Greek and Latin learning via Skype. Classics at home.

Here you can discuss all things Ancient Greek. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get help with a difficult passage of Greek, and more.
Post Reply
marcofurio
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:33 pm

Greek and Latin learning via Skype. Classics at home.

Post by marcofurio »

Χαίρετε ὦ φίλοι,

Τὴν Ἑλληνικὴν γλώσσαν μαθητὴς γὰρ ὤν δία ὀὺκ ὀλίγων ἐτῶν, νεωστὶ ηὔρηκα θαυμαστὸν τόπον ἐν ᾧ ἔξεστί τε δυνατὸν καὶ γλυκύτατον τήν τῶν ἀρχαίων Ἑλλήνων φωνὴν ῥαδίως μαθεῖν. Εἰ ὑμῖν ἀρέσκει τὸ καθ´ ἡμέραν θάττον ἀναγώσκειν τὰ ἔργα τῶν δεινοτάτων συγγραφέων τῆς Ἑλλάδος, ἐν τούτῳ τῷ τόπῳ δυνήσεσθε ἥδεσθαι δὴ τᾦ μαθεῖν τε καί τᾦ διδασκάλῳ, σπουδαίῳ μὲν ἀγαθῷ δὲ τε καί χρηστοτάτῳ ὄντι.
http://www.classicsathome.com

Dear friends,

I have been studying Greek for several years and recently found an impresive website where it is possible and incredibly nice to learn the ancient Greeks' language easily. If an everyday faster reading of the greatest Greek writers sounds good to you, at this website you will be able to really enjoy the learning process and the actual teacher, who is both serious and enchanting and has an impressive knowledge behind.



NB: Etiam latina lingua ibi discenda est, etsi lectionibus latinis non usus sum nec dubito quin magistri latine et loqui et legere et scribere bene discant, nam generaliter methodus eorum optima mihi videtur.

NB: You may also learn latin at this site. I have not tried latin here but I am sure a good latin speaking, reading and writing will be taught there as in general their method in my opinion is brilliant.

User avatar
jeidsath
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 5332
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: Greek and Latin learning via Skype. Classics at home.

Post by jeidsath »

They seem to teach modern Greek first? That's an interesting approach. Schliemann swore by it, of course.
Regarding Greek emphasis will be laid on communication from the very beginning as it begins with the current epoch of the language. Once you are capable of expressing yourself the learning stage initiates.
Although it may sound just the reverse learning Ancient Greek without a good grounding of Modern Greek requires much more time and effort. Moreover, from the first Modern Greek class the student will also learn Ancient Greek with a methodology that focuses on the common lexical roots of the different stages of the language.
"In Greek we exclusively use the historical pronunciation namely, the one utilized by the Greeks today dating way back to two thousand years."
The Greek pronunciation that's used today in Athens. In Cyprus? Or locations in Turkey? And the pronunciation used goes back to the Greek of 2000 years ago in what particular parts of the world exactly?

I'm willing to bet that Paul could tell the difference between ὑμῖν and ἡμῖν.

Decent prices for 1-1 tutoring, I see.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

User avatar
Scribo
Global Moderator
Posts: 917
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:28 pm
Location: Between Ilias and Odysseia (ok sometimes Athens).

Re: Greek and Latin learning via Skype. Classics at home.

Post by Scribo »

Ypsilon still had its historical pronunciation in the old Attic (named geographically, not for its continuation from the ancient dialect of the same name) in the 19th century until the flood of Peloponessian speakers into the area. In more standardised dialects, like the one spoken at Konstantinoupolis, it held that value until at least the 10th century. Eta still has an e sound in certain Pontic dialectics rather than being merged with iota. Tsakonika still has vau/digamma...

It's a common trope amongst those who really don't know what they're talking about to act as if Greek went through large changes from PIE > Proto Greek and from Mycenaean to the dialects we have...and then somehow at some point in the Hellenistic age the language ossified into what we have now and went over 2000 years without change. Unique in all human history! Alas, common sense and hoards of evidence suggests otherwise.

Of course in actuality this is bullshit. The various changes took time and occurred at different rates and Greek of 2000 years ago was not mutually intelligible today - certainly not phonologically - and only graphically if both 2000 year old writer and modern reader have been schooled to some degree in Attic.

Competency aside, I'm not even sure we're allowed to advertise here.
(Occasionally) Working on the following tutorials:

(P)Aristotle, Theophrastus and Peripatetic Greek
Intro Greek Poetry
Latin Historical Prose

User avatar
calvinist
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 474
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:24 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Greek and Latin learning via Skype. Classics at home.

Post by calvinist »

jeidsath wrote:They seem to teach modern Greek first? That's an interesting approach. Schliemann swore by it, of course.
Regarding Greek emphasis will be laid on communication from the very beginning as it begins with the current epoch of the language. Once you are capable of expressing yourself the learning stage initiates.
Although it may sound just the reverse learning Ancient Greek without a good grounding of Modern Greek requires much more time and effort. Moreover, from the first Modern Greek class the student will also learn Ancient Greek with a methodology that focuses on the common lexical roots of the different stages of the language.
"In Greek we exclusively use the historical pronunciation namely, the one utilized by the Greeks today dating way back to two thousand years."
The Greek pronunciation that's used today in Athens. In Cyprus? Or locations in Turkey? And the pronunciation used goes back to the Greek of 2000 years ago in what particular parts of the world exactly?

I'm willing to bet that Paul could tell the difference between ὑμῖν and ἡμῖν.

Decent prices for 1-1 tutoring, I see.
Seems more confusing to learn both Modern Greek and Ancient Greek at the same time. And the mysticism (I don't know what else to call it) of those who claim Ancient Greek was pronounced like Standard Modern Greek is beyond absurd. When the Romans borrowed φιλοσοφια from Greek I guess the reason they wrote it philosophia and not filosofia was that they thought it'd be cool to create a separate digraph for a sound they already had a letter for. They were just stinkers like that.

marcofurio
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:33 pm

Re: Greek and Latin learning via Skype. Classics at home.

Post by marcofurio »

I have been studying ancient Greek on my own for about 8 years, mainly with Athenaze together with Cambridge’s Reading Greek and lately Rouse’s Short Greek Course. Since the beginning I found extremely useful the http://www.textkit.com website together with http://www.culturaclasica.com , a Spanish association committed to ancient Greek and Latin teaching as modern languages. At the same time I started Orberg’s Familia Romana and the adapted classical authors as recommended in both Familia and the second volume Roma Aeterna. Apart from obvious differences between Latin and Greek and the great plus of speaking Spanish in Latin learning I am pretty sure that Orberg’s method is light-years ahead of any of the above mentioned Greek methods. Maybe Rouse’s was as good but the writings he left us are no way as easy going step by step as Orberg’s. The fact is that very soon I was capable of comfortably reading Latin texts of progressively increasing difficulty.

This leads me to the main point of my argument. Half way through these years I discovered at culturaclasica.com a very interesting essay regarding Latin and ancient Greek teaching at Spanish University http://www.culturaclasica.com/?q=node/1904. The author shared his disappointment with the fact that after such long hardworking time at University he was unable of reading Homer or Herodotus comfortably seated in an armchair by the fireside while smoking a good tobacco pipe. He then describes his experience with Spanish teaching with modern methods as practiced among other places at Instituto Cervantes and how he both efficiently taught Spanish and learned modern Greek in Athens. And what is even more interesting to the point he somewhere else shared his experience when opening Plato in a bookshop in Athens and finding he was able to follow it way better than he had before, despite some time without contact with classic Greek.

After reading this essay (in the line of Luigi Miraglia’s How Latin is (not) taught http://www.latinitatis.com/latinitas/te ... raglia.htm I decided to learn modern Greek with a very simple and efficient English-written method destined to Hellenic-Americans keen on Greek learning. http://www.greek123.com

The experience was absolutely wonderful as both modern Greek helped me with Attic and the other way around. Soon I was able to read at a reasonable speed ancient Greek texts with the infinite generosity of Prof Steadman’s books (1)
as well as other reader's editions such as Mather and Hewitt's Anabasis (in fact as I later discovered based on the Harper and Wallace’s 1893 lavishly illustrated and well-explained edition(2)), Lucian’s True Story (3) or even the excellent UBS Greek New Testament (4).


(1) http://www.amazon.es/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?_ ... dman+greek

(2) https://archive.org/details/xenophonsanabasi00xenoiala

(3) http://www.amazon.es/Lucians-True-Story ... tory+greek

(4) http://www.amazon.es/UBS-Greek-New-Test ... +testament
.

Regarding pronunciation I have read with interest Scribo’s comments which are way above my knowledge to discuss. I can only say that the one employed at http://www.classicsathome.com (where I was gladly surprised to find one of the site-developers was the above-mentioned Spanish philologist) seems to me the same as that used in Greek123 or the standard Greek TV pronunciation. I honestly think pronunciation is not such a big issue, the question is how to inject life to an ancient -or modern- text. My answer is through living that language just as I did with English (by living in an English-speaking country, as believe it or not, I never heard an even minute English chat from my Grammar-oriented Madrid-born English teacher way back in the 80's), Latin (thanks to wonderful Orberg), and now... Greek.

I would also like to clarify that before posting I re-read the rules “just in case”, and did not find any problem in talking about a new site where ancient languages are taught, having in mind the general drought in this area. According to Webster’s Encyclopaedic Dictionary advertising is “the act or practice of calling public attention to one’s product, service, need, etc., esp. by paid announcements in newspapers and magazines, over radio or television, on billboards, etc.” which is definitely not the case. I understand none of us want this great site changed into a pile of unorganised links to various Latin and Greek sites, but sharing new developments in an area with such a tiny public as compared with main-line contemporary interests is a great step forward for everybody. Even in last Monday’s posts you can find information regarding the new English translated Polis method together with a link to the “ipso auctori” of the method, which again I think is not advertising but helping our fellow students.

User avatar
jeidsath
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 5332
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: Greek and Latin learning via Skype. Classics at home.

Post by jeidsath »

I'm actually with you, @marcofurio. It's extremely easy to waste effort in studying Greek without acquiring useful reading skills. I don't mind the recommendation of good teachers.

I recently had some contact with a gentleman who has been studying Greek for decades with a group of likeminded peers. He is very well-read and had notebooks and notebooks of written translations to show me. However he was absolutely blown away by the idea of someone picking a passage at random, reading a few lines out loud, and telling him what it meant.

People go wrong when they focus on something other than learning Greek as a language. If the teachers at your link are good at teaching ancient Greek as a foreign language, more power to them. What they are saying about pronunciation is unfortunate, as Scribo demonstrates. Absent that, a modern Greek pronunciation really does have a few advantages for learning (and some disadvantages). They are not the first people to recommend learning modern Greek as a path to the ancient language. Blackie is a good read on that -- but so are his detractors.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

User avatar
Paul Derouda
Global Moderator
Posts: 2292
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: Greek and Latin learning via Skype. Classics at home.

Post by Paul Derouda »

@marcofurio
The point about advertising is that basically this forum is a place where people discuss Greek and Latin on their free time and for free. Also, as far as I know, the person who actually runs this site does it at his own expense, without any profit. For that reason, if it appears that someone is posting just to get some paying customers without any true engagement to forum, it's contrary to the Textkit spirit, or that's how I understand it. But as far as I can see, this was not your case; I think you just wanted to tell about a web site you had found particularly helpful, and wanted to tell us about it. I don't see any problem, at least not if you're not affiliated with the website in question. Everyone here is posting links to Amazon.com all the time, for example - but I hope no one here is making profit out of Amazon... ;)

About Greek reading skills: to some point I agree with you, but not about modern Greek, for reasons others have pointed out.

@Scribo: What you're telling about ypsilon in the old Attic is totally new to me. You mean 19th century AD!?

Markos
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 2966
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:07 pm
Location: Colorado
Contact:

Re: Greek and Latin learning via Skype. Classics at home.

Post by Markos »

marcofurio wrote:Χαίρετε ὦ φίλοι,

Τὴν Ἑλληνικὴν γλώσσαν μαθητὴς γὰρ ὤν δία ὀὺκ ὀλίγων ἐτῶν, νεωστὶ ηὔρηκα θαυμαστὸν τόπον ἐν ᾧ ἔξεστί τε δυνατὸν καὶ γλυκύτατον τήν τῶν ἀρχαίων Ἑλλήνων φωνὴν ῥαδίως μαθεῖν. Εἰ ὑμῖν ἀρέσκει τὸ καθ´ ἡμέραν θάττον ἀναγώσκειν τὰ ἔργα τῶν δεινοτάτων συγγραφέων τῆς Ἑλλάδος, ἐν τούτῳ τῷ τόπῳ δυνήσεσθε ἥδεσθαι δὴ τᾦ μαθεῖν τε καί τᾦ διδασκάλῳ, σπουδαίῳ μὲν ἀγαθῷ δὲ τε καί χρηστοτάτῳ ὄντι.
http://www.classicsathome.com
χαῖρε καὶ σύ, φίλε. εὐφραίνομαι δὴ παρά σου ἀκούων Ἑλληνιστί. καλῶς γὰρ γράφεις καὶ πάντας τοὺς λόγους σου κατέλαβον. ἐλπίζω δὲ ὅτι πάλιν ἡμῖν γράψεις.
marcofurio wrote:I decided to learn modern Greek...the experience was absolutely wonderful as both modern Greek helped me with Attic and the other way around. Soon I was able to read at a reasonable speed ancient Greek texts.
Your testimony is important. Most of the people who advocate learning to speak Modern Greek in order to help with learning to read Ancient Greek are either Native Greeks or people who had already learned Modern Greek for other reasons. I once asked for anyone to come to forward who learned Modern Greek solely as a method for improving their Ancient Greek, and you are the first person that I am aware of who has done so. χάριν οὖν δίδομεν!

User avatar
calvinist
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 474
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:24 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Greek and Latin learning via Skype. Classics at home.

Post by calvinist »

marcofurio wrote: Regarding pronunciation I have read with interest Scribo’s comments which are way above my knowledge to discuss. I can only say that the one employed at http://www.classicsathome.com (where I was gladly surprised to find one of the site-developers was the above-mentioned Spanish philologist) seems to me the same as that used in Greek123 or the standard Greek TV pronunciation. I honestly think pronunciation is not such a big issue, the question is how to inject life to an ancient -or modern- text.
Using the Modern Greek pronunciation is one thing, but asserting that Plato sounded like modern Greeks is another. The latter is what many of us find ridiculous, as it goes against all of the evidence, not to mention common sense. I don't think pronunciation is a huge matter either, I use the "Imperial Koine" pronunciation recommended by Randall Buth since my main interest is Koine, so I'm very close to the modern pronunciation.

I looked at the site and it looks really good. I think it's great that people are using modern technology to find new ways to teach and learn these very old languages. It gives hope that the classics will survive.

User avatar
Scribo
Global Moderator
Posts: 917
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:28 pm
Location: Between Ilias and Odysseia (ok sometimes Athens).

Re: Greek and Latin learning via Skype. Classics at home.

Post by Scribo »

Paul Derouda wrote:
@Scribo: What you're telling about ypsilon in the old Attic is totally new to me. You mean 19th century AD!?
Yes, I was routing around for a non-Greek source and I realised that in English it's called "Old Athenian", not "Old Attic". Anyway I've found this online: http://www.greek-language.gr/greekLang/ ... a_a_1_1en/

By the same P. Trudgill who wrote a good article for the journal of modern Greek studies in 2003 on modern Greek dialects and dialectology. Scroll down to Ypsilon.

There's also Horrocks (you know the book, 1997, "A history of the Greek language and its speakers") pp 274 which mentions this and grounds it historically.

See? As I've said before the development of ancient to modern Greek is quite a bit complicated than people credit. This is the kind of information that's being lost by this new fashionable linguistics "I don't need to know languages, linguistics isn't about knowing languages, do you ask doctors how many diseases they have?" school of thought. Nothing beats deep familiarity with a language. :lol:
(Occasionally) Working on the following tutorials:

(P)Aristotle, Theophrastus and Peripatetic Greek
Intro Greek Poetry
Latin Historical Prose

User avatar
Σαυλος
Textkit Fan
Posts: 240
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:47 pm

Re: Greek and Latin learning via Skype. Classics at home.

Post by Σαυλος »

marcofurio wrote:After reading this essay (in the line of Luigi Miraglia’s How Latin is (not) taught http://www.latinitatis.com/latinitas/te ... raglia.htm I decided to learn modern Greek with a very simple and efficient English-written method destined to Hellenic-Americans keen on Greek learning. http://www.greek123.com
Marco, I read some of that essay, via Google translate. It seems very interesting. I might have to learn Spanish just so that I can read it.

I'm mainly wondering just what course of study you followed for Modern Greek. I went to the Greek123 site, but it has so many options. Which did you follow?

χάριν εχω σοι οτι δυνασαι γραψαι Ελληνιστι. παρακαλουμαι υπο σου. Σαυλος
I will babble until I talk. ετι λαλαγω...

User avatar
calvinist
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 474
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:24 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Greek and Latin learning via Skype. Classics at home.

Post by calvinist »

Scribo wrote: See? As I've said before the development of ancient to modern Greek is quite a bit complicated than people credit. This is the kind of information that's being lost by this new fashionable linguistics "I don't need to know languages, linguistics isn't about knowing languages, do you ask doctors how many diseases they have?" school of thought. Nothing beats deep familiarity with a language. :lol:
Scribo, thanks for that info. That's very compelling evidence that during the Koine period υ = οι = IPA y. Since y can be thought of as u + i as a single sound, some speakers dropped the u element and others dropped the i element (rounding/fronting).

What do you mean by the "new fashionable linguistics"? Are you talking about monolingual linguists like Chomsky?

User avatar
Scribo
Global Moderator
Posts: 917
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:28 pm
Location: Between Ilias and Odysseia (ok sometimes Athens).

Re: Greek and Latin learning via Skype. Classics at home.

Post by Scribo »

calvinist wrote:
Scribo wrote: See? As I've said before the development of ancient to modern Greek is quite a bit complicated than people credit. This is the kind of information that's being lost by this new fashionable linguistics "I don't need to know languages, linguistics isn't about knowing languages, do you ask doctors how many diseases they have?" school of thought. Nothing beats deep familiarity with a language. :lol:
Scribo, thanks for that info. That's very compelling evidence that during the Koine period υ = οι = IPA y. Since y can be thought of as u + i as a single sound, some speakers dropped the u element and others dropped the i element (rounding/fronting).

What do you mean by the "new fashionable linguistics"? Are you talking about monolingual linguists like Chomsky?
Well I mean we know that about Hellenistic Greek from other sources too. It's just that there were hold outs - "islands" as the article writers call them - of that particular sound post the 10th century.

I don't necessarily mean Chomsky (besides isn't he a Yiddish speaker?) since regardless of what one thinks of his work, its clearly impactful. I don't even necessarily think one needs to know several languages to be a linguist. The moderns have it right here, especially because modern linguistics is very broad and has several areas philology will never touch like fieldwork and speech therapy and biological questions on the human capacity for language. I love all that stuff. Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut over the past few years there has been an increasing amount of these people dabbling - and it is dabbling - in historical/comparative work. Especially in the PIE languages. It's always facile. There's just too much damn good work on Greek, Latin, Sanskrit etc by people who live and breathe these languages to warrant this dilettantism.

I've sat through enough bad papers in my time tbh and heard enough silly claims by grad students and, increasingly, lecturers for one lifetime.
(Occasionally) Working on the following tutorials:

(P)Aristotle, Theophrastus and Peripatetic Greek
Intro Greek Poetry
Latin Historical Prose

User avatar
calvinist
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 474
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:24 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Greek and Latin learning via Skype. Classics at home.

Post by calvinist »

Scribo wrote: Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut over the past few years there has been an increasing amount of these people dabbling - and it is dabbling - in historical/comparative work. Especially in the PIE languages. It's always facile. There's just too much damn good work on Greek, Latin, Sanskrit etc by people who live and breathe these languages to warrant this dilettantism.

I've sat through enough bad papers in my time tbh and heard enough silly claims by grad students and, increasingly, lecturers for one lifetime.
Aah, intellego. That seems to be a growing problem in general, i.e. amateurs passing themselves off as experts or experts in one field thinking they're qualified in another field.

marcofurio
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:33 pm

Re: Greek and Latin learning via Skype. Classics at home.

Post by marcofurio »

“Those who wish to cultivate intercourse with the living Greeks, — and there may be not a few in London, Liverpool, and elsewhere to whom this advantage is open, — should accustom themselves, in reading prose at least, to pronounce the vowels and diphthongs exactly as the modern Greeks do; a habit which will be of great use even to exact scholarship, as it is certain
that the so-called modem Greek pronunciation is in its main peculiarities as ancient at least as our earliest manuscripts, which contain not a few errors springing obviously from the ears of the transcribers having been habituated to the vocalization 30 characteristic of the present Romaic. The peculiarity of this Byzantine orthoepy, as we may perhaps most correctly call it, is the predominance of the slender sound of ee, which, besides the two cases of ι and ει given above, engrosses also the three sounds of η, οι and υ. That this predominance of one of the feeblest sounds in the scale is both a corruption and a deformity need scarcely be proved ; it ought to be remembered, however, that it is both an early and a characteristic corruption, and harmonizes completely with what Quinctilian tells us of the character of the Greek vocalization as opposed to Latin in his days: “quamquam iis major est GRACILITAS, nos tamen sumus FORTIORES."”

Greek and English dialogues for use in schools, John S. Blackie 1871
https://archive.org/details/greekandenglish00blacgoog

I could not have expressed it better, and what is even more remarkable the above quoted reflection is in the middle of the author’s preliminary remarks describing a pronunciation which is not the “modern” (or historical) pronunciation. This really is in line with the idea of how little important pronunciation is, as long as it is kept constant and the language is orally practiced. A great book recently published (and wholly in Greek, but for a Spanish introduction for the teacher and a grammar index at the end) includes a CD recording all lessons in both the historical and the Erasmian pronunciation, so users may choose the one of his personal preference (1). This is actually an extra merit of the author who has very well argued points against Erasmian pronunciation (2). Incredibly interesting are both Blackie’s and Rouse’s (3) reflections on ancient tongues and the teaching process in general in his Greek teaching books, both of which I propose to be included in the Textkit library. Much more on the teaching-learning process is available at Vivarium Novum (4), with a brilliant conference regarding both Latin and Greek teaching. While the speaker (A Miraglia) employs the Italian-ecclesiastic pronunciation it nevertheless absolutely nice and clear Latin easily understood -Orbergis gratia- even when this tongue has been learned with pronuntiatio restituta, again showing how it is a not such an important issue (5).


(1) (http://www.culturaclasica.com/lingualat ... graeca.htm ivvox sample audios provided, no personal or commercial interest in it or in any other of the links I might have ever posted in the forum, disclosure included just in case… 8) ).
(2) http://aigialos.blogspot.com.es/2007/07 ... acias.html
(3) https://archive.org/details/AFirstGreekCourse
(4) https://vivariumnovum.it/risorse-didatt ... -didattica
(5) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4fhl74bC1A


Ὁμοίως χαίρω κἀγὼ σε γνωρίζων ὦ φίλε Μάρκε. Χαῖρε καὶ σύ, ὦ Σαῦλε,

Χαλεπὸν μὲν τὸ τὴν Ἑλληνικὴν φωνὴν γράφειν, ἡδονικὸν δέ. Εἰ γὰρ βουλόμεθα ἔν τε τῷ ἀναγιγνώσκειν καί ἐν τῷ γράφειν ταχύτεροι γίγνεσθαι δεῖ οὖν ἡμᾶς ἀλλήλοις ἀττικείζειν, ὡς ἑμοὶ δοκεῖ. Ταύτα ποιοῦντες ἡ μὲν ἡμῶν ἡδονὴ ταχέως αύξήσεται ἡ δὲ πόνος σαφῶς μειωθήσεται.

The idea of going from ancient to modern and back again is well developed at http://blogs.ua.es/santiago/category/re ... o-moderno/ with lots of links and suggestions for modern Greek learning. I started with the advanced One package which starts from scratch, beginning with alphabet.
http://www.greek123.com/learn-greek/pro ... dern-greek
What a surprise it was for me when at page 135 I discovered that the everywhere modern Greek preposition στον, στη, στο came from εἰς + τόν, τήν, τό. I am sure if you throw yourself into it you are going to obtain an impressive benefit from the Νέα Ελληνικά adventure, ὦ Σαῦλε.

User avatar
jeidsath
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 5332
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: Greek and Latin learning via Skype. Classics at home.

Post by jeidsath »

You may want to check out Blackie's "The Pronunciation of Greek" for a more thorough discussion: https://books.google.com/books?id=R4gCAAAAQAAJ

In the essay that you quote from, however, Blackie prints an example of katharevousa to prove how similar modern and ancient Greek were. That was disingenuous then, and it's completely wrong today.

Blackie and Rouse (both of whom I am a huge fan of) didn't agree on pronunciation. Here are recordings of Rouse's pronunciation: https://archive.org/details/grc-whdr-sounds.b

The great difficulties that I personally have with a Modern Greek pronunciation are 1) that too many sounds have disappeared from the language and 2) vowel length has disappeared. The first makes grammar (and many words) hard to learn due to the frequency of collision. The second makes the reading of poetry unlovely.

Rouse, I think, demonstrated that there is another option. You've mentioned his First Greek Course a couple of times. It's not at all meant for self-study. It's really a handbook for a teacher to teach a conversation based class in Greek, together with Rouse's reader "A Greek Boy At Home." For a detailed description of Rouse's approach, read his "Teaching of Greek at the Perse School": https://archive.org/details/teachingofgreeka00grea
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

marcofurio
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:33 pm

Re: Greek and Latin learning via Skype. Classics at home.

Post by marcofurio »

Thank you, Jeidsath for those interesting links to Rouse (impressive to learn his voice was recorded!) and Blackie's book. A first greek course might not be A first greek course, as very soon it reaches a high level of difficulty in my opinion, but at an intermediate level the excercises proposed in the Reading and specially Conversation Lessons are very interesting. I got a really faster understanding of Greek when reading say Xenophon or Herodotos after orally doing all excercises at the end of each lesson, and that is the reason of my advicing the book as a learning tool.

eg. Lesson III

λύπης ἰατρός ἐστιν ἀνθρώποις λόγος.

τί ἐστι λύπης ἰατρός ἀνθρώποις; τίνος ἐστίν ἰατρός; τίσιν ἰατρός ἐστι λύπης λόγος; κτλ.

User avatar
calvinist
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 474
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:24 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Greek and Latin learning via Skype. Classics at home.

Post by calvinist »

As jeidsath said, the problem with using the Modern Greek pronunciation is that if one wants to "internalize" the language aurally the Modern pronunciation levels the Ancient Greek too much. For example, the subjunctive mood becomes almost completely leveled with a Modern pronunciation:

Ind. Subj. Opt.
λεγω=λεγω λεγοιμι
λεγεις=λεγης=λεγοις
λεγει=λεγη=λεγοι
λεγομεν=λεγωμεν λεγοιμεν
λεγετε λεγητε=λεγοιτε
λεγουσιν λεγωσιν λεγοιεν

The Imperial Koine pronunciation I use is similar to the Modern pronunciation, but it maintains a distinction between ει/η/οι, so the same table becomes:

Ind. Subj. Opt.
λεγω=λεγω λεγοιμι
λεγεις λεγης λεγοις
λεγει λεγη λεγοι
λεγομεν=λεγωμεν λεγοιμεν
λεγετε λεγητε λεγοιτε
λεγουσιν λεγωσιν λεγοιεν

Languages can handle a certain amount of ambiguity like English two/too/to, but the level of ambiguity that itacism produced in Greek necessitated some restructuring of the language. The Ancient language just doesn't "work" with a Modern pronunciation. Another one usually mentioned is ημεις=υμεις. I don't know of any language in the world that doesn't consider that distinction important, and the verb endings don't remove the ambiguity for the oblique cases. <--- Is that the correct term for "non-nominative" cases?

User avatar
jeidsath
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 5332
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: Greek and Latin learning via Skype. Classics at home.

Post by jeidsath »

@marcofurio

Yes, the conversation exercises in First Greek Course are all very good. I do them with friends. See here for an example of how it could work in the classroom:

https://archive.org/stream/teachingofgr ... 2/mode/2up
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

User avatar
calvinist
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 474
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:24 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Greek and Latin learning via Skype. Classics at home.

Post by calvinist »

jeidsath wrote:1) that too many sounds have disappeared from the language and 2) vowel length has disappeared. The first makes grammar (and many words) hard to learn due to the frequency of collision. The second makes the reading of poetry unlovely.
Joel, I agree with the first, but I know that the second can be overcome. I don't read much Greek poetry, but I do read Latin poetry quite a bit in the same epic meter. I use the restored pronunciation for Latin but without the vowel lengths. However, I've learned how to lay the vowel lengths over the words when I read poetry. It's not as natural, of course, but I think a similar thing is done even in English, for instance in song lyrics where syllables are stretched or compressed to fit the "meter". I first realized this when listening to "Sure Shot" by the Beastie Boys. I know, bad comparison to make with epic Greek/Latin poetry. But I noticed the lengthening of vowels in the delivery of these lines: "timing like a clock when I rock the hip-hop/ top notch is my stock on the soap box/ I've got more rhymes than I've got grey hairs/ and that's a lot because I've had my share." There's a deliberate lengthening of clock/rock/hop/notch/stock/box which not only emphasizes the rhyme, but gives a certain rhythm to the lines. The older generation of hip-hop artists (80s-90s) considered a rapper's "flow" one of the essential skills along with rhyming and the use of metaphor/figurative language. What they meant by "flow" is similar to "meter" in poetry but is more mutable. All that to say, I think that once one gets the feel for dactylic hexameter and knows the rules for vowel lengths it's not too hard to switch from mono-length (monomekos? 8) ) when reading prose to the short-long distinction when reading poetry.

User avatar
jeidsath
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 5332
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: Greek and Latin learning via Skype. Classics at home.

Post by jeidsath »

Poetry is more subtle than music. You can make anything sound like iambic pentameter (Shakespeare) if you are willing to fake the beat. Any actor can do this. But it won't hit the soul. Similarly, if we are willing to fake vowel lengths, we can read Xenophon like it was dactylic hexameter.

Here's a recent attempt of mine from the thread on Lyric poetry: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzQhAavDvSU

I have no idea what the meter is supposed to be -- and I've purposely not tried to analyze it. I can't read all Greek poetry yet -- usually because I trip on hard words -- but some poems are beginning (just beginning) to come alive for me as I read them. In English, I read a great amount of poetry but know nothing whatsoever about what the meter should be. I would like to be at that level with Greek. I'm sure that it's achievable.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

User avatar
calvinist
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 474
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:24 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Greek and Latin learning via Skype. Classics at home.

Post by calvinist »

jeidsath wrote:Poetry is more subtle than music.
I take your point, and I agree with you completely in regards to modern poetry in European languages. What do we know about ancient poetry though? I really don't know much about this topic since poetry is not my main interest in Greek/Latin. But wasn't ancient oral poetry tied to music much deeper? Modern poetry is usually not recited with music, but wasn't that the norm with the ancients? It's also interesting that we talk about "reading" or "reciting" poetry but the ancients talked about "singing" it: μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος and Virgil's opening line: Arma virumque cano Troiae qui primus ab oris (cano is the source of "chant" and "cantor"). How subtle was the meter when these poems were performed? I remember reading a paper that argued that one of the purposes of the meter in ancient poetry was to produce entrainment effects on the hearers and give the poem a religious/mystical atmosphere. If that's true, I would think the poetry would need to have a strong sense of rhythm. Like I said, I know very little about this; do you know of any good resources on this topic?

marcofurio
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:33 pm

Re: Greek and Latin learning via Skype. Classics at home.

Post by marcofurio »

The five different ways of writing the same sound (υ = ι = η = ει = οι) in Greek historical pronuntiation drives mad nowadays Greek schoolboys but if you understand the sense of the text you will be able of correctly writing when someone else reads it aloud.

eg: Τῇ δὲ ὑστεραίᾳ ἔωθεν ὁ Δικαιόπολις ἐκ τοῦ οἴκου ἐκβαίνει (Athen II.23)

Regarding verse reading here is a very interesting essay about fake accents and syllable length which you might find useful, Calvinist (1). Listen to this beautiful reading of Aeneis, where I think no accents are made up (2).


(1) http://es.scribd.com/doc/21226971/De-ve ... rido-Stroh
(2) https://librivox.org/aeneidis-libri-xii ... lius-maro/

mwh
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 4791
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: Greek and Latin learning via Skype. Classics at home.

Post by mwh »

The first of these links, on how to pronounce Latin verse, by Wilfried Stroh, a wellknown German scholar, is very good (though I wouldn’t agree with quite everything, and the notes in the musical settings are best ignored). The second seems to me dreadful. There's a recording of Stroh himself reading Aeneid 4: http://www.wiredforbooks.org/aeneid/ (non audii).

marcofurio
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:33 pm

Re: Greek and Latin learning via Skype. Classics at home.

Post by marcofurio »

Χαίρε mwh,
I quite liked Strohl's reading and would really appreciate if you explained wether you do not like Malone's because of taste reasons (I personally do not enjoy Lombardo's Homer readings) or for technical reasons related to ictus and syllable lengths.

mwh
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 4791
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: Greek and Latin learning via Skype. Classics at home.

Post by mwh »

“Dreadful" may have been overstated. There are many good qualities in Malone's rendering. But as I listen again to the first few lines what I don’t like is how he tends to stress the metrical longum (the "ictus") when the word accent actually falls elsewhere,
e.g. 4, vi superUM saevAE memorEM
9-11 quidve dolENS regina deUM
insigNEM pietate virUM
IMpulerit. tantaen’ aniMIS.
(I could have misheard or misnoted some of these, but they jarred as I listened.)
That's a traditional but yes dreadful way to read hexameters, as Stroh rightly insists. In overprivileging the meter it deadens the dynamics of the line. It skews the relation between meter and accent, and in so doing masks the Vergilian heterodyning, the verse's internal push-pull conflict that's resolved only by the closing cadence. So I don’t think my disapproval is wholly subjective or just a matter of “taste.”
And some of the vowel quantities are off, e.g. 9 casus with short u and some of the hidden quantities.
And his vowel sounds, though I don’t care about that so long as they’re distinct from one another and the long/short distinction respected, as in general they are.

So yes, beautiful enough in its way, I agree, but not doing justice to the true beauties of Vergilian versification.

It might be interesting to compare (which I haven’t done) the various Aeneid recitations linked by Pat Larash at http://people.bu.edu/plarash/recitation.html

—But we now appear to be in the wrong thread as well as the wrong forum!

Post Reply