O Brother Where Art Thou
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O Brother Where Art Thou
I woke up this morning with the ridiculous idea of translating songs from the Coen brothers movie into Greek. Since it's an adaptation of the Odyssey, I thought it would be funny to adapt it backwards...
κατέβην εις τόν ποταμόν προσεύχεσθαι
μανθάνων τὴν εὐθὺς ὁδόν
ὦ κύριε, δείκνυε με τὴν ὁδόν...
ὦ ἀδελφαί, καταβήομεν
καταβήομεν, κατάβηθι
ὦ ἀδελφαί, καταβήομεν
εις τόν ποταμόν προσεύχεσθαι
I'm not sure I used the subjunctive and imperative correctly there.
κατέβην εις τόν ποταμόν προσεύχεσθαι
μανθάνων τὴν εὐθὺς ὁδόν
ὦ κύριε, δείκνυε με τὴν ὁδόν...
ὦ ἀδελφαί, καταβήομεν
καταβήομεν, κατάβηθι
ὦ ἀδελφαί, καταβήομεν
εις τόν ποταμόν προσεύχεσθαι
I'm not sure I used the subjunctive and imperative correctly there.
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
εὖγε, φίλτατε!
εἰς ποταμὸν καταβάς,
ἵνα προσευχόμενος τὴν ἁγίαν ὀδὴν μάθω,
εἶπον
τίνι, Κύριε, ὁ ἀστερώδης στέφανος?
τὴν δ’ ὁδόν σου φανέρωσόν μοι.
εἰς ποταμὸν καταβάς,
ἵνα προσευχόμενος τὴν ἁγίαν ὀδὴν μάθω,
εἶπον
τίνι, Κύριε, ὁ ἀστερώδης στέφανος?
τὴν δ’ ὁδόν σου φανέρωσόν μοι.
οὐ μανθάνω γράφειν, ἀλλὰ γράφω τοῦ μαθεῖν.
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
Letters - You’re aware your κατέβην εις τόν ποταμόν προσεύχεσθαι echoes the opening of Plato’s Republic?! κατεβην χθες εις Πειραια … προσευξομενος …
That tells you προσευξόμενος—or rather -μένη?—would be better than infin. in your version too.
Not sure what next line is meant to mean (I forget the words), but your participle is masculine. (Markos makes his singer male, I guess with ref to himself.)
δεινυε με: μοι
καταβωμεν.
καταβηθι is singular.
Now you can try “You woke up this morning
Got yourself a gun, “ etc.
That tells you προσευξόμενος—or rather -μένη?—would be better than infin. in your version too.
Not sure what next line is meant to mean (I forget the words), but your participle is masculine. (Markos makes his singer male, I guess with ref to himself.)
δεινυε με: μοι
καταβωμεν.
καταβηθι is singular.
Now you can try “You woke up this morning
Got yourself a gun, “ etc.
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
ἠγείρας ὁ ὄρθρος, σεαυτῇ
ἔσχες τὸ πυροβόλον ὅπλον.
λέξασα ὁτὶ ἔκκριτος ἔσῇ
μήτηρ οὗτως ἀεὶ ἦν.
ἔσχες τὸ πυροβόλον ὅπλον.
λέξασα ὁτὶ ἔκκριτος ἔσῇ
μήτηρ οὗτως ἀεὶ ἦν.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
Sorry Joel, that really doesn't make much sense. Minimal amendment:
ὄρθριος εγερθεὶς
ελαβες οπλον πυροβολον·
ἡ γαρ μαμμη αει προὔλεγεν
ὡς (συ δη) γενησῃ ὁ εκκριτος.
ορθριος εξ υπνου ανόρουσας· δη τοτ’ ελαφρως
εξελθων ελαβες χερσιν εκατηβολον ιον·
…
ὄρθριος εγερθεὶς
ελαβες οπλον πυροβολον·
ἡ γαρ μαμμη αει προὔλεγεν
ὡς (συ δη) γενησῃ ὁ εκκριτος.
ορθριος εξ υπνου ανόρουσας· δη τοτ’ ελαφρως
εξελθων ελαβες χερσιν εκατηβολον ιον·
…
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
υπνου : υπνων coni. Qimmicius
χερσιν εκατηβολον ιον: χειροιν εκατηβολα τόξα coni. Qimmicius, fort. recte
χερσιν εκατηβολον ιον: χειροιν εκατηβολα τόξα coni. Qimmicius, fort. recte
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
@mwh That makes far more sense to me than my own. A good sign, probably.
And as far as Qimmik's conjectures:
1) υπνου -> υπνων. Is this because slumber is often plural with a preposition? There's no metrical reason for it?
2) χερσιν -> χειροιν. Because this makes it scan.
3) ιον -> τόξα. Again, no metrical reason, but bow seems a more likely representation of gun than arrow?
And as far as Qimmik's conjectures:
1) υπνου -> υπνων. Is this because slumber is often plural with a preposition? There's no metrical reason for it?
2) χερσιν -> χειροιν. Because this makes it scan.
3) ιον -> τόξα. Again, no metrical reason, but bow seems a more likely representation of gun than arrow?
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
υπνων avoids hiatus, which would probably entail correption.
τόξα because why would you pick up a single arrow with both hands?
τόξα because why would you pick up a single arrow with both hands?
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
@Qimmik
And I was hoping for the continuation!
ορθριος εξ υπνου ανόρουσας came of its own accord while I was writing ορθριος in Joel’s, so I carried on a bit. Instinct told me that υπνου was right as against υπνοι(ο), and now that I check I find that it is (e.g. Il.10.138 |εξ υπνου ανεγειρε, Od.4.839 η δ’ εξ υπνου ανορουσε|). Maybe it started out as υπνοιο? υπνων would hardly do.
The rest is clumsy, and should teach me not to extemporize hexameters without first immersing myself in Homer etc. But I didn’t want to spend time improving it. Your dual χειροιν rings unepic to me.
@jeidsath
Hope you got something out of my amendments to yours.
As to my jeu d’esprit
1) Q did have metrical reason for υπνου -> υπνων, but the hiatus is perfectly Homeric, see above, and the plural wd suggest a dream rather than sleep. Epic characters routinely wake εξ υπνου.
2) χερσιν scans just fine: initial digamma often operative with εκ(ατ)ηβολος.
3) I chose arrow as being something he would shoot from a distance. But it is admittedly awkward with pl. χερσιν, which has something else about it that I don’t like too (position?). We could have e.g. χειρεσσ’ ελαβες πτεροεντας οιστους. Or ελαβες χειρεσσ’ ολεσηνορα τοξα (or χειρεσσι(ν) εκηβολα τοξα, tamer). — Or e.g. |εξηλθες, χερι δ’ αυτιχ’ ἕλου μαλ’ ολεθριον ιον. Just thinking out loud here. Lots of possibilities. Depends how Homeric we want to be.
And I was hoping for the continuation!
ορθριος εξ υπνου ανόρουσας came of its own accord while I was writing ορθριος in Joel’s, so I carried on a bit. Instinct told me that υπνου was right as against υπνοι(ο), and now that I check I find that it is (e.g. Il.10.138 |εξ υπνου ανεγειρε, Od.4.839 η δ’ εξ υπνου ανορουσε|). Maybe it started out as υπνοιο? υπνων would hardly do.
The rest is clumsy, and should teach me not to extemporize hexameters without first immersing myself in Homer etc. But I didn’t want to spend time improving it. Your dual χειροιν rings unepic to me.
@jeidsath
Hope you got something out of my amendments to yours.
As to my jeu d’esprit
1) Q did have metrical reason for υπνου -> υπνων, but the hiatus is perfectly Homeric, see above, and the plural wd suggest a dream rather than sleep. Epic characters routinely wake εξ υπνου.
2) χερσιν scans just fine: initial digamma often operative with εκ(ατ)ηβολος.
3) I chose arrow as being something he would shoot from a distance. But it is admittedly awkward with pl. χερσιν, which has something else about it that I don’t like too (position?). We could have e.g. χειρεσσ’ ελαβες πτεροεντας οιστους. Or ελαβες χειρεσσ’ ολεσηνορα τοξα (or χειρεσσι(ν) εκηβολα τοξα, tamer). — Or e.g. |εξηλθες, χερι δ’ αυτιχ’ ἕλου μαλ’ ολεθριον ιον. Just thinking out loud here. Lots of possibilities. Depends how Homeric we want to be.
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
You've placed it at foot 3.5 which would be unique for the Iliad. Here's the placement histogram for χερσίν and its 71 appearances in the Iliad:But it is admittedly awkward with pl. χερσιν, which has something else about it that I don’t like too (position?).
1.0 21.4%
2.0 8.5%
2.5 1.4% (once)
3.0 20%
4.5 1.4% (once)
5.0 28.5%
6.0 18.6%
Very rare on the on second half of the foot, and it never appears on the first part of the 4th foot. I assume the caesura is the explanation for the second fact.
In its three appearances preceding a word beginning with a consonant, it's moved up to the middle of the foot twice. W.S. Allen would explain this with his stress theory: stress should land on the long for a _ . word (χερσίν). and it should land on second long for _ _ (χερσίν τε). χερσίν seems to fit the theory well enough.
Your placement at 3.5 should be fine according to his theory, but χερσίν does seem to like to sit on the beginning of a foot. And Allen could be wrong -- maybe χερσίν sits at the beginning of a foot all the time because that's just the easiest place to put it.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
Thanks Joel. Good to know my instinct matches the stats!
But iambics are so much easier:
πρωος δ’ εγερθεις τοξον ευθυς ημπολας.
μητηρ γαρ ελεγε πολλακις· “συ παι κυρεις
οὑξαιρετος τε χὡ θεοις ειρμαρμενος.”
Easy as pie.
But iambics are so much easier:
πρωος δ’ εγερθεις τοξον ευθυς ημπολας.
μητηρ γαρ ελεγε πολλακις· “συ παι κυρεις
οὑξαιρετος τε χὡ θεοις ειρμαρμενος.”
Easy as pie.
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
@mwh
Εκατηβολος qualifying a bow or an arrow (insteaf of being an epithet of Apollo) doesn't seem a Homeric usage to me. Not that it's important.
@jeidseth
How did you produce those stats?
Εκατηβολος qualifying a bow or an arrow (insteaf of being an epithet of Apollo) doesn't seem a Homeric usage to me. Not that it's important.
@jeidseth
How did you produce those stats?
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
I also tried my hand at this; it proved fiendishly difficult to keep to the meter, at least at my level, with no previous experience of composing hexameters. I actually though it would be easy, as the original has an obviously "Odyssean" flavor. The γε especially is weak, but I can't keep to the meter otherwise.
εἴμ᾽ ἀνὴρ δύστηνος τις, ὧι κήδεα θυμῶι
μυρί᾽, ἃ αἰὲν ἴδον γε διαμπερὲς ἤματα πάντα
In constant sorrow all through his days
I am a man of constant sorrow
I've seen trouble all my days
I bid farewell to old Kentucky
The place where I was born and raised
[...]
εἴμ᾽ ἀνὴρ δύστηνος τις, ὧι κήδεα θυμῶι
μυρί᾽, ἃ αἰὲν ἴδον γε διαμπερὲς ἤματα πάντα
In constant sorrow all through his days
I am a man of constant sorrow
I've seen trouble all my days
I bid farewell to old Kentucky
The place where I was born and raised
[...]
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
That's exactly what the aoidoi did--throw in a convenient particle to fit the meter. ra might work better.The γε especially is weak, but I can't keep to the meter otherwise.
The hexameter is ill-adapted to Greek. Iambs are closer to actual Greek speech. In fact, Aristophanic dialogue, which admits more metrical liberties that tragedy, is colloquial Attic.
ws ar' egwn dusthnos anhr, ktl.
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
Or perhaps
εἴμ᾽ ἐγώ ἀνήρ δύστηνος, ὧι κήδεα θυμῶι
μυρί᾽, ἃ αἰὲν ἴδον ρα διαμπερὲς ἤματα πάντα
This gets rids of the τις that really isn't in the original. How about ρα instead of γε? Not much better, but well.
εἴμ᾽ ἐγώ ἀνήρ δύστηνος, ὧι κήδεα θυμῶι
μυρί᾽, ἃ αἰὲν ἴδον ρα διαμπερὲς ἤματα πάντα
This gets rids of the τις that really isn't in the original. How about ρα instead of γε? Not much better, but well.
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
I too was surprised how difficult it is to write decent hexameters, but then I’ve never gone in for composing them either. Iambics seem to come quite naturally, though.
ανηρ has short alpha. You could write ἁνηρ (ὁ ανηρ crasis) but that’s unepic? Qimmik’s ως αρ’ would mean “In this way.” I guess he means ως exclamatory, but that wouldn’t be followed by αρα. You can’t just go throwing in particles at will. ως δυστηνος ανηρ τις εγωγ’? Νο, τις wrong with ως. δυστηνος τις εγω(γε/ν) wd make a possible kick-off.
ἃ αἰὲν ἴδον won’t do (α αιεν hiatus, and Widon). α μ’ αμφιβεβηκε??
My/Q’s use of εκ(ατ)ηβολος extended the word’s reference from the god to his arrows, and then to any arrows. That kind of extension of epithets beyond their Homeric application is characteristic of post-Homeric authors, e.g. the Hellenistic poets and even Stesichorus. If you want to be strictly Homeric, we can stick with πτεροεντας οιστους. My distinctly unhomeric ολεσηνορα τοξα alluded to a scene in Stesichorus that was in my mind at the time. — But I have no wish to defend my verses, which were tossed off on the spur of the moment and are quite horrid. The iambics are better I think.
ανηρ has short alpha. You could write ἁνηρ (ὁ ανηρ crasis) but that’s unepic? Qimmik’s ως αρ’ would mean “In this way.” I guess he means ως exclamatory, but that wouldn’t be followed by αρα. You can’t just go throwing in particles at will. ως δυστηνος ανηρ τις εγωγ’? Νο, τις wrong with ως. δυστηνος τις εγω(γε/ν) wd make a possible kick-off.
ἃ αἰὲν ἴδον won’t do (α αιεν hiatus, and Widon). α μ’ αμφιβεβηκε??
My/Q’s use of εκ(ατ)ηβολος extended the word’s reference from the god to his arrows, and then to any arrows. That kind of extension of epithets beyond their Homeric application is characteristic of post-Homeric authors, e.g. the Hellenistic poets and even Stesichorus. If you want to be strictly Homeric, we can stick with πτεροεντας οιστους. My distinctly unhomeric ολεσηνορα τοξα alluded to a scene in Stesichorus that was in my mind at the time. — But I have no wish to defend my verses, which were tossed off on the spur of the moment and are quite horrid. The iambics are better I think.
Last edited by mwh on Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
εἴμ᾽ ἐγώ [hiatus!] ἀνήρ δύστηνος -- doesn't scan as dactylic hexameter. _ v _ v _ _ _ v _
δύστηνος ἀνήρ ὧι κήδεα θυμῶι this much (w/ feminine caesura) would scan.
How about ὤμοι ἐγώ δύστηνος ἀνήρ ὧι κήδεα θυμῶι
ὤμοι ἀνήρ ws eimi talas ὧι κήδεα θυμῶι
For the hiatus and correption, Il. 1.149.
δύστηνος ἀνήρ ὧι κήδεα θυμῶι this much (w/ feminine caesura) would scan.
How about ὤμοι ἐγώ δύστηνος ἀνήρ ὧι κήδεα θυμῶι
ὤμοι ἀνήρ ws eimi talas ὧι κήδεα θυμῶι
For the hiatus and correption, Il. 1.149.
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
Well, ἀνήρ does occur with a long α although it's not very common. According to LSJ, "Ep. Poets mostly use ᾱ in arsi, ᾰ in thesi; but in trisyll. forms with stem ἀνέρ- always ᾱ; so also Trag. in lyr., S.Tr.1011, OT869. But in Trag. senarians ᾰ always." At a quick glance, the nominative is not uncommon as the last word of the verse, when the α is in arsis (forgive me the use of the word ).
But there is also:
IL.12.382 χείρεσσ' ἀμφοτέρῃς ἔχοι ἀνὴρ οὐδὲ μάλ' ἡβῶν
For ἐγὼ, I thought correption would shorten the ω--correption being the rule, not the exception, although correption of ω is less frequent than that of diphthongs (so West, Greek Metre, p. 12). So although ἀνήρ with long α in thesis is irregular, I'm not convinced yet my line is totally un-Homeric, just clumsy (a modern commentator would call it "tired style", I guess)!
For ϝἴδον, I thought I needn't always respect the digamma, although I did in the previous line (ϝὧι).
For the hiatus in ἃ αἰὲν, point taken.
So, another clumsy attempt (Not that I dislike the other versions above):
εἴμ᾽ ἐγώ ἀνήρ δύστηνος, ὧι κήδεα θυμῶι
μυρί᾽, ἃ ρ᾽ αἰὲν ἴδον γε διαμπερὲς ἤματα πάντα
But there is also:
IL.12.382 χείρεσσ' ἀμφοτέρῃς ἔχοι ἀνὴρ οὐδὲ μάλ' ἡβῶν
For ἐγὼ, I thought correption would shorten the ω--correption being the rule, not the exception, although correption of ω is less frequent than that of diphthongs (so West, Greek Metre, p. 12). So although ἀνήρ with long α in thesis is irregular, I'm not convinced yet my line is totally un-Homeric, just clumsy (a modern commentator would call it "tired style", I guess)!
For ϝἴδον, I thought I needn't always respect the digamma, although I did in the previous line (ϝὧι).
For the hiatus in ἃ αἰὲν, point taken.
So, another clumsy attempt (Not that I dislike the other versions above):
εἴμ᾽ ἐγώ ἀνήρ δύστηνος, ὧι κήδεα θυμῶι
μυρί᾽, ἃ ρ᾽ αἰὲν ἴδον γε διαμπερὲς ἤματα πάντα
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
I quickly went through all the occurrences of ἀνήρ nom. sing. and didn't find a single one with long α in thesis, although it's not wholly uncommon in arsis.
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
Thanks for setting the record straight on ανηρ Paul.
For my own edification I looked through Homeric occurences of ιδον in TLG, 76 in number. The erstwhile digamma is almost always effective. The exceptions, real or apparent, are:
εγων ιδον 4x Od.: obviously should be (or originally was) εγω ιδον.
ουκ ιδον 2x Il., 1x Od. Likewise, i.e. ου ιδον.
εμοισ’ ιδον 1x Od.: εμοις ιδον.
τον δ’ ιδον Od.4.556. Already corrected by Bentley to τον ιδον, which everyone accepts (except presumably van Thiel, who accepts in the medieval tradition); the syndeton is idiomatic.
τοιουτον ιδον βροτον Od.6.160. Old v.l. (and pap.) τοιουτον εγων ιδον, to be preferred (εγω ιδον, see above).
Residue is very small: two instances, both in Od.:
καλλιστον ιδον Od.11.522. To be accepted? (but cf. the case of 6.160 above).
ενθ’ ιδον Od.12.258.
Results are similar for other forms:
ιδεειν: always digamma except for τ’ ιδεειν (Od.), which will originally have been τε ιδειν (as in Il.).
Similarly ιδειν (not counting e.g. εν μεγαροισιν ιδειν).
Similarly ιδε(ν), most of the time, but line-init. |νυν δ’ ιδεν, |τον δ’ ιδεν (but also τον δε ιδεν), |ως δ’ ιδεν. In some of these the δ’ is no doubt a false metri gratia addition (cf. the classic τον {δ’} ιδον at Od.4.556), but not all?
In other forms, which I haven’t thoroughly checked, the digamma is the norm but not invariable. 19th-cent. attempts to “restore” digamma absolutely everywhere in Homer didn’t succeed. It was a relic, compositionally built in but already beginning to fade by Homer’s time. But without question it was falsely eliminated in many places in the course of later transmission (see above for instances). I forget if it’s observed less often in Od than in Il, but I’d expect so.
For my own edification I looked through Homeric occurences of ιδον in TLG, 76 in number. The erstwhile digamma is almost always effective. The exceptions, real or apparent, are:
εγων ιδον 4x Od.: obviously should be (or originally was) εγω ιδον.
ουκ ιδον 2x Il., 1x Od. Likewise, i.e. ου ιδον.
εμοισ’ ιδον 1x Od.: εμοις ιδον.
τον δ’ ιδον Od.4.556. Already corrected by Bentley to τον ιδον, which everyone accepts (except presumably van Thiel, who accepts in the medieval tradition); the syndeton is idiomatic.
τοιουτον ιδον βροτον Od.6.160. Old v.l. (and pap.) τοιουτον εγων ιδον, to be preferred (εγω ιδον, see above).
Residue is very small: two instances, both in Od.:
καλλιστον ιδον Od.11.522. To be accepted? (but cf. the case of 6.160 above).
ενθ’ ιδον Od.12.258.
Results are similar for other forms:
ιδεειν: always digamma except for τ’ ιδεειν (Od.), which will originally have been τε ιδειν (as in Il.).
Similarly ιδειν (not counting e.g. εν μεγαροισιν ιδειν).
Similarly ιδε(ν), most of the time, but line-init. |νυν δ’ ιδεν, |τον δ’ ιδεν (but also τον δε ιδεν), |ως δ’ ιδεν. In some of these the δ’ is no doubt a false metri gratia addition (cf. the classic τον {δ’} ιδον at Od.4.556), but not all?
In other forms, which I haven’t thoroughly checked, the digamma is the norm but not invariable. 19th-cent. attempts to “restore” digamma absolutely everywhere in Homer didn’t succeed. It was a relic, compositionally built in but already beginning to fade by Homer’s time. But without question it was falsely eliminated in many places in the course of later transmission (see above for instances). I forget if it’s observed less often in Od than in Il, but I’d expect so.
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
No, got it now. εμοισ’ ιδον avoids hiatus, which cannot be if there's a digamma.I didn't get the point about this one:
εμοισ’ ιδον 1x Od.: εμοις ιδον.
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
Sorry, I should have replied to the previous post by myself, but edited it instead.
One correction to mwh above:
ενθ’ ιδον Od.12.258: should be 17.118.
Anyway, this is very interesting and it looks like the digamma was respected in some words for longer than in others.
One correction to mwh above:
ενθ’ ιδον Od.12.258: should be 17.118.
Anyway, this is very interesting and it looks like the digamma was respected in some words for longer than in others.
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
εἴμ᾽ ἐγώ ἀνήρ δύστηνος, ὧι κήδεα θυμῶι
This still needs work, even if you accept correption of -ώ and lengthening of ἀ- in arsis. -τηνος ὧι yields (gasp!) a cretic, and the verse doesn't have proper caesuras. A fourth-foot caesura requires a second-foot caesura. See my suggestions above.
μυρί᾽, ἃ ρ᾽ αἰὲν ἴδον γε διαμπερὲς ἤματα πάντα -- τ' might work better than ρ᾽
ἴδον γε -- Would this count as a caesura (I'm not sure a word-break is treated as occurring before an enclitic particle)? At any rate, ἴδον __ διαμπερὲς sets you up for a problem, because you need a (feminine) caesura after -δον, and the next word can only be a monosyllable ending in a short vowel.
How about πολλα, μ'ἀεικίζοντα διαμπερὲς ἤματα πάντα ? Sacrificing the idea of "knowing" troubles--but in rendering something like this into Greek hexameters, you're setting yourself up for failure if you aren't willing to sacrifice some nuance, because the one thing you can't sacrifice is meter (including proper caesuras).
I'm not sure that two feminine caesuras in a row would be permissible.
It helps to have an extensive repertory of metrically well-formed formulas in your brain, and essentially to be able to think in hexameters.
This still needs work, even if you accept correption of -ώ and lengthening of ἀ- in arsis. -τηνος ὧι yields (gasp!) a cretic, and the verse doesn't have proper caesuras. A fourth-foot caesura requires a second-foot caesura. See my suggestions above.
μυρί᾽, ἃ ρ᾽ αἰὲν ἴδον γε διαμπερὲς ἤματα πάντα -- τ' might work better than ρ᾽
ἴδον γε -- Would this count as a caesura (I'm not sure a word-break is treated as occurring before an enclitic particle)? At any rate, ἴδον __ διαμπερὲς sets you up for a problem, because you need a (feminine) caesura after -δον, and the next word can only be a monosyllable ending in a short vowel.
How about πολλα, μ'ἀεικίζοντα διαμπερὲς ἤματα πάντα ? Sacrificing the idea of "knowing" troubles--but in rendering something like this into Greek hexameters, you're setting yourself up for failure if you aren't willing to sacrifice some nuance, because the one thing you can't sacrifice is meter (including proper caesuras).
I'm not sure that two feminine caesuras in a row would be permissible.
It helps to have an extensive repertory of metrically well-formed formulas in your brain, and essentially to be able to think in hexameters.
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
Quite so. The lack of proper caesuras is unforgivable. Still, instead of putting these verses out of their misery, let me reformulate a bit. I'm taking ὧι with a digamma, so I'm leaving that as it is.Qimmik wrote:εἴμ᾽ ἐγώ ἀνήρ δύστηνος, ὧι κήδεα θυμῶι
This still needs work, even if you accept correption of -ώ and lengthening of ἀ- in arsis. -τηνος ὧι yields (gasp!) a cretic, and the verse doesn't have proper caesuras. A fourth-foot caesura requires a second-foot caesura. See my suggestions above.
Qimmik wrote:ἴδον γε -- Would this count as a caesura (I'm not sure a word-break is treated as occurring before an enclitic particle)? At any rate, ἴδον __ διαμπερὲς sets you up for a problem, because you need a (feminine) caesura after -δον, and the next word can only be a monosyllable ending in a short vowel.
Yes, yesterday I became very well acquainted with the problem you're describing!I'm not sure that two feminine caesuras in a row would be permissible.
I think ἴδον γε is, from a phonetic point of view, a single word, inseparable in scansion. Thus this line can only have a feminine caesura. But I don't think two feminine caesuras in row are not permissible--it's the most common type of caesura in Homer. Homer is not alternating between masculine and feminine caesura every other line, and the hephthemimeral caesura is rare. An example of consecutive feminine caesuras:
οἰωνοῖσί τε πᾶσι,| Διὸς δ᾽ ἐτελείετο βουλή,
ἐξ οὗ δὴ τὰ πρῶτα| διαστήτην ἐρίσαντε
These are wise words. And mwh has shown that ἴδον without a digamma is probably not Homeric. Still, I'm persisting in my folly!How about πολλα, μ'ἀεικίζοντα διαμπερὲς ἤματα πάντα ? Sacrificing the idea of "knowing" troubles--but in rendering something like this into Greek hexameters, you're setting yourself up for failure if you aren't willing to sacrifice some nuance, because the one thing you can't sacrifice is meter (including proper caesuras).
Yes, I know! The important lesson here is that we should routinely poetry like poetry, by articulating the verses at least mentally, and not treat the meter as an occasional exercise.Qimmik wrote:It helps to have an extensive repertory of metrically well-formed formulas in your brain, and essentially to be able to think in hexameters.
So, let me assassinate Homer once more (and notice a couple of corrected accents!):
ἀνὴρ εἴμ᾽ ἐγὼ δύστηνος, ὧι κήδεα θυμῶι
μυρί᾽, ἃ ρ᾽ αἰὲν ἴδον γε διαμπερὲς ἤματα πάντα
Or, taking Qimmik as my accomplice:
ἀνὴρ εἴμ᾽ ἐγὼ δύστηνος, ὧι κήδεα θυμῶι
πολλά, μ' ἀεικίζοντα διαμπερὲς ἤματα πάντα
But let me quote a couple of comforting words from Martin West (Greek Metre, p. 36):
"Hexameters with no caesura at all are very occasionally found in inscriptions [...], where standards of versification are often atrocious."
Last edited by Paul Derouda on Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
Oops, my "correction" above is obviously not working. ω in ἐγὼ is no longer shortened!
I quit!
I quit!
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
"At any rate, ἴδον __ διαμπερὲς sets you up for a problem, because you need a (feminine) caesura after -δον, and the next word can only be a monosyllable ending in a short vowel."
I wrote this; it's wrong.
I wrote this; it's wrong.
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
Here I go again:
ἀνὴρ εἴμ᾽ ἐγὼ οἴκτιστος, ὧι κήδεα θυμῶι
μυρί᾽, ἃ ρ᾽ αἰὲν ἴδον γε διαμπερὲς ἤματα πάντα
May the gods have mercy on me.
ἀνὴρ εἴμ᾽ ἐγὼ οἴκτιστος, ὧι κήδεα θυμῶι
μυρί᾽, ἃ ρ᾽ αἰὲν ἴδον γε διαμπερὲς ἤματα πάντα
May the gods have mercy on me.
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
May they indeed. Gratuitous insertion of γε is known as the remedium H –- oh I forget his name, some 19th cent. ?German/?Dutch scholar who was excessively fond of it in mending corruptions. I think you’ll have to insert another one after οικτιστος too: are you confusing ᾧ relative pronoun with reflexive adjective? And do Greeks ever see κηδεα? (I take it you didn’t like my αμφιβεβηκε, probably for good reason.) But a brave effort. Time to declare victory and go home?
If hexx are too hard, how about having a go at iambics, where you have more freedom, even in tragic ones with their stricter meter? Taking my cue from you:
εγωγ’ ανηρ δυστηνος ειμι δια τελους·
εν τω βιω πεπονθα δεινα προς κακοις,
ουδ’ εκπεφευγα πημονων ποτ’ ουδ’ απαξ·
ουπω ’πεληξα συμφορας εμας γοῶν.
ως ταυτα παντα συλλεγειν βραχει λογω,
ουδεις ποτ’ ην εμου γε δυστυχεστερος.
A very pedestrian pastiche but you can go on for ever in this vein, once you get into the swing of it.
χαιρειν κελευω τηνδε γην Βοιωτιδα
εν ᾗ μ’ ετικτε καξεθρεπτε προσφιλως
μητηρ επειτα τ’ εξεπαιδευεν πατηρ.
χαιρ’· υστατον γαρ σ’ εισορων προσφθεγγομαι.
υμεις τε χαιρεθ’ αἳ νεμεσθ’ ορη ταδε
νυμφαι ροαισι κἀλαταις ομηλικες
συν αις επαιζον ασμενος· και νυν εμοι
λιπειν αναγκη· τουτο πῶς ανεκτεον;
Doggerel, to be sure, but without the problems that attend epic versification.
If hexx are too hard, how about having a go at iambics, where you have more freedom, even in tragic ones with their stricter meter? Taking my cue from you:
εγωγ’ ανηρ δυστηνος ειμι δια τελους·
εν τω βιω πεπονθα δεινα προς κακοις,
ουδ’ εκπεφευγα πημονων ποτ’ ουδ’ απαξ·
ουπω ’πεληξα συμφορας εμας γοῶν.
ως ταυτα παντα συλλεγειν βραχει λογω,
ουδεις ποτ’ ην εμου γε δυστυχεστερος.
A very pedestrian pastiche but you can go on for ever in this vein, once you get into the swing of it.
χαιρειν κελευω τηνδε γην Βοιωτιδα
εν ᾗ μ’ ετικτε καξεθρεπτε προσφιλως
μητηρ επειτα τ’ εξεπαιδευεν πατηρ.
χαιρ’· υστατον γαρ σ’ εισορων προσφθεγγομαι.
υμεις τε χαιρεθ’ αἳ νεμεσθ’ ορη ταδε
νυμφαι ροαισι κἀλαταις ομηλικες
συν αις επαιζον ασμενος· και νυν εμοι
λιπειν αναγκη· τουτο πῶς ανεκτεον;
Doggerel, to be sure, but without the problems that attend epic versification.
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
A reminder of the original:
I am a man of constant sorrow
I've seen trouble all my days
I bid farewell to old Kentucky
The place where I was born and raised.
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
You forgot to add the last line:
ὤμοι, πέπληγμαι καιρίαν πληγὴν ἔσω
ὤμοι, πέπληγμαι καιρίαν πληγὴν ἔσω
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
I didn’t steal actual verses, at least not so far as I’m aware. It just came out the way it did. It’s not at all Aeschylean. And of course that verse is quite at odds with the given text, to which I thought I actually stayed pretty close (allowing for conversion to tragic idiom).
Looking through I discover a stupid non-form. I’ll let people find it for themselves. (Or are there more?)
Looking through I discover a stupid non-form. I’ll let people find it for themselves. (Or are there more?)
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
Is it καξεθρεπτε ? Would καξεθρεψε work? And then maybe εξεπαιδευσεν ?I’ll let people find it for themselves.
This is truly impressive, right down to τηνδε γην Βοιωτιδα for Kentucky. I'm in genuine awe and admiration.
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
Thanks for all the marvelous replies (and reminders not to attempt to compose Greek in the morning!).
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
βλέποντος τούτου, πόνος πόνῳ πόνον φέρει.In constant sorrow all through his days...
οὐ μανθάνω γράφειν, ἀλλὰ γράφω τοῦ μαθεῖν.
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
Qimmik wins the coconut. As you may have guessed, I wrote καξεθρεψε and then in a moment of idiocy changed the ending to match impf. ετικτε (and then accordingly used impf. in next line). And didn’t look back before pushing Send. ετικτε καξεθρεψε is perfectly good.
Glad you appreciate Boeotia, but the composition as a whole is very far from admirable. It was surprisingly fun to do, though, and I had to force myself to stop. (The abrupt ending is somewhat self-referential.) It’s a tad parodistic, obviously.
letters, we all look forward to more. Thanks for starting the thread, both fun and instructive!
Not hard to guess what play you’ve been reading, Markos. Obtuse of me no doubt but I don’t get what your βλεποντος τουτου is doing.
Glad you appreciate Boeotia, but the composition as a whole is very far from admirable. It was surprisingly fun to do, though, and I had to force myself to stop. (The abrupt ending is somewhat self-referential.) It’s a tad parodistic, obviously.
letters, we all look forward to more. Thanks for starting the thread, both fun and instructive!
Not hard to guess what play you’ve been reading, Markos. Obtuse of me no doubt but I don’t get what your βλεποντος τουτου is doing.
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
Markos wrote:βλέποντος τούτου, πόνος πόνῳ πόνον φέρει.In constant sorrow all through his days...
πάνυ γε. Σοφ. Αια. 866.mwh wrote: Not hard to guess what play you’ve been reading, Markos.
ἀντὶ τοῦ "ἐφ' ὅσον χρόνον οὗτος βλέπει φάος," τοῦτ ἐστι "ζῇ."mwh wrote:Obtuse of me no doubt but I don’t get what your βλεποντος τουτου is doing.
I suppose τοῦδε βλέποντος would have been better. No attempt to produce meter.
οὐ μανθάνω γράφειν, ἀλλὰ γράφω τοῦ μαθεῖν.
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
Thanks for explaining what you meant Markos. But you can’t expect to be understood if you use tragic idioms without meter. You could have said τούτου ζῶντος, but it would still read very oddly indeed. τοῦδε ζωντος/βλεποντος could be understood as a first-person reference, too, compare present-day politicians who refer to themselves in the 3rd person.
I strongly recommend learning to read verse as verse. You lose so very much if you approach poetry as if it were prose.
I strongly recommend learning to read verse as verse. You lose so very much if you approach poetry as if it were prose.
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
Now how about a dactylo-epitritic chorus of Boeotian elders or women to go with the iambic monologue?
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Re: O Brother Where Art Thou
Nah, I’ll leave that to you. Dactylo-epitrite would be simple enough to do (unless you require strophic responsion), but making it appropriately poetic is another matter. And I really don’t go in for composing, you know, except for attempts to restore fragmentary or corrupt texts. Which reminds me of a comment by Housman on a proposed iambic reconstruction with a breach of Porson’s Law or a spondaic 4th foot or some such blunder in some new Euripidean fragments. “Dr. Rutherford ‘would restore’ to Euripides [the line in question], which Euripides, I think, would restore to Dr. Rutherford.”