Oikonomikos 7. 6

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daivid
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Oikonomikos 7. 6

Post by daivid »

ἐπεὶ τά γε ἀμφὶ γαστέρα, ἔφη, πάνυ καλῶς, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἦλθε πεπαιδευμένη: ὅπερ μέγιστον ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ παίδευμα εἶναι καὶ ἀνδρὶ καὶ γυναικί.

I have looked at three translations of this line. The differences are so great that I would never have guessed that they all attempts at a translation of the same Greek.

From Perseus:
For in control of her appetite, Socrates, she had been excellently trained; and this sort of training is, in my opinion, the most important to man and woman alike.’
From the translation of H. G. Dakyns (gutenberg)
For (he added), as regards control of appetite and self-indulgence, [9] she had received the soundest education, and that I take to be the most important matter in the bringing-up of man or woman.
and finally this:
'She came to me, Socrates, quite knowledgeable about food, a matter that seems to me important for both men and women to know about'.
Women's life in Greece and Rome.
http://www.stoa.org/diotima/anthology/w ... e267.shtml

If I had only seen the last I would be quite happy with it as seems to fit the Greek much better but be some reason that the other two chose such a different interpretation.
Last edited by daivid on Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Qimmik
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Re: Oikonomikos 7. 6

Post by Qimmik »

It depends on what you think τά ἀμφὶ γαστέρα, "things about stomach," means. About the stomach, about food generally, or about proper eating habits? There's no context to elucidate this. Cooking? But would that be something both men and women should know about?

C. S. Bartholomew
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Re: Oikonomikos 7. 6

Post by C. S. Bartholomew »

David,

The first thing that jumps out is the semantic domain of γαστέρα doesn't lend much support to the third translation. γαστέρα is a body part that is used in this case as a metaphor for the desire to eat. γαστέρα is also used of the womb ταῖς ἐν γαστρὶ ἐχούσαις for women who are pregnant. It is used of food in Homer and once in Aristophanes.

ἐπεὶ τά γε ἀμφὶ γαστέρα, ἔφη, πάνυ καλῶς, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἦλθε πεπαιδευμένη· ὅπερ μέγιστον ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ παίδευμα εἶναι καὶ ἀνδρὶ καὶ γυναικί.

For in control of her appetite, Socrates, she had been excellently trained; and I regard that sort of training to be the most important for man and woman alike.

LCL 2013
Xenophon Volume IV
Loeb Classical Library 168
Memorabilia. Oeconomicus. Symposium. Apology ,
Translated by E. C. Marchant O. J. Todd
Revised by Jeffrey Henderson
C. Stirling Bartholomew

daivid
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Re: Oikonomikos 7. 6

Post by daivid »

Both the first two have to add in control to make their more philosophical interpretation work and I can't see anything in the Greek to support that. Being knowledgeable about food I take as having good taste or knowledge of what kinds of food are healthy. It may be that a slave does the actual cooking in Ischomachus' household but, to supervise that slave, the wife would have know good food when she saw/tasted it
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C. S. Bartholomew
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Re: Oikonomikos 7. 6

Post by C. S. Bartholomew »

daivid wrote:Both the first two have to add in control to make their more philosophical interpretation work and I can't see anything in the Greek to support that. Being knowledgeable about food I take as having good taste or knowledge of what kinds of food are healthy. It may be that a slave does the actual cooking in Ischomachus' household but, to supervise that slave, the wife would have know good food when she saw/tasted it
Yes, there is a lot of leeway for misunderstanding in this passage. For food preparation we might look for word groups which include βρῶμα, φρῠγω, ὀπτάω, μάγοιρος. The lack of a semantic domain lexicon for classical texts leaves one at the mercy of Woodhouse and LSJ. One thing that tilts the scales in the direction of LCL version is the inclusion of both men and women. No gender role stereotyping. Why would it be important for a man to learn to cook? The man would have a slave cook his meals. Right?

BTW,
On the Homeric use of γαστηρ LSJ doesn't list it as a metaphor.
LSJ:
paunch stuffed with mincemeat, sausage, haggis, Od.18.44, 118, 20.25, Ar.Nu.409.
In Cunliffe It is food something like sausage where some body substances are stuffed in pocket made from intestine. This isn't really a metaphor. γαστηρ simply means a hollow cavity. So I don't it see this as a support for a metaphorical use for food.

ON THE OTHER HAND ,

Looking at the context it appears that food preparation makes more sense, it fits into the subject under discussion which is the wife being competent to perform her household duties. This has to be judged in light of comments by Ischomachus who stresses that his wife came to him as a 14 year old without skills.
C. Stirling Bartholomew

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Re: Oikonomikos 7. 6

Post by jeidsath »

In the context of weaving like this, I'd think that "about the belly" first means to clothe oneself (or others). There's a related usage in Pausanias Perieg. Graeciae descriptio Book 10 chapter 26 section 5 line 5:

http://www.loebclassics.com/view/pausan ... 97.523.xml

However, in the second clause, ὅπερ μέγιστον ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ παίδευμα εἶναι καὶ ἀνδρὶ καὶ γυναικί, I think the meaning has morphed into "concerns of the belly" -- ie., appetite. So there is some word-play going in.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Oikonomikos 7. 6

Post by jeidsath »

Reading it over this morning, I don't like my above suggestion. The ἐπεὶ τά γὲ... signals a contrast, and I'd think that an unspoken "stuff that wraps" is probably impossible.

I notice that H.G. Dakyns as a footnote that links to this discussion of cooks in Mahaffy (his edition is off by 5 pages):

https://archive.org/stream/sociallifein ... h#page/281

It doesn't seem to be the sort of activity that would be beneath the concerns of men -- who at the very least have supervise the people they hire for a dinner-party (similar to the supervision of servants doing wool spinning above in the passage). Nor, I imagine, would food preparation by outside the concerns of a wife in day-to-day meals.

The LSJ gives a number of examples of Xenophon talking about being "master of one's belly" or slave to it, etc. So I imagine that being well-educated "concerning the belly" could encompass both food preparation and moderation in consumption. In fact, that might be the whole region for the vagueness of the expression -- it's meant to cover a lot.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: Oikonomikos 7. 6

Post by daivid »

I did a search for the usage of γαστέρα using Perseus and indeed in most places it is being used in the literal sense of belly. Hence it is perhaps not surprising that in a case like this it is being used metaphorically that it should be ambiguous to us. I guess that it is to be aware of ambiguities like this is one of the reasons for learning how to read the original rather than rely on translations.

Thanks for all the replies.
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Re: Oikonomikos 7. 6

Post by Helikwps »

My vocab flashcards list first the paunch of the belly, second the stomach itself and third, the womb? (!)

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