Exercises in Syntax and Idioms Study Group

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jeidsath
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Exercises in Syntax and Idioms Study Group

Post by jeidsath »

https://archive.org/details/RouseExerci ... AtticGreek

Right now, the volunteers for this study group are me, bedwere, and ariphron. We don't have the key yet (thread here). But nothing is stopping us from doing the first couple of exercises on our own, hopefully with help from some of the other forum members.

8/11/2015 -- Exercise I. Simple Sentences and Pronouns. I'll get to these Wednesday or Thursday. Let's try to get everyone's exercise submitted before going on to the next.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: Exercises in Syntax and Idioms Study Group

Post by jeidsath »

Exercise 1

1. All these men did the same things.
2. He hurt himself.
3. Can these things be true?
4. Never trust a liar.
5. He did the same as I did.
6. Part is true, part false.
7. We were asked for money.
8. The orator spoke as follows.
9. Were you not present on that day?
10. I did it myself.
11. Do not betray this city to the enemy.
12. You ought to go yourself.
13. One said one thing, one another.
14. Bid the slaves come here.
15. Let us send messengers to Athens.
16. I like the same things as you.
17. Let every man mind his own business.
18. The ship was lost, crew and all.
19. He did not give me so much pay.
20. Never say that again!

1. πᾶς οὗτοι οἱ ἄνθρωποι ταὐτὰ ἔπραξεν. -> πάντες οὗτοι οἱ ἄνθρωποι ταὐτὰ ἔπραξεν.
2. ἔβλαψε ἑαυτόν. -> ἔβλαψεν ἑαυτόν.
3. ταῦτα ἄν ἀλεθέα εἴη;
4. μήποτε πιστεύσεις ψευστήν. -> μήποτε πιστεύσεις ψευστῇ.
5. οὑτως ἔπραξα ταὐτὰ ἔπραξεν. -> οὑτως ἔπραξε ταὐτά μοι.
6. μόριον μὲν ἀλεθές, μόριον δὲ ψευδές.
7. ᾐτήθημεν χρήματα.
8. ὁ ῥήτωρ ἔλεξε τοιάδε.
9. οὐ παρῆν ἐκείνην τὴν ἡμέραν; -> οὐ παρῆσθα ἐκείνην τὴν ἡμέραν;
10. αὐτὸς αὐτὸν ἔπραξα. -> αὐτὸ αὐτὸν ἔπραξα.
11. μὴ δίδου ταύτην τὴν πόλιν τὰ πολέμια. -> μὴ δίδου ταύτην τὴν πόλιν τοῖς πολεμίοις.
12. δεῖ σέ βαίνειν.
13. ἄλλο ἄλλος λέγει.
14. κέλευε τοὺς δούλους δεῦρο ἐλθεῖν.
15. ἱῶμεν ἀγγέλους Ἀθήναζε.
16. ἀρέσκει ταὐτά σε ἀρέσκειν. -> ἀρέσκω ταὐτά σε ἀρέσκειν.
17. ἐπιμελείσθω ἕκαστος τὸ ἴδιον.
18. ὁ ναῦς ἐλύθη αὐτή τε καὶ οἱ ναῦται. -> ἡ ναῦς ἐλύθη αὐτή τε καὶ οἱ ναῦται.
19. οὐκ ἔδωκε ὅσον μισθὸν.
20. μήποτε ταῦτα αὖ λέγε.

Thank you to calvinist and bedwere for corrections.
Last edited by jeidsath on Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: Exercises in Syntax and Idioms Study Group

Post by calvinist »

1. πας ουτοι -> παντες ουτοι
2. εβλαψ' εαυτον (I expect elision here)
4. πιστευω takes the dative.
5. I'm not sure how that should be expressed in Greek, but the way you rendered it seems awkward to me.
6. Doesn't μερος work here? It's a much more common word.
8. I would expect ουτως rather than τοιαδε, but I'm not sure which is more idiomatic.
9. παρην -> παρησθα (2nd person), εκεινην... -> εκεινη or εν εκεινη (dative of time, the accusative here would have to be interpreted as an accusative of extent of time)
10. αυτον -> αυτο (neuter)

I didn't look through the rest, and note that my Greek is not as good as my Latin, or as good as many others here. On a side note, I notice that you prefer πρασσω to ποιω.

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Re: Exercises in Syntax and Idioms Study Group

Post by bedwere »

α'

α' Πάντες οὗτοι ἐποίησαν τὰ αὐτά.
β' Ἔβλαψεν ἑαυτόν.
γ' Ἆρα δύναται ταῦτα ἀληθῆ εἶναι; → Ἆρα μὴ ταῦτά ἐστιν ἀληθῆ;
δ' Μηδέποτε πιστεύσῃς ψεύστῃ.
ε' Ἐποίησε τὸ αὐτὸ ἐμοί.
ϛ' Tὸ μὲν ἀληθές, τὸ δὲ ψευδές.
ζ' ᾐτήθημεν ἀργυρίον.
η' Ὁ ῥήτωρ εἶπε τόδε. → Ὁ ῥήτωρ εἶπε τάδε
θ' Ἆρα οὐ παρῆσθα ἐκείνῃ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ;
ι' Αὐτὸς ἐποίησα.
ια' Μὴ παραδῷς τοῖς πολεμίοις ταύτην τὴν πόλιν. → Μὴ προδῷς τοῖς πολεμίοις ταύτην τὴν πόλιν
ιβ' Δεῖ σε αὐτὸν ἰέναι.
ιγ' Ὁ μὲν εἶπεν ἄλλο, ὁ δὲ ἄλλο. → Ἄλλος ἄλλο εἶπεν.
ιδ' Κέλευσον τοῦς δούλους δεῦρο ἐλθεῖν.
ιε' Πέμψωμεν Ἀθήναζε ἀγγέλους.
ιϛ' Φιλῶ τὰ αὐτὰ ὑμῖν.
ιζ' Ἕκαστος φροντιζέτω τοῦ ἑαυτοῦ. → Ἕκαστος ἐπιμελείσθω τῶν ἑαυτοῦ.
ιη' Ἡ ναῦς ἀπώλετο αὐτοῖς ἀνδράσιν.
ιθ' Οὐκ ἔδωκέ μοι τοσοῦτον μισθόν.
κ᾿ Μηδέποτε πάλιν εἴπῃς τοῦτο.

Thank you, Michael!
Last edited by bedwere on Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Exercises in Syntax and Idioms Study Group

Post by mwh »

Just small suggestions on bedwere’s.
3 Perhaps αρα μη ταυτα εστιν αληθη;
8 ταδε
11 παραδῷς better προ-
13 αλλος αλλο ειπεν
17 επιμελεισθω των εαυτου

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Re: Exercises in Syntax and Idioms Study Group

Post by Qimmik »

A suggestion: this type of "composition" exercise (turning English into Greek) is valuable for acquiring a sense of Greek usage, and how Greek expresses ideas differently from English. It's especially helpful in making you recognize how Greek words differ from their conventional English translations, indeed, making you sensitive to idiomatic Greek word usage generally. To get the full benefit of this, however, you have to look up nearly all of the Greek words you intend to use in a Greek-English dictionary that breaks down each entry into its specific usages and provides citations to specific authors. For English speakers (and perhaps speakers of other languages, too), that means LSJ (perhaps you could get away with the Intermediate L&S if you're confident about a word, but not the elementary version). You also need to take care to use only usages attested in prose authors, preferably Attic, but in some cases, koine words without Attic attestations might be ok. You don't want to use Homeric or tragic vocabulary in prose.

To take an example, δύναμαι cannot be used to translate English "can" in all circumstances: it means either 'to have the physical ability, capacity or power' or 'to be worth'.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... du%2Fnamai

"To be possible" is given as a third meaning, but with very thin citations, and I think the cite to Herodotus: "it was not possible for the Lacedaemonians to speak eloquently" (or something like that) refers to their capacity, and the cite to Plutarch, a "late" and more koine than Attic author, seems to be a variant reading ("v.l.").

Thus, without intending to offend Bedwere, δύναμαι is not the right word for "is it possible that these things are true?" mwh is almost certainly right that Greek would just have used an emphatic form of question expecting a negative response, αρα μη, rather than a literal translation of the English idiom "is it possible that".

For Latin you need to use the big Lewis & Short or better still the Oxford Latin Dictionary.

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Re: Exercises in Syntax and Idioms Study Group

Post by bedwere »

My ego is not so sensitive, Qimmik! On the contrary, thank you for your help. Actually the lexicon at the end of the book may be the easiest option for the student.

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Re: Exercises in Syntax and Idioms Study Group

Post by C. S. Bartholomew »

a general comment. The word order of the translations generally follows the English:
19. He did not give me so much pay.
ιθ' Οὐκ ἔδωκέ μοι τοσοῦτον μισθόν.
Might be worthwhile to look for a similar statment in a greek text and see what word order looks like or just change the word order.
13. One said one thing, one another.
ιγ' Ὁ μὲν εἶπεν ἄλλο, ὁ δὲ ἄλλο. → Ἄλλος ἄλλο εἶπεν.
The riot at Ephesus

Acts 19:32 ἄλλοι μὲν οὖν ἄλλο τι ἔκραζον· ἦν γὰρ ἡ ἐκκλησία συγκεχυμένη καὶ οἱ πλείους οὐκ ᾔδεισαν τίνος ἕνεκα συνεληλύθεισαν.
Last edited by C. S. Bartholomew on Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
C. Stirling Bartholomew

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Re: Exercises in Syntax and Idioms Study Group

Post by Qimmik »

"the lexicon at the end of the book may be the easiest option for the student."

The vocabulary at the end of the book is an English-Greek vocabulary. Once you've found a Greek word there, my point is that you should then look it up in LSJ to make sure you're using it correctly. In LSJ you'll be able to see the full range of usages of a particular word, and you'll be able to see which authors use it and how each of them uses it.

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Re: Exercises in Syntax and Idioms Study Group

Post by calvinist »

I think that I use these composition books differently than others. I actually go straight to the key and read through the sentences while looking at the English to compare/contrast idiom. Basically, I use them in a way similar to how the Assimil language courses are set up with the target language presented on one page and an equivalent in the native language on the other page for comparison. I've only recently started doing the reverse, i.e. taking the English sentences and converting them into the target language, and this only with Latin. My Greek is not good enough yet to benefit from English -> Greek because I'd spend too much time thinking about how to construct the sentences. I think composition is most beneficial after a long period of passive exposure to the language, which is where I'm still at with Greek.

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Re: Exercises in Syntax and Idioms Study Group

Post by mwh »

On the word-order issue raised by Stirling, he is of course right to warn that Greek word order doesn't necessarily coincide with English, but looking through bedwere’s admirable submission I don’t see anything particularly abnormal, and he does change the English word order where appropriate (e.g. 10 Αὐτὸς ἐποίησα for “I did it myself”).
19 Οὐκ ἔδωκέ μοι τοσοῦτον μισθόν is the most neutral and ordinary word order of the many possible, despite its coincidence with English. I’d have written ἐμοί myself (“he didn’t give me so much,” cf.5), but it all depends how we read the English, and larger context is absent.

Word order does affect the semantics, subtly or not so subtly (that's one of the great things about Greek!), but with isolated sentences such as these, devoid of context, the best thing to aim for is an ordinary sort of word order, one that doesn't read oddly. There won't always be an optimal one.

calvinist, When I urged doing the exercises before consulting the key I wasn’t thinking of a case like yours. Just setting the English and Greek equivalents side by side strikes me as a fine way to observe how the two languages differ (as well as how they don’t).

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Re: Exercises in Syntax and Idioms Study Group

Post by jeidsath »

I discovered C.W.E.’s submission for #18 in Thrasymachus: ἡ ναῦς καταδύει αὐτοῖς τοῖς ναύταις.

The Kickstarter was successful, and I've ordered the key. I hope to post it whenever the library sends me the scans. Also, my copy of the Exercise book came from Lulu today, so here's the second lesson.

1. Which of all the Spartan kings do you honour most? (Answer) Leonidas.
2. Which of the Spartan kings is in command of the army? (Answer) Archidamus.
3. My father and brother were killed in the same war.
4. Philip was the first to arrive; he came by himself.
5. Where do you come from? where are you going?
6. Of the generals, some were there in person, others were not.
7. On that day 40,000 men were killed.
8. Can you not speak the truth?
9. In this battle neither side was victorious.
10. Are we to speak or keep silence? (delib.)
11. He must leave home and go elsewhere?
12. Imitate brave men, not cowards.
13. The man continually contradicts himself.
14. The man found the same shilling.
15. Whose book have you there? My own.
16. The ship sank in the middle of the river.

1. τίνα πλεῖστον τιμᾷς πάντων Σπάρτων βασιλέων; Λεωνίδαν.
2. τῶν Σπάρτων βασιλέων τίς ἡγεῖται τῷ στρατῷ; Ἀρχίδαμος.
3. ὁ πατήρ μου καὶ ὁ ἀδελφός μου τέθνηκεσαν ἐν τῷ αὐτῷ πολεμίῳ.
4. Φίλιππος ἥκει πρῶτος καὶ μόνος.
5. πόθεν ἦλθες; ποῖ;
6. οἱ μὲν τῶν στρατηγῶν παρῆσαν οἱ δὲ οὔ.
7. ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ταύτῃ τετρακισχίλιοι ἀπέθανον.
8. οὐ δύνασαι τὸ ἀληθές λέγειν;
9. ἐν ταύτῃ τῇ μάχῃ οὐδέτεροι ἐνίκησαν.
10. λέγειν ποιῶμεν ἤ σιγεῖν;
11. ἆρα δεῖ ἀποδημεῖν καὶ εἶσι;
12. μιμοῦ ἀγαθοὺς ἀνθρώπους καὶ μὴ δειλούς.
13. πάντοτε ὁ ανὴρ ἐναντία λέγει ἑαυτῷ.
14. ὁ ανὴρ ἔτυχε τὸν ἀυτὸν ὀβολόν.
15. τίνος βιβλίον ἔχεις; ἐμόν.
16. ἡ ναῦς κατέδυεν ἐν μέσῳ τῷ ποταμῷ.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: Exercises in Syntax and Idioms Study Group

Post by bedwere »

α᾽ Τίνα πασῶν τῶν Λακεδαιμονίων βασιλέων μάλιστα τιμᾷς ; Λεωνίδαν.
β᾽ Τίς τῶν Λακεδαιμονίων βασιλέων ἡγεῖται τὴν στρατιάν; Ἀρχίδαμος.
γ' Ὁ πατήρ τε καὶ ὁ ἀδελφός μου ἀπέθανον ἐν τῷ αὐτῷ πολέμῳ.
δ’ Ὁ Φίλιππος πρῶτος ἀφίκετο. Ἦλθε γὰρ καθ’ ἑαυτόν.
ε' Πόθεν ἀφικνεῖσθε; καὶ ποῖ ἔρχεσθε;
ϛ' Τῶν σταρτηγῶν οἱ μὲν αὐτοὶ παρῆσαν, οἱ δ'οὔ.
ζ' Ἐκείνῃ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τετράκις μύριοι ἀπέθανον.
η' Ἆρα οὐχ οἷός τ' εἶ ἀληθεύειν;
θ' Ἐν ταύτῃ τῇ μάχῃ οὐδέτεροι ἐνίκησαν.
ι' Εἴπωμεν ἢ σιγῶμεν;
ια' Δεῖ αὐτὸν ἀποδημεῖν τε καὶ ἄλλοθι ἰέναι.
ιβ' Μιμεῖσθε τοῖς ἀγαθοῖς, μηδὲ τοῖς κακοῖς.
ιγ' Συνεχῶς ἀντιλέγει ἑαυτῷ ὁ ἀνήρ.
ιδ' Ὁ ἀνὴρ εὔρε τὴν αὐτὴν δραχμήν.
ιε' Τίνος βιβλίον ἐκεῖ ἔχεις; Τὸ ἐμαυτοῦ.
ιϛ' Ἡ ναῦς κατέδυ ἐν μέσῳ τῷ ποταμῷ.

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