What kind of texts are hardest?

[daivid]

To me:
Action in the real world is easiest.
Description is a little harder.
Abstract idea are far harder than both.

That Anabasis was traditionally the first text to be given to learners makes me think that I am not alone in this but some text books almost exclusively focus on the abstract so maybe people differ on this.

It goes with out saying, I assume, that long complicated sentences, obscure words and unusual declensions and tenses will make any text harder irrespective of which of the above 3 an extract fall into.

[Paul Derouda]

I agree with you, but in addition I'd say that a particularly difficult category are concrete descriptions of things that are removed from my own life experience. Some times these involve technical vocabulary but not always. I'm thinking about things like descriptions of buildings, Attic law and botany. One thing I found particularly difficult in my first reading of Homer were descriptions of seafaring, which involved technical vocabulary of ancients ships and natural phenomena. Working through the Greek text, how many times I first had to look up the Greek word in English and then the English word in my own language, only to notice that I still didn't know what it was!

[Bart]

I agree with you, but in addition I'd say that a particularly difficult category are concrete descriptions of things that are removed from my own life experience. Some times these involve technical vocabulary but not always. I'm thinking about things like descriptions of buildings, Attic law and botany.

Or doors.

Odyssey 1, 441-442:
βῆ ῥʼ ἴμεν ἐκ θαλάμοιο, θύρην δʼ ἐπέρυσσε κορώνῃ
ἀργυρέῃ, ἐπὶ δὲ κληῖδʼ ἐτάνυσσεν ἱμάντι.

The syntax is simple, the vocabulary isn't particulary difficult, and I get the gist of what is happening (she closes the door), but that's as far as it goes. Luckily enough Ameis spends almost half a page explaining how to the lock of this particular door functions.

[Paul Derouda]

Yes, that door is exactly the sort of thing I meant! I remember spending quite a bit of time with those lines. But the funny thing is that a year or two later on a cycling trip in the Åland archipelago, when I was walking in a church graveyard, I saw something that made me go "Heureka!" - there was a gate at the entrance which I believe worked exactly (or almost) as described here. I should have taken a photo. Maybe I will yet, because we're going there again next month... The problem is that I don't remember which church it was, because there are several very beautiful medieval churches there. I guess I'll have to visit them all.

[jeidsath]

It sounds like a gravity latch to me, with a strap that lets you pull up the bar. I had to look up almost every word on Perseus though.

[Paul Derouda]

"Gravity latch". Sounds good! But the ones I see with a quick Google search don't have a strap, unlike the unique one I saw in that graveyard. Not that I've generally payed much attention to locks, latches, and that sort of thing.

[Paul Derouda]

To return to the original topic: I think Plato is a case in point. Of the few texts I've read, I suppose the Apology might be a pretty good introductory text to Attic Greek. Phaedrus, on the other hand, is quite difficult. I don't think there's much difference in the language except that it's an abstract text, and it's difficult to make an educated guess as to what Plato is trying to say at each time.

[Bart]

For those interested in Homeric doors & bolts, here is the link to the Ameis commentary: https://archive.org/stream/homersodysse ... 8/mode/2up
Under 442: κληίς....

And, Paul, a picture would be great.

Sorry, back on topic.

[daivid]

On doors, I just happen to be reading Aeneas Tacticus 18.9 where he describes a cunning method to measure a bolt so a group of conspirators can create the hook needed to open it. The bolt and key clearly have the same function as a lock and key but work on a very different principle. Clearly also the writer is leaving stuff out rather than insult his reader's intelligence by saying things "everyone knows" but that doesn't bother me as I know what is being left out. When I lose my way in an abstract text I don't even know that.
(I do hope, Paul, you will post any pictures you get as I suspect that the Aeneas lock and Homer's will turn out to have a lot in common. I will check out Ameis too)

Plato's dialogs often have very accessible sections as he starts them with mini stories but they are accessible because they action episodes even thought the text as a whole is abstract philosophy.

[daivid]

For those interested in Homeric doors & bolts, here is the link to the Ameis commentary: https://archive.org/stream/homersodysse ... 8/mode/2up
Under 442: κληίς....

Umm, does there exist an English translation? (But thanks for the link).

Sorry, back on topic.

And having got back on topic which do you find hardest - action, description or abstract ideas?

[rummy51]

Certainly abstract ideas are going to be the hardest, as I would say it is for me in English. But just like Homer bit with the door description, the most difficult part that I remember reading in Plato's Ion was the description of the magnets.

[Bart]

And having got back on topic which do you find hardest - action, description or abstract ideas?

Sorry, I didn't answer your question because I'm not sure I can make a valuable contribution to this discussion. First of all I'haven't read that widely in Greek, secondly I have the distinct impression that difficulty in Greek depends more on the author than on the topic. For what it is worth, what keeps me from fluency in reading Homer (and I haven't read much else last year) is vocabulary, whether abstract or concrete. And those bloody doors of course.

One more thing concerning 'abstract texts': of course, a difficult argumentation is difficult in any language, but I don't think abstractness itself, for me at least, is a problem. On the contrary, academic texts, scientific papers, essays, newspaper articles about political subjects, history books etcetera are often much easier in a foreign language than the idiomatic expressions of direct speech or written dialogue.

[/quote] Umm, does there exist an English translation? (But thanks for the link).[/quote]

I don't think so, no. Which is a pity, for it really is the best commentary out there for the beginning and intermediate reader of Homer, better even than Steadman.

[C. S. Bartholomew]

Sorry, I didn't answer your question because I'm not sure I can make a valuable contribution to this discussion. First of all I'haven't read that widely in Greek, secondly I have the distinct impression that difficulty in Greek depends more on the author than on the topic.

I agree with all of this. Authors make the difference.

Dialogue within tragedy is easier than long speeches.

Prose narrative is constrained by certain conventions of story telling. An episode will fit a cultural scenario which will have certain predictable participant roles and patterns of action. Participants in the story are introduced and they engage in dialogue with and perform actions which impact other participants. Their actions follow cultural scripts for the given scenario.

Speeches are often more difficult than narrative.
Analytical discourse can be very difficult to follow.

[Paul Derouda]

Here is the Homeric door latch I promised to photograph... This might well be a very common type of door, but for me it was an eye-opener, as I'm by no means acquainted with the locksmith's trade. (Pictures taken in the churchyard of the late medieval Föglö church in the Åland archipelago in southwest Finland.)

[C. S. Bartholomew]

Here is the Homeric door latch ... This might well be a very common type of door

looks like a hybrid, parts from more than one source. The latch arm and retaining strap look "home made" but other than that the basic design is common enough. The implementation is somewhat more elaborate that I have seen before, particularly the extra tab mounted with a rivet that connects the release cable to the arm. Also, the metal hook which the strap slips behind in the locked position looks like a found on hand part that had some other purpose but was suitable.

[Bart]

Thanks, Paul!
But really, Homeric locks in Finland; what more proof do we need the Odyssey took place in the Baltic?

[daivid]

Here is the Homeric door latch I promised to photograph... This might well be a very common type of door, but for me it was an eye-opener, as I'm by no means acquainted with the locksmith's trade.

I assume that the cable is removable and that it will slip into the hole in the tab provided that the cable is the right length so acting as a key.

I am trying to relate it to the lock mentioned in On the Murder of Eratosthenes which the wife, according to Euphiletos, uses to lock Euphiletos into their bedroom. The lockable latch that you show can only be locked from one side. Given that in a typical Greek house most doors opened out either directly onto the courtyard or onto an open 1st floor walkway that was easily accessible from the courtyard I can see the need for doors that can be locked from the outside so that neighbors can't slip in and nick your stuff. Why though would you install locks that can only serve to imprison someone in a room?

[mwh]

To keep your wife from straying?

[calvinist]

To keep your wife from straying?

I know that was the reason for doing it in my house. It works really well...

[Tertius Robertus]

Vegetables... Trees, flowers, fragrances, Greek lettuces, mushrooms, and other annoying immovable living beings... It is quite difficult for me to understand these weird discussing things. I remember it was a living hell to read the Georgics. Does anyone have the same problem?

Anyway, I wonder how people learn botanical vocabulary.


p.s. I did not notice the thread was dead, but now that I have typed the post I will let it be.

[daivid]

Vegetables... Trees, flowers, fragrances, Greek lettuces, mushrooms, and other annoying immovable living beings... It is quite difficult for me to understand these weird discussing things. I remember it was a living hell to read the Georgics. Does anyone have the same problem?

Anyway, I wonder how people learn botanical vocabulary.


p.s. I did not notice the thread was dead, but now that I have typed the post I will let it be.

Almost all plants names in English that I know, I learnt by having them pointed out to me when a child. It's a lot harder now I live in the city where there are few trees to point out to myself and of then there are plants that don't grow in Britain. After encountering the words κέγχρος (proso millet) and μελίνη (Foxtail millet) I thought a good substitute would be buy the grains and eat them. None of the shops that I asked in could even tell me what kind of millet they were selling and indeed they did not even know there were different kinds of millet.
(True, I wouldn't have known if I had not been learning Ancient Greek but if you are selling something you have a bit more of responsibility to know what it is).

[Tertius Robertus]

Thanks for the reply.

Almost all plants names in English that I know, I learnt by having them pointed out to me when a child.

I think I will have to find someone learned to point me out the trees and theirs names. But... see below...

It's a lot harder now I live in the city where there are few trees to point out to myself and of then there are plants that don't grow in Britain.

This is quite my problem... Where I live -- the southern hemisphere of the globe -- I seldom see a tree that could also be found in Europe. From my window, for instance, one can see a menorah shaped tree -- whose name no one can tell what it is.

I thought a good substitute would be buy the grains and eat them. None of the shops that I asked in could even tell me what kind of millet they were selling and indeed they did not even know there were different kinds of millet.
(True, I wouldn't have known if I had not been learning Ancient Greek but if you are selling something you have a bit more of responsibility to know what it is).

I had similar experience in a botanical garden (!!!), a quite natural place, I thought, to solve my problem. The best the guides could do for me was to tell me the scientific names of the vegetables. I suppose I will have to prepare a vocabulary list with linnaean names and pay them another visit. :0

[ariphron]

After encountering the words κέγχρος (proso millet) and μελίνη (Foxtail millet)

I remember puzzling over those terms the first time I encountered them in Anabasis I:2:22. The ancient Chinese had a strikingly similar proverbial list of five grains, including 稷 ji (presumably foxtail millet) and 黍 shu (some other kind of millet, likely proso). Unfortunately the word ji has gone completely out of use and shu is relatively rare, and most people use only one word for millet, 小米 xiaomi "small particles of grain." Anyways, back to the practical identification problem. When I first first visited China I had millet porridge for the first time, and I found it wonderful — it is hard to describe how good the stuff makes my stomach feel. Nobody I asked knew what kind of millet it was. Coming back to America, I found it really hard to find a reliable supply of good millet. The stuff I found in bulk, both in standard and Asian groceries, made awful porridge, while whenever I found a prepackaged Chinese millet that I liked in the Asian groceries it was gone from the shelves the next time I went back. Needless to say, none of the packages had useful botanical information on them. In Chinese, if they didn't say xiaomi, it was 黃米 huangmi or 大黃米 "yellow particles of grain"/"large yellow particles of grain"; in English, simply "millet" or "non-glutinous millet." To make things more confusing, 大米 dami is the most common term for rice, while quinoa is labeled 小小米 xiaoxiaomi. I had particularly bad experiences with packages labeled organic millet. Now, according to Wikipedia, foxtail millet is the dominant millet in East Asia, while proso millet is common is Western organic farming. Thus, if you buy a package of millet that appears to be conventionally farmed in China, and it makes good tasting porridge, then it's likely to be μελίνη, while if you buy bulk or organic millet from the West, and the porridge doesn't taste right, then it's likely κέγχρος.

[daivid]

Now, according to Wikipedia, foxtail millet is the dominant millet in East Asia, while proso millet is common is Western organic farming. Thus, if you buy a package of millet that appears to be conventionally farmed in China, and it makes good tasting porridge, then it's likely to be μελίνη, while if you buy bulk or organic millet from the West, and the porridge doesn't taste right, then it's likely κέγχρος.

Thanks for that. I will try a bit harder to get someone to tell me what they are selling. However, as my main reason for wanting to sample millet is to fix the words in my mind your advice is likely to be very helpful. If I find millet that makes good porridge I shall tell myself that it is μελίνη and disregard the possibility that it is one of the the other millets that were unknown to the Greeks.

So far the only people who I have yet to find who know what they are selling are Golden Prairie but that is in the US so it is no use to me. As they sell κέγχρος it is also unlikely to be of much use to you as that's not the type you like.