are missing? I can send you scans of the pages.

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

Post by brunapogliano »

This is my work so far:
Exercise 12κ
The book says "Identify liquid, nasal and irregular stems" so I wrote notes below each sentence

1. Grandfather, lying on the ground, wanted to sleep
ἠθέλησε: irregular aor. with liquid verb stem + η + σε
but: what’s the difference between ἤθελε (he kept wishing to manage some sleep?) and this
aorist (he had decided before lying/while he was lying he made up his mind?) or am I just taking
it too seriously?

2. But Philip approached and woke him up.
προσδραμών: aorist part. of προστρέχω – preceding action
ἤγειρεν: liquid stem, loss of sigma and comp. lengthening - completed action, perfective aspect

3. And the father asked: “Why did you wake me up, son?” Philip answered: “A wolf is attacking the
sheep”.
ἤγειρας: see ἤγειρεν in stc. N. 2
ἔφη: from φημί, perfective aspect

4. And the grandfather: “Call to Argos, he said, and ward off the wolf from the sheep.”
κάλεσον: aorist imperat. 2nd singular – irreg. short epsilon – perfective aspect
ἄμυνον: aor. imperat. 2nd sing. – nasal stem - perfective

5. So Philip, having called to Argos, hurried up onto the mountain.
καλέσας: aor. partic. for preceding action

6. While Argos ran after the wolf barking wildly, picking up some stones Philip threw them at the
wolf.
ἄρας: liquid stem – aor. partic. – simple, preceding action

7. Shortly after, Argos caught hold of the wolf with his teeth and Philip killed him with his knife.
ἀπέκτεινεν: nasal stem - perfective

8. Having arrived at the top of the mountain, the grandfather said: “Very well, you warded the
wolf bravely off the sheep .“
ἠμύνατε: nasal stem - perfective

9. “Now, stay here while I’ll go back home, for I wish to tell your mother what happened.”
μεῖνον: nasal stem – aor. imperat. 2nd sing – simple action
ἀγγεῖλαι: liquid stem – aor. infin. – simple action

10. So Philip thought good to drive the sheep into the sheepfold.
ἔδοξε: irreg. aorist – loss of stem ε, thus no contraction – perfective
εἰσελάσαι: irreg. aorist, much could be said about the variants of this verb, short alpha in the
stem, so paroxytone – simple action


Exercise 12λ
1. προσεχώρησα
2. ἐξέπεμψα
3. ἀπέφυγον
4. ἀπεκρινάμην
5. εἰσέπεμψα
6. ἀπέκτεινα
7. εἰσεκόμισα
8. συνῆλθον
9. συνέλαβον

I'm presently about two thirds into 12μ and I suppose 12ν will take long as usual.
I leave my comments on
ἆρ᾿ οἶσθα εἴ τις ναῦς πάρεστι μέλλουσα πρὸς τὴν Ἐπίδαυρον πλεύσεσθαι;
for another post.
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

Post by daivid »

jaihare wrote:Which pages are missing? I can send you scans of the pages.
False alarm. The pdf viewer confused me. :oops: I may take up your offer though for when we get on to volume 2. I do have volume 2 but being a British edition is unlikely to have the same exercises.
(Though I might be able to get a copy of the America edition by then.)

Now having the exercises I shall try and get them done today.
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

Post by jaihare »

daivid wrote:
jaihare wrote:Which pages are missing? I can send you scans of the pages.
False alarm. The pdf viewer confused me. :oops: I may take up your offer though for when we get on to volume 2. I do have volume 2 but being a British edition is unlikely to have the same exercises.
(Though I might be able to get a copy of the America edition by then.)

Now having the exercises I shall try and get them done today.
Excellent. Can you edit the post above and just put it all together in the one post - and then I'll give you some feedback? :)

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

Post by jaihare »

brunapogliano wrote:Exercise 12κ
The book says "Identify liquid, nasal and irregular stems" so I wrote notes below each sentence
I don't know how it is that I always miss these things. I need to be more careful about it. I just go straight through with the translations. I'll go back and fill in this stuff before I compare our answers.

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

Post by jaihare »

brunapogliano wrote:I leave my comments on
ἆρ᾿ οἶσθα εἴ τις ναῦς πάρεστι μέλλουσα πρὸς τὴν Ἐπίδαυρον πλεύσεσθαι;
for another post.
Looking forward to that!

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

Post by daivid »

jaihare wrote:
daivid wrote:
Now having the exercises I shall try and get them done today.
Excellent. Can you edit the post above and just put it all together in the one post - and then I'll give you some feedback? :)
The three I am doing are posted below. Any feedback will of course be much appreciated .
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

Post by jaihare »

daivid wrote:Exercise κ
1) The grandfather, lying on the ground, wished to sleep.
2) But Philip running towards (him) woke him.
3) And he (said) “Why did you wake me,” and Philip said “A wolf is throwing itself (ie attacking) against the sheep.”
4) And the grandfather said “Call upon Argos and ward off the wolf from the sheep”.
5) Philip therefore having called Argos rushed up the hill.
6) While therefore Argos fiercely barking pursued the wolf, Philip seizing stones pelted it.
7 ) And, shortly, Argos had the wolf by his teeth and Philip with a sword killed it.
8 ) The grandfather arriving at the top of the hill said “Well done! you lot have warded off the wolf from the sheep.
9 ) And now you stay here and I will return home, for I want to announce to (your) mother what happened.
10 ) Philip decided (it seemed to Philip fitting) to drive the sheep into the sheep pen.
#4: Is there a difference between “calling X” and “calling upon X”? I would assume that καλέω + ἐπί + dative is “call upon X” and καλέω + accusative means “call X.” The NT uses ἐπικαλέομαι + accusative for “call upon X.”

#6: The verb αἴρω (ἄρας) doesn’t mean “seize,” but “pick up” or “lift.”

Nice job.
daivid wrote:Exercise μ
1) The slaves having picked up the stones threw them out of the field.
2) The master drove the oxen into the field having called the slaves.
3) The master, while sending away the slaves, remained in the field.
4) The slaves, leaving the plow behind, quickly returned home.
5) The maiden having seen her father approached and asked why he wasn't returning home.
6)And he replied that it was necessary to plow the field.
7 ) The youths did not flee but bravely fought.
8 ) The messenger announced that many in the battle had died.
9 ) The sailors having got ready sailed out of the harbor.
10) The captain fearing the storm decided to return to the harbor.
#2: You mixed up the participle (εἰσελάσας) and the finite verb (ἐκάλεσεν).

#3: The participle here is circumstantial. It isn’t just telling us that he did something while doing something else. Rather, it tells us that something happened with the master (he stayed) in opposition to what happened to the slaves (they were sent away). This is why I translated it as “whereas,” but “although” would also be appropriate. “Although” would be obvious if we saw καίπερ with the participle.

#9: The participle παρασκευάσαντες actually has an object (τὴν ναῦν), which you left out of your translation. They readied the ship. They didn’t “get ready” (which would be passive – the difference in Hebrew between להכין “to prepare” and להתכונן “to prepare yourself”).
daivid wrote:Exercise ν
1) ἐπεὶ Κωλαῖος ἐπάνελθε εἰπὲ τοῖς Ἕλλησι τά γενόμενα.
2) πάντα ἐθαύμασεν καὶ πολλοὶ ακουσαντες Ἀγαθωνιον ὄλβιον εἶναι ἐβούλοντο πλεῦσαι εἴς Τάρτησσον.
3) αὐτοῖς ἔδοξε ὁρμάν εὐθὺς παρασκευάσαντες τέταρτον τέταρτα πλοῖα ἐξέπλευσαν.
4) παθόντες πολλὰ δεινὰ τέλος ἀφίκοντο εἰς Τάρτησσον.
5) ὁ βασιλεὺς ἐδείξατο αὐτοὺς καὶ παρέσχε αὐτοῖς ἀργύριον καὶ καττίτερον.
6) ἔπειτα οἱ Ἕλληνες διὰ πολλοῦ ἐμπορίαν ἐποιοῦντο πρὸς τοὺς τοῦ Τάρτησσου πολίτας.
#1: Notice that ἐλθέ is the imperative (or aorist indicative in the Epic dialect). It should be augmented as ἦλθε, and with the prefix it’s ἐπανῆλθε (accent cannot precede the augment). I went with ἤγγειλε rather than εἶπε (notice the accent). Also, notice the accent of τά in τὰ γενόμενα. Other than that, this is all good.

#2: Do you see the difference between πάντες ἐθαύμασαν and πάντα ἐθαύμασε? The text says “all were amazed,” which means that “all” should be masculine plural (πάντες) and that the verb should agree with it (ἐθαύμασαν is third-person plural). The verb ἀκούω should be followed by ὅτι to subordinate the clause. Ἀγαθώνιος should be in the nominative with a finite verb (the text says to use the present tense). Thus, ὅτι ὁ Ἀργαθώνιος μάλα ὄλβιός (or ὀλβιώτατός) ἐστιν (“that Argathonius was very wealthy”).

#3: Should ὁρμάω not be in the middle voice here (ὁρμᾶσθαι)? When it’s in the active, notice that the accentuation of the active infinitive is -ᾶν, as in τιμᾶν “to honor” and ὁρμᾶν “to set out” (the iota disappears). For some reason you repeated “fourth” twice in the last phrase. It should be accusative to agree with ναῦς – as in τέσσαρας (or, it could be τέσσαρα πλοῖα).

#4: When you have “many” and “terrible” as substantive adjectives, you need to separate them with καί. Thus, πολλὰ καὶ δεινά means “many, terrible things.”

#5: “Received” should have only an epsilon within the word stem – ἐδέξατο rather than ἐδείξατο. You also missed the adverb εὐμενῶς in the first phrase. You also missed the word “much” in the last phrase (“much silver and tin”).

#6: The first phrase should use the accusative of time that answers “how long?” The phrase “for a long time” is πολύν τινα χρόνον.

I know I’ve commented a lot on your English-to-Greek work. Sorry for putting so much out there. If you want, you can look through my Greek-to-English above and see how it goes with your own work and my comments above. Also, feel free to let me know what you agree and disagree with.

Regards,
Jason

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

Post by jaihare »

brunapogliano wrote:Exercise 12ι
1. ἆραι
2. ἤγειρε
3. μείνασα
4. απεκρίνατο
5. φηνάμενος
6. μεῖνον
7. ἀποκτεῖναι
8. ἄρας
9. μεῖναι
10. ἤραμεν
11. ἠγείρας
12. ἀπεκρίνω
13. ἐφήνατο
14. ἀποκρίνασθαι
15. ἀπέκτειναν – αποκτείνασι
#5: My text reads “ἀποκρινόμενος” here. What does yours say?

#12: My text reads “ἀποκρίνου” here. What does yours say? It should be imperative: ἀπόκριναι.

#13: My text reads “ἀποκρίνεται” here. What does yours say?

I assume that in your texts there is a difference in the exercises.
brunapogliano wrote:Exercise 12κ
The book says "Identify liquid, nasal and irregular stems" so I wrote notes below each sentence

1. Grandfather, lying on the ground, wanted to sleep
ἠθέλησε: irregular aor. with liquid verb stem + η + σε
but: what’s the difference between ἤθελε (he kept wishing to manage some sleep?) and this
aorist (he had decided before lying/while he was lying he made up his mind?) or am I just taking
it too seriously?

2. But Philip approached and woke him up.
προσδραμών: aorist part. of προστρέχω – preceding action
ἤγειρεν: liquid stem, loss of sigma and comp. lengthening - completed action, perfective aspect

3. And the father asked: “Why did you wake me up, son?” Philip answered: “A wolf is attacking the
sheep”.
ἤγειρας: see ἤγειρεν in stc. N. 2
ἔφη: from φημί, perfective aspect

4. And the grandfather: “Call to Argos, he said, and ward off the wolf from the sheep.”
κάλεσον: aorist imperat. 2nd singular – irreg. short epsilon – perfective aspect
ἄμυνον: aor. imperat. 2nd sing. – nasal stem - perfective

5. So Philip, having called to Argos, hurried up onto the mountain.
καλέσας: aor. partic. for preceding action

6. While Argos ran after the wolf barking wildly, picking up some stones Philip threw them at the
wolf.
ἄρας: liquid stem – aor. partic. – simple, preceding action

7. Shortly after, Argos caught hold of the wolf with his teeth and Philip killed him with his knife.
ἀπέκτεινεν: nasal stem - perfective

8. Having arrived at the top of the mountain, the grandfather said: “Very well, you warded the
wolf bravely off the sheep .“
ἠμύνατε: nasal stem - perfective

9. “Now, stay here while I’ll go back home, for I wish to tell your mother what happened.”
μεῖνον: nasal stem – aor. imperat. 2nd sing – simple action
ἀγγεῖλαι: liquid stem – aor. infin. – simple action

10. So Philip thought good to drive the sheep into the sheepfold.
ἔδοξε: irreg. aorist – loss of stem ε, thus no contraction – perfective
εἰσελάσαι: irreg. aorist, much could be said about the variants of this verb, short alpha in the
stem, so paroxytone – simple action
#1: The imperfect of ἐθέλω is ἤθελον. The aorist is ἠθέλησα. To my dissatisfaction, I haven’t been able to find a difference in meaning between the two. I didn’t label this as a liquid stem, since the last part of the aorist stem is really the contract vowel. The lambda has no influence on the formation of the tense. It is irregular because it functions like a contract verb in the aorist (and future) but not in the present.

#3: We don’t technically have “answered” (ἀπεκρίνατο) in this sentence. ὁ δ᾿ ἔφη is “but he said.” Were you looking to get away from literalness in this?

#4: Although ἔφη is postpositive (appears after the first bit of a quote), it should be translated as regular in English: “And grandfather said, ‘Call Argos...’.”

#5: ἀνὰ τὸ ὄρος means “up the mountain” or “up the hill.” You have added “onto” in your translation. I don’t think the “onto” is justified.
brunapogliano wrote:Exercise 12λ
1. προσεχώρησα
2. ἐξέπεμψα
3. ἀπέφυγον
4. ἀπεκρινάμην
5. εἰσέπεμψα
6. ἀπέκτεινα
7. εἰσεκόμισα
8. συνῆλθον
9. συνέλαβον
I agree with this all.

I’ll comment on the rest when you get it post. :)

Jason

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

Post by daivid »

jaihare wrote: I know I’ve commented a lot on your English-to-Greek work. Sorry for putting so much out there. If you want, you can look through my Greek-to-English above and see how it goes with your own work and my comments above. Also, feel free to let me know what you agree and disagree with.
The quantity of comments is no reason for apologies! I am very grateful for such a complete follow up.
There are things that I am kicking myself for. There are others that I was not aware of but now you point them out to me are clear. I have highlighted them in my Athernaze document to refer back to. A few I have questions about:
jaihare wrote:
daivid wrote:Exercise μ
2) πάντες ἐθαύμασαν καὶ πολλοὶ ακουσαντες Ἀγαθωνιον ὄλβιον εἶναι ἐβούλοντο πλεῦσαι εἴς Τάρτησσον.
The verb ἀκούω should be followed by ὅτι to subordinate the clause. Ἀγαθώνιος should be in the nominative with a finite verb (the text says to use the present tense). Thus, ὅτι ὁ Ἀργαθώνιος μάλα ὄλβιός (or ὀλβιώτατός) ἐστιν (“that Argathonius was very wealthy”).
I understand the point about πάντες (and have corrected it here), however, if you use an infinitive construction is ὅτι redundant? I do see that the question did want a ὅτι construction but is it actually incorrect Greek?

jaihare wrote: #4: When you have “many” and “terrible” as substantive adjectives, you need to separate them with καί. Thus, πολλὰ καὶ δεινά means “many, terrible things.”
Does this other words when combined with πολλὰ or is it specif to δεινά?

There were more questions but several became clear as I was writing this reply.

Many thanks

Daivid
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

Post by jaihare »

daivid wrote:
jaihare wrote:
daivid wrote:Exercise μ
2) πάντες ἐθαύμασαν καὶ πολλοὶ ακουσαντες Ἀγαθωνιον ὄλβιον εἶναι ἐβούλοντο πλεῦσαι εἴς Τάρτησσον.
The verb ἀκούω should be followed by ὅτι to subordinate the clause. Ἀγαθώνιος should be in the nominative with a finite verb (the text says to use the present tense). Thus, ὅτι ὁ Ἀργαθώνιος μάλα ὄλβιός (or ὀλβιώτατός) ἐστιν (“that Argathonius was very wealthy”).
I understand the point about πάντες (and have corrected it here), however, if you use an infinitive construction is ὅτι redundant? I do see that the question did want a ὅτι construction but is it actually incorrect Greek?

It's surely fine to use infinitives with accusatives as their subjects. Do you know of examples in which ἀκούω is used this way?
daivid wrote:
jaihare wrote: #4: When you have “many” and “terrible” as substantive adjectives, you need to separate them with καί. Thus, πολλὰ καὶ δεινά means “many, terrible things.”
Does this other words when combined with πολλὰ or is it specif to δεινά?
As far as I understand, whenever we would use a comma to separate two adjectives modifying a single noun ("a friendly, wise man"), Greek would use καί to separate the adjectives ("ἄνθρωπός τις φίλιος καὶ σοφός"). At least, this is how I learned it.

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

Post by daivid »

jaihare wrote:
daivid wrote: I understand the point about πάντες (and have corrected it here), however, if you use an infinitive construction is ὅτι redundant? I do see that the question did want a ὅτι construction but is it actually incorrect Greek?

It's surely fine to use infinitives with accusatives as their subjects. Do you know of examples in which ἀκούω is used this way?


I see. It's not that the infinitive construction is incorrect but that it isn't normally use with ἀκούω (if ever).
I checked Taylor and he suggest that the participle construction thus.
2) πάντες ἐθαύμασαν καὶ πολλοὶ ἀκούσαντες Ἀγαθωνιον μάλα ὄλβιον ὄντα ἐβούλοντο πλεῦσαι εἴς Τάρτησσον.
As he states that the infinitive construction is normally used for thinking it does look as if you were right to warn me off using if for ἀκούω.
daivid wrote:
jaihare wrote: #4: When you have “many” and “terrible” as substantive adjectives, you need to separate them with καί. Thus, πολλὰ καὶ δεινά means “many, terrible things.”
Does this other words when combined with πολλὰ or is it specif to δεινά?
As far as I understand, whenever we would use a comma to separate two adjectives modifying a single noun ("a friendly, wise man"), Greek would use καί to separate the adjectives ("ἄνθρωπός τις φίλιος καὶ σοφός"). At least, this is how I learned it.[/quote]
That makes sense - I shall remember in future.
Thanks for both pieces of advice.
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

Post by jaihare »

Do you guys and gals want to move on to 13α already?

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

Post by daivid »

jaihare wrote:Do you guys and gals want to move on to 13α already?
Whether or not you open the thread immediately, I shall start on the exercise tomorrow so as to be ready when you do.
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

Post by brunapogliano »

I was engrossed in a freelance work and unable to keep up. Now it's over.
this is my
Exercise 12μ
1. Having picked up the stones, the slaves went out of the field.
2. Having driven the oxen into the field, the master called to the slaves.
3. The master sent away the slaves, while he himself stopped in the field.
4. After leaving the plough in the field, the slaves went back home quickly.
5. Having seen her father, the girl approached him hurriedly and asked him why he wasn’t returning home.
Greek has “doesn’t return” or “isn’t returning”, so she doesn’t refer to him as not having returned, but rather as not being on his way home. But, as far as I know, consecution temporum does not allow
such wild tense switch.
6. But he answered that it was necessary to plough the field / the field needed ploughing.
Again, Greek has “it is necessary”, I chose another tense for consecution temp.
7. The young men didn’t flee but fought bravely.
8. The messenger announced that many had died in the battle.
9. Having prepared their ship, the sailors sailed out of the harbour.
10. Being afraid of the storm, the captain thought good to return to the harbour.

Needless to say, I'm now working on 12ν. I'll post it as soon as ready.
Meanwhile, I've been catching up on your comments and feedback (haven't finished yet).
Jaihare, I remembered full stops!
No problem with Ch 13, open it up if σοι δοκεῖ.
So long
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

Post by brunapogliano »

jaihare wrote: #5: My text reads “ἀποκρινόμενος” here. What does yours say?
mine says φαινόμενος
b]#12:[/b] My text reads “ἀποκρίνου” here. What does yours say? It should be imperative: ἀπόκριναι.
you're right
#1:[/b] The imperfect of ἐθέλω is ἤθελον. The aorist is ἠθέλησα. To my dissatisfaction, I haven’t been able to find a difference in meaning between the two. I didn’t label this as a liquid stem, since the last part of the aorist stem is really the contract vowel. The lambda has no influence on the formation of the tense. It is irregular because it functions like a contract verb in the aorist (and future) but not in the present.
I mentioned the third singular.
To my knowledge, this IS a liquid stem (doesn't the stem end in a liquid?), the difference is that η is added to the verb stem in future and aorist, some grammars call this an extension. But the verb stem is in liquid.
[
b]#3:[/b] We don’t technically have “answered” (ἀπεκρίνατο) in this sentence. ὁ δ᾿ ἔφη is “but he said.” Were you looking to get away from literalness in this?
I was
#4 and 5, I made a note in my file

As for me, never apologize if you comment a lot.
It's extremely useful and I greatly appreciate the time you take doing it.
I gratefully thank you.
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β: 12 m

Post by CanadianGirl »

Athenaze Lesson 12 μ.
At long last. I will post 12 n Monday and try to keep up, very busy time for me
and I have minor oral surgery scheduled. Hope everybody is well.

1. 1. Having taken up the stones, the slaves threw (them) out of (from) the field.
2. 2. The master having driven the oxen into the field called the slaves.
3. 3. The master after sending the slaves away, himself stayed in the field.
4. 4. The slaves leaving the plow behind in the field, went away quickly.
5. 5. The young lady seeing the (her) father, quickly went forward and asked for what reason he would not (did not) return home.
6. 6. And he replied that it was necessary to plow the field.
7. 7. The young men did not flee away but fought bravely.
8. 8. The messenger announced that many (people) died in the battle.
9. 9. The sailors having made the ship ready sailed out (away) from the shore.
10. 10. The ship captain, fearing the storm, decided to return to the harbor.

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

Post by daivid »

brunapogliano wrote: 5. Having seen her father, the girl approached him hurriedly and asked him why he wasn’t returning home.
Greek has “doesn’t return” or “isn’t returning”, so she doesn’t refer to him as not having returned, but rather as not being on his way home. But, as far as I know, consecution temporum does not allow
such wild tense switch.
As I understand it, the normal thing in reported speech in Ancient Greek is to keep the tense as actually spoken.
(But consecution temporum is a new term for me so I may have misunderstood your query)
brunapogliano wrote: 6. But he answered that it was necessary to plough the field / the field needed ploughing.
Again, Greek has “it is necessary”, I chose another tense for consecution temp.
As English does go back in tense (unlike Ancient Greek) in reported speech that is indeed the correct rendering in English.
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

Post by brunapogliano »

daivid wrote: As I understand it, the normal thing in reported speech in Ancient Greek is to keep the tense as actually spoken.
(But consecution temporum is a new term for me so I may have misunderstood your query)
It's just a matter of "names", consecutio temporum is exactly what you described, i.e.: the set of rules governing the use of verb tenses and modes.
Being Italian I'm used to call it like that.
Greek is easier from this point of view, and yet I always find it weird. Of course, Greek, like Russian (and English though to a far lesser extent), is mainly concerned with verb aspect, while verb aspect is of little if no consequence in Italian.
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

Post by brunapogliano »

This is my
Exercise 12ν
1. Ἐπεί ὁ Κωλαῖος οἴκαδε ἐπανῆλθε / Ὁ Κωλαῖος οἴκαδε ἐπανελθών, τοῖς Ἕλλησι ἔλεξε τί ἐγένετο / τὰ γινόμενα.
2. Πάντες ἐθαύμασαν καὶ πολλοὶ ἀκούσαντες τὸν Ἀργαθώνιον μάλα ὄλβιον εῖναι, εἰς τὸν Τάρτησσον ἀποπλεῦσαι ἐβούλοντο.
Having read all your coments, I'd like to say that, as Jason wrote, the book said to use the present tense.
I didn't because it sounded sort of weird to me, though I was wrong because it is correct. But acc. + inf. is correct, too. Look up LSJ and you'll find the same sentence.
3. Αὐτοῖς ἔδοξε εὐθὺς ἀποπλεῦσαι• καὶ τέσσαρας ναῦς παρασκευασάμενοι ἀπέπλευσαν.
I prefer Jaihare’s: τέσσαρας δὲ to my καὶ.
4. Πολλὰ καὶ δεινὰ παθόντες, τέλος δή εἰς τὸν Τάρτησσον εἰσῆλθον / ἀφίκοντο.
5. Ὁ βασιλεὺς αὐτοὺς εὐμενῶς ἐδέξατο καὶ αὐτοῖς πολὺν ἄργυρον τε καὶ καττίτερον παρέσχε.
It seems ἀργύριον is closer in meaning to money than to metal.
6. Ἔπειτα δή πολὺν χρόνον οἱ Ἕλληνες ἐμπορίαν ἐποιοῦντο πρὸς τοὺς τοῦ Ταρτήσσου πολίτας.
Is there any difference between πολὺν χρόνον and πολύν τινα χρόνον?

Thanks in advance for any feedback.
Ready for Lesson 13. At last!
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

Post by mwh »

"Is there any difference between πολὺν χρόνον and πολύν τινα χρόνον?"

Not much at all. Usually without τινα. With it, more like “kind of a long time,” “quite a long time.” Cf. “un po’ lungo.”

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β 12 v

Post by CanadianGirl »

So here is my version of 12 v-sorry about the lack of accents, I'm using a library computer to post this & for some reason they didn't transfer over, and I'm in a frenetic rush, as usual. oh well. Hope everybody is well. Regards.

Αθεναζε 12 ν

1. Και επει ο Κολαιοσ επανηθεν οικαδε, ειπεν τοισ Ελλησιν τι εγενετο.
2. Πασ (παντεσ) εθαυμασεν, και πολλοι ακυοσσαντεσ ο Αργαθονιυσ ολβιοσ εστι, εβουλοντο αδ Ταρτεσσοσ πλειν.
3. Ευθυσ εδοξεν οπμησαι, και απεπλευσαν παρασκεαζαμενοι τεσσαπασ ναυσ.
4. Παθοντεσ πολλα δεινα, αφικοντο εισ Ταρτεσσυσ.
5. Ο βασιλεθσ δεχοται αυτουσ ευμενωσ και αυτοισ παρεσκε αργυριον και κασιτερον πολυν.
6. Και ουν οι Ελλενεοι εποιουντο εμπορια προσ τουσ πολιτασ Ταρτεσσου πολυν χρονον.

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β 12 v

Post by daivid »

Just a few I spotted
CanadianGirl wrote: Αθεναζε 12 ν
2. Πασ (παντεσ) εθαυμασεν, και πολλοι ακυοσσαντεσ ο Αργαθονιυσ ολβιοσ εστι, εβουλοντο αδ Ταρτεσσοσ πλειν.
αδ->εἴς
CanadianGirl wrote: 3. Ευθυσ εδοξεν οπμησαι, και απεπλευσαν παρασκεαζαμενοι τεσσαπασ ναυσ.
οπμησαι needs to be middle (I made the same mistake) hence -> ὁρμήσασθαι.
εδοξεν needs a dative as "it seemed to them (fitting)", ἔδοξεν αὐτοῖς.
CanadianGirl wrote: 4. Παθοντεσ πολλα δεινα, αφικοντο εισ Ταρτεσσυσ.
In the book it has finally so something like τέλος?
CanadianGirl wrote: 5. Ο βασιλεθσ δεχοται αυτουσ ευμενωσ και αυτοισ παρεσκε αργυριον και κασιτερον πολυν.
Shouldn't δεχοται be past, say ἐδέξατο? But I see you have εὐμενῶς which I forgot.
CanadianGirl wrote: 6. Και ουν οι Ελλενεοι εποιουντο εμπορια προσ τουσ πολιτασ Ταρτεσσου πολυν χρονον.
Don't forget the ν on ἐμπορίαν
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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

Post by CanadianGirl »

Daivid-Thank you for the feed-back, English to Greek is so hard for me, it's hard not to make mistakes. I know it's great practice though. Strangely enough , I speak a little modern Greek-enough to ask directions etc. and it seems pretty easy. Regards.

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Athenaze Study group Lesson 12 B -Are we working on Lesson 1

Post by CanadianGirl »

Hey gang-It is now July 6, I assume we are all underway on Lesson 13? I am slowly working through the exercises, etc. Do we have a schedule for posting? Hove everybody is well.

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Athenaze Study group Lesson 12 B -Are we working on Lesson 1

Post by CanadianGirl »

Hey gang-It is now July 6, I assume we are all underway on Lesson 13? I am slowly working through the exercises, etc. Do we have a schedule for posting? Hove everybody is well.

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

Post by jaihare »

I'll try to open up a thread on Sunday, OK?

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

Post by CanadianGirl »

Jaihare-Yes thank you. BTW, my original message should have read "HOPE" everybody is well. "HOVE" is the dative of Hive, or something.

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Re: Athenaze Study Group - Lesson 12β

Post by jaihare »

The thread for 13α is now open.

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