Cupid and the Bee -- Translation Check

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jeidsath
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Cupid and the Bee -- Translation Check

Post by jeidsath »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEALu6VeEN8

I read the version from Rouse's Greek Reader. Please check my translation! Turn closed captioning on to see it.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: Cupid and the Bee -- Translation Check

Post by Scribo »

Not much to say, it was pretty good. Nicely put together by the way. I'd say:

Maybe take τρώγω literally as bite? Conveyed how they saw it.

"Having been struck upon the hands...." just to preserve the relationship between part and verb. I don't think it matters.

πτερωτός = winged. For flying you make a participle from πἐτεσθαι

"who is called a bee say the farmers" should be "whom the farmers call a bee".

I'm surprised to see it labeled as being Anacreon's even in an old reader, it properly belongs to a considerably later collection tradition labels the Anacreonta. You might be interested in the oldest version of this story we have:
Theokritos 19 wrote:Κηριοκλέπτης

τὸν κλέπταν πότ᾽ ῎Ερωτα κακὰ κέντασε μέλισσα
κηρίον ἐκ σίμβλων συλεύμενον, ἄκρα δὲ χειρῶν
δάκτυλα πάνθ᾽ ὑπένυξεν. ὁ δ᾽ ἄλγεε καὶ χέρ᾽ ἐφύση
καὶ τὰν γᾶν ἐπάταξε καὶ ἅλατο, τᾷ δ᾽ ᾿Αφροδίτᾳ
5δεῖξεν τὰν ὀδύναν καὶ μέμφετο, ὅττί γε τυτθὸν
θηρίον ἐστὶ μέλισσα καὶ ἁλίκα τραύματα ποιεῖ.
χἁ μάτηρ γελάσασα: τί δ᾽; οὐκ ἴσος ἐσσὶ μελίσσαις;
ὡς τυτθὸς μὲν ἔφυς, τὰ δὲ τραύματα χἁλίκα ποιεῖς.
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Re: Cupid and the Bee -- Translation Check

Post by Pros »

CUPID AND THE BEE

Ἔρως ποτ᾽ ἐν ῥόδοισιν
κοιμωμένην μέλιτταν
οὐκ εἶδεν, ἀλλ᾽ ἐτρώθη
τὸν δάκτυλον· παταχθεὶς
τὰς χεῖρας ὠλόλυξεν·
δραμὼν δὲ καὶ πετασθεὶς
πρὸς τὴν καλὴν Κυθήραν ----
"ὄλωλα, μῆτερ," εἶπεν
"ὄλωλα κἀποθνῄσκω·
ὄφις μ᾽ ἔτυψε μικρὸς
πτερωτός, ὃν καλοῦσιν
μέλιτταν οἱ γεωργοί."
ἡ δ᾽ εἶπεν· "εἰ τὸ κέντρον
πονεῖ τὸ τῆς μελίττης,
πόσον, δοκεῖς, πονοῦσιν,
Ἔρως, ὅσους σὺ βάλλεις;"

I took a stab at it as a challenge. Corrections are welcome.

Cupid once did not see a bee sleeping among the roses,
therefore he was stung on his finger.
Since he was stung on his hands, he cried out with a loud voice.
Then he swiftly flew to the lovely Aphrodite ---
"I am ruined, Mother," he cried,
"I am ruined and I am dying.
A small winged serpent stung me,
whom the gardeners call a bee."
But she said, "If the stinger of the bee distresses you,
how much, do you think, they distress, O Cupid, as those you shoot?"

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Re: Cupid and the Bee -- Translation Check

Post by Qimmik »

Scribo, [Theocritus] 19 can't possibly be genuine Theocritus, can it? According to Gow, Wilamowitz thought it was about the same date as the Ps.-Anacreon poem, i.e., "late".

What a cruel irony that these "poems" have survived when so much of Sappho has been lost.

"ὄλωλα, μῆτερ," εἶπεν
"ὄλωλα κἀποθνῄσκω·"

ὄλωλα here probably is closer to "I've been killed", rather than "ruined."

"I've been killed and I'm dying."

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Re: Cupid and the Bee -- Translation Check

Post by Scribo »

Qimmik wrote:Scribo, [Theocritus] 19 can't possibly be genuine Theocritus, can it? According to Gow, Wilamowitz thought it was about the same date as the Ps.-Anacreon poem, i.e., "late".

What a cruel irony that these "poems" have survived when so much of Sappho has been lost.

"ὄλωλα, μῆτερ," εἶπεν
"ὄλωλα κἀποθνῄσκω·"

ὄλωλα here probably is closer to "I've been killed", rather than "ruined."

"I've been killed and I'm dying."
Hm, no idea? I'm fairly inexperienced with Theo outside where I've been forced to read him for Virgil and my own work on 17. I don't think it too divergent (certainly not the point where I'd put it very late: if it is so late the poet here is certainly more skilled than the other). I don't think I could untangle Wilamowitz' notes actually when I read it. I'll have to leave it to wiser heads than mine I'm afraid. :lol:
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Re: Cupid and the Bee -- Translation Check

Post by jeidsath »

Scribo wrote:Maybe take τρώγω literally as bite? Conveyed how they saw it.
I totally agree. I've updated to "but was bit upon the finger."
Scribo wrote:"Having been struck upon the hands...." just to preserve the relationship between part and verb. I don't think it matters.
To be honest, I can't discern any temporal distinction between the two in English, so I've left my version as more direct.
Scribo wrote:πτερωτός = winged. For flying you make a participle from πἐτεσθαι
You and I read too many old books -- "winged" is literary word, originally KJV Biblish, that has fallen off in popularity during this century. But I've made the change. I like KJV Biblish.
Scribo wrote:"who is called a bee say the farmers" should be "whom the farmers call a bee".
Yes, I was grasping for some way to align the subtitles with the spoken Greek. I've monkeyed with it a bit more, but I haven't found a perfect way to express it without the extra words.
Scribo wrote:I'm surprised to see it labeled as being Anacreon's even in an old reader, it properly belongs to a considerably later collection tradition labels the Anacreonta. You might be interested in the oldest version of this story we have:
Theokritos 19 wrote:Κηριοκλέπτης

τὸν κλέπταν πότ᾽ ῎Ερωτα κακὰ κέντασε μέλισσα
κηρίον ἐκ σίμβλων συλεύμενον, ἄκρα δὲ χειρῶν
δάκτυλα πάνθ᾽ ὑπένυξεν. ὁ δ᾽ ἄλγεε καὶ χέρ᾽ ἐφύση
καὶ τὰν γᾶν ἐπάταξε καὶ ἅλατο, τᾷ δ᾽ ᾿Αφροδίτᾳ
5δεῖξεν τὰν ὀδύναν καὶ μέμφετο, ὅττί γε τυτθὸν
θηρίον ἐστὶ μέλισσα καὶ ἁλίκα τραύματα ποιεῖ.
χἁ μάτηρ γελάσασα: τί δ᾽; οὐκ ἴσος ἐσσὶ μελίσσαις;
ὡς τυτθὸς μὲν ἔφυς, τὰ δὲ τραύματα χἁλίκα ποιεῖς.
That's very interesting. One seems to be a direct reworking of the other.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: Cupid and the Bee -- Translation Check

Post by Qimmik »

One seems to be a direct reworking of the other.
I don't see many similarities between these except a silly commonplace idea. There were probably numerous other scraps of doggerel based on this idea floating around.

A nasty bee once stung Eros the thief when he was stealing honeycomb from the hives; she stung all his fingertips. He was in pain and he blew on his hand, and he stamped on the ground and jumped up and down; he showed the source of his pain to Aphrodite and complained that a bee is just a little creature, yet she makes such big wounds. And his mother laughed: "What? Aren't you just like bees? How little you are, yet you make wounds, and what big ones, too!"

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Re: Cupid and the Bee -- Translation Check

Post by Paul Derouda »

Qimmik wrote:
One seems to be a direct reworking of the other.
I don't see many similarities between these except a silly commonplace idea. There were probably numerous other scraps of doggerel based on this idea floating around.
You're not a big fan of this funny little thing, are you? :)

Anyway, isn't it striking, for example, that the verb πατάσσω is used in both but apparently with a different sense? I've no idea if one is a direct reworking of the other or not, but surely they are related?

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Re: Cupid and the Bee -- Translation Check

Post by jeidsath »

The differences between the two are only a surface transformation. First, I’ll remove the extra line breaks from the first:

Ἔρως ποτ᾽ ἐν ῥόδοισιν κοιμωμένην μέλιτταν
οὐκ εἶδεν, ἀλλ᾽ ἐτρώθη τὸν δάκτυλον· παταχθεὶς
τὰς χεῖρας ὠλόλυξεν·δραμὼν δὲ καὶ πετασθεὶς
πρὸς τὴν καλὴν Κυθήραν ---- "ὄλωλα, μῆτερ," εἶπεν
"ὄλωλα κἀποθνῄσκω· ὄφις μ᾽ ἔτυψε μικρὸς
πτερωτός, ὃν καλοῦσιν μέλιτταν οἱ γεωργοί."
ἡ δ᾽ εἶπεν· "εἰ τὸ κέντρον πονεῖ τὸ τῆς μελίττης,
πόσον, δοκεῖς, πονοῦσιν, Ἔρως, ὅσους σὺ βάλλεις;"

τὸν κλέπταν πότ᾽ ῎Ερωτα κακὰ κέντασε μέλισσα
κηρίον ἐκ σίμβλων συλεύμενον, ἄκρα δὲ χειρῶν
δάκτυλα πάνθ᾽ ὑπένυξεν. ὁ δ᾽ ἄλγεε καὶ χέρ᾽ ἐφύση
καὶ τὰν γᾶν ἐπάταξε καὶ ἅλατο, τᾷ δ᾽ ᾿Αφροδίτᾳ
5δεῖξεν τὰν ὀδύναν καὶ μέμφετο, ὅττί γε τυτθὸν
θηρίον ἐστὶ μέλισσα καὶ ἁλίκα τραύματα ποιεῖ.
χἁ μάτηρ γελάσασα: τί δ᾽; οὐκ ἴσος ἐσσὶ μελίσσαις;
ὡς τυτθὸς μὲν ἔφυς, τὰ δὲ τραύματα χἁλίκα ποιεῖς.

Eros was once (among the roses / stealing honeycomb). He was stung. He makes a ruckus about the pain. He complains to Aphrodite. He describes the bee to her. The Mother responds with the joke.

I am used to seeing a lot more variation than this among different versions of Aesop’s fables (or Grimm’s). These two are very close.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: Cupid and the Bee -- Translation Check

Post by Pros »

Scribo wrote:I'm surprised to see it labeled as being Anacreon's even in an old reader, it properly belongs to a considerably later collection tradition labels the Anacreonta. You might be interested in the oldest version of this story we have:
Theokritos 19 wrote:Κηριοκλέπτης

τὸν κλέπταν πότ᾽ ῎Ερωτα κακὰ κέντασε μέλισσα
κηρίον ἐκ σίμβλων συλεύμενον, ἄκρα δὲ χειρῶν
δάκτυλα πάνθ᾽ ὑπένυξεν. ὁ δ᾽ ἄλγεε καὶ χέρ᾽ ἐφύση
καὶ τὰν γᾶν ἐπάταξε καὶ ἅλατο, τᾷ δ᾽ ᾿Αφροδίτᾳ
5δεῖξεν τὰν ὀδύναν καὶ μέμφετο, ὅττί γε τυτθὸν
θηρίον ἐστὶ μέλισσα καὶ ἁλίκα τραύματα ποιεῖ.
χἁ μάτηρ γελάσασα: τί δ᾽; οὐκ ἴσος ἐσσὶ μελίσσαις;
ὡς τυτθὸς μὲν ἔφυς, τὰ δὲ τραύματα χἁλίκα ποιεῖς.
I found an interesting short article that contains both versions of Theokritos and Anacreon as well as a very good translation of the latter. https://ejournals.library.ualberta.ca/i ... 10892/8395

As an aside, why did Rouse make this piece about the sting of love the first piece in his reader? Has the editor been stung with a broken heart?

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Re: Cupid and the Bee -- Translation Check

Post by Qimmik »

There's very little in common between these two: Eros gets stung by a bee; tells his mother the bee is small but makes a big wound; his mother says, so do you. There's no overlap in the language except ερωσ, μελιττα/μελισσα, χειρ and function words. Even the mother is identified by different terms, and the punch line is framed differently. This is just a silly joke that circulated in antiquity and that two different people happened to put in verse, most likely independently. It doesn't rise to the level of a Grimm fairy tale or a fable of Aesop.

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Re: Cupid and the Bee -- Translation Check

Post by Paul Derouda »

I suppose you're right, Qimmik. But don't you think the word πατάσσω also is an overlap? The words are used with a different meaning, but they are in the same position of the story. I don't suppose that this means that one poem is a direct reworking of the other, but that whoever wrote the later one knew something like the earlier one and that's what suggested the word πατάσσω to him. But yes, the poem must have circulated in many different versions. My point is that rather than showing that one version is a conscious reworking of the other, it shows that the earlier version(s) the author knew more or less unconsciously influenced the new one he was writing. I think it shows how our mind has a funny way of twisting things...

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Re: Cupid and the Bee -- Translation Check

Post by jeidsath »

“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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