Why do we use the genitive singular as the stem identifier?

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derfner
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Why do we use the genitive singular as the stem identifier?

Post by derfner »

It seems to me that there's a very clear problem with using the genitive singular as the way to learn/identify the stem of Greek nouns.

Take ναύτης, for example, the first-declension word that means "sailor." The entry in Hansen & Quinn gives ναύτης, ναύτου. From this you would expect that the stem is ναύ-, and you'd use that to get all the rest of the forms, including e.g. the nominative plural ναύται—which is wrong. The nominative plural is ναῦται. But there's no way to know or learn that from ναύτης, ναύτου.

Or take αἴξ, the third-declension word that means "goat." From αἴξ, αἰγός, you'd assume that the stem is probably αἴγ-, so when it came to the nominative plural you'd give αἴγες, which would be wrong; it's αἶγες.

So why don't we learn ναύτης, ναῦται and αἴξ, αἶγες instead? Since second declension words already have a short ultima, learning ἄνθρωπος, ἄνθρωποι doesn't deprive us of any knowledge that learning ἄνθρωπος, ἀνθρώπου gives us.

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jeidsath
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Re: Why do we use the genitive singular as the stem identifi

Post by jeidsath »

In Greek, an accented penultimate on a long vowel followed by a short vowel is circumflex.

So αἴγες and ναύται are impossible, and the correct forms are αἶγες and ναῦται.

Note that -αι or -oi at the end of a word is generally short in Attic Greek. The optative case in verbs is an exception.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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derfner
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Re: Why do we use the genitive singular as the stem identifi

Post by derfner »

OMG THAT'S RIGHT I'M A MORON.

Thank you.

Oy.

anphph
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Re: Why do we use the genitive singular as the stem identifi

Post by anphph »

Anyway, there is something to be said about why we use the genitive singular to classify nouns. I truly have no better solution, but we must remember that for all that matters it is something new. At least until the early 15th century the standard byzantine way of presenting the cases was by the nominative with apposite gender, which led to a ridiculous number of declensions (up to +60) — so οἶκος would be 1, ναύτης (m) would be 2, οἰκία would be 3, μάχη would be 4, and so on. In his Grammar book Questions (Ἐρωτήματα), the byzantine diplomat & teacher Emanuel Chrysoloras, faced with the challenge of teaching Attic Greek to Italian students, reduced that number to a more manageable 13~ declensions, but he was still far from the 3 that we tend to work with.

In a way we can see that by being accurate in what concerns historical linguistics the current way may seem artificial to first-time learners: we say declensions follow the genitive, but τέλος,ους and αἶξ,αἰγός both are placed in the third in spite of the genitive showing (apparently) different endings. Still, until someone comes up with something better it's by far the best system.
Last edited by anphph on Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

mwh
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Re: Why do we use the genitive singular as the stem identifi

Post by mwh »

Very interesting. αἰγός oxytone btw.

But how about the original example, ναύτης, -ου? 1st decl. or 2nd? The now accepted classification system involves a fair amount of fudge.
(-ου “borrowed” from 2nd declension. I wish linguists wouldn’t talk of things as being borrowed, as if they weren’t taken for keeps.)

As for 3rd decl., it shouldn’t take much historical linguistics to recognize the consistent –ος of the genitive. Admittedly it may be confusing for beginners, but it’s very instructive for the behavior of the language.

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jeidsath
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Re: Why do we use the genitive singular as the stem identifi

Post by jeidsath »

The modern system of declension is based on breaking nouns into stem + ending, and classifying nouns by the three main groups of endings.

The apparent complexity comes from the interaction between stem and ending, but this mostly follows regular rules. So the big three classification scheme makes a lot of sense.

In your head, however, classifying nouns into 60 groups is something that you wind up doing eventually. When I'm reading and encounter an -ις noun, I don't think think "third declension," I think "like πόλις."
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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anphph
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Re: Why do we use the genitive singular as the stem identifi

Post by anphph »

jeidsath wrote:In your head, however, classifying nouns into 60 groups is something that you wind up doing eventually. When I'm reading and encounter an -ις noun, I don't think think "third declension," I think "like πόλις."
You are completely right. I had never thought of it that way. Hell to learn (and so unadvisable as a learning method), but all in all the end-goal.

Darn those Byzantines, always getting the last laugh!

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