Let's Read: AJAX

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jeidsath
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Let's Read: AJAX

Post by jeidsath »

Per the Halloween thread I wanted to start a Let's Read thread that focuses on examples rather than grammar discussion. For vocabulary, rather than (just) giving an English gloss, I'd like to give a Greek example usage. For grammar or syntax, rather than (just) providing a rule or translation, I want to try to provide a parallel construction.

But mainly I wanted to read Sophocles.

Jebb's Commentary + Translation

Scholia (nice font)
Scholia (easy font)

Reading of the first 13 lines

Meter (of the beginning):

xx LL ss LL xx LL ss LL xx LL ss LL (iambic trimeter)

xx = anceps (short or long syllable)
LL = long syllable (long vowel / short vowel followed by double consonant)
ss = short syllable (short vowel)

The last syllable of a line counts as long (even when it is short).

For whatever reason, the rhythm of the iambic trimeter seems much easier for me to feel / hear than other Greek meters. I don't understand why that would be so, since it has so many anceps positions.

Lines 1-13

Ἀθηνᾶ
ἀεὶ μέν, ὦ παῖ Λαρτίου, δέδορκά σε
πεῖράν τιν’ ἐχθρῶν ἁρπάσαι θηρώμενον·
καὶ νῦν ἐπὶ σκηναῖς σε ναυτικαῖς ὁρῶ
Αἴαντος, ἔνθα τάξιν ἐσχάτην ἔχει,
πάλαι κυνηγετοῦντα καὶ μετρούμενον
ἴχνη τὰ κείνου νεοχάραχθ’, ὅπως ἴδῃς
εἴτ’ ἔνδον εἴτ’ οὐκ ἔνδον. εὖ δέ σ’ ἐκφέρει
κυνὸς Λακαίνης ὥς τις εὔρινος βάσις.
ἔνδον γὰρ ἁνὴρ ἄρτι τυγχάνει, κάρα
στάζων ἱδρῶτι καὶ χέρας ξιφοκτόνους.
καί σ’ οὐδὲν εἴσω τῆσδε παπταίνειν πύλης
ἔτ’ ἔργον ἐστίν, ἐννέπειν δ’ ὅτου χάριν
σπουδὴν ἔθου τήνδ’, ὡς παρ’ εἰδυίας μάθῃς.

1) εὖ δέ σ’ ἐκφέρει κυνὸς Λακαίνης ὥς τις εὔρινος βάσις.

The subject of ἐκφέρει is ἴχνη, I assume. And in prose, would it be something like this?

τὰ ἴχνη ἐκφέρει σε ὤς εὔρινός τις βάσις ἐκφέρει κύνα Λακαίνην

2) "ὅτου χάριν σπουδὴν ἔθου τήνδ’"

That seems like a strange way to use χάριν. Jebb translates "eager quest" and it makes sense, but I would be interested in parallel usages.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by Hylander »

The subject of ἐκφέρει ("bring you to your goal") is βάσις ("your course", "your steps"). The scholiast takes βάσις as that of Aias, not Odysseus.

See LSJ ἐκφέρω A IV:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... e)kfe%2Frw

LSJ βάσις:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 3Dba%2Fsis

As Jebb notes, there's a dispute, which goes back to antiquity and is still raging, as to whether εὔρινος is nominative, modifying βάσις (with enallage, transferred epithet) or genitive from εὔρις, an adjective that also occurs in Aeschylus, modifying κυνὸς.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... Deu)%2Fris

Something like: "Your course, like one of a keen-scented Laconian dog, brings you well to your goal."

ὅτου χάριν -- χάριν is used here like a preposition (or, more accurately, a postposition): "for the sake of what?", i.e., "why?". This is a common usage of accusative χάριν in prose as well as verse. See LSJ χάρις VI 1 b:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 3Dxa%2Fris

Jebb's "eager quest" is σπουδὴν.

Hope this helps!
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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by jeidsath »

Thank you. It does help!

I'm not sure about this yet: εὖ δέ σ’ ἐκφέρει κυνὸς Λακαίνης ὥς τις εὔρινος βάσις.

It's just that with with these images I wouldn't have expected a line there about about feet bringing you to your goal. I would expect a comparison between Odysseus and a dog following a scent.

I notice that one of the scholia agrees and one not:

ΕΥ ΔΕ Σ’ ΕΚΦΕΡΕΙ: ἔξω τῆς σκηνῆς τοῦ Αἴαντος ἐπάγεταί σε ἡ βάδισις τοῦ Αἴαντος, δίκην κυνὸς εὐοσφρήτου, ἀπὸ τοῦ ἴχνους ζητοῦντα, εἰ ἔνδον γέγονεν ὁ Αἴας

ΕΥ ΔΕ Σ’ ΕΚΦΕΡΕΙ: καλῶς δὲ εἰς τέλος ἐξάγει σε, ἡ βάσις ἀπὸ κοινοῦ, ἥγουν πορεία, ὥς τις εὐόσφρητος βάσις Λακαίνης κυνός.

Your explanation of χάριν makes sense. I was confused and thought that σπουδὴν was an adjective modifying it. Here is the same usage of ὅτου χάριν in Plotinus:

http://www.loebclassics.com/view/plotin ... 41.281.xml

Ἀλλὰ γὰρ, ὅπως καὶ ταῦτα εἴρηται αὐτοῖς καὶ ὅτου χάριν, δῆλον
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by Hylander »

The βάσις must refer to that of Odysseus, pace the scholiast. O's βάσις -- the way he walks or goes -- is like a βάσις of a well-nosed Laconian bitch. Or his well-nosed βάσις is like a βάσις of a Laconian bitch. The scholiast's apparent attribution of the word βάσις to Aias is difficult to make sense of here. It's O's going/walking/course/steps that is/are like that of a Laconian dog following a scent (as in Jebb's translation), not Aias' footprints. The comparison is O's βάσις with the βάσις basis of a hunting dog tracking game.
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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by jeidsath »

Well, βάσις is also footprint. And I could see εὔρινος meaning easy-to-the-nose (ie., fragrant, εὔοσμος). The same way as εὐόφθαλμος can mean either beautiful eyes or -- as we might say -- easy on the eyes. Jebb mentions that εὔρινος as equivalent to εὔρις doesn't seem to occur until later Greek.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by Hylander »

Aias' fragrant footsteps seems a bit far-fetched. There's no reason to apply the epithet to A.'s footprints. ευρινοσ seems more natural and apt to refer to a dog's capacity to track by scent--O.'s keen tracking ability is compared to a dog's nose. Nominative ευρινοσ can be applied to βασισ by enallage--a common poetic figure, but I prefer ευρινοσ as genitive modifying κυνοσ.

The fact that the word ευρινοσ (nom.) doesn't happen to occur again until much later in preserved texts isn't a very compelling objection, however.
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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by jeidsath »

Ὀδυσσεύς
ὦ φθέγμ’ Ἀθάνας, φιλτάτης ἐμοὶ θεῶν,
ὡς εὐμαθές σου, κἂν ἄποπτος ᾖς ὅμως,
φώνημ’ ἀκούω καὶ ξυναρπάζω φρενὶ
χαλκοστόμου κώδωνος ὡς Τυρσηνικῆς.

These last two lines remind me of the εὖ δέ σ’ ἐκφέρει... above.

καὶ νῦν ἐπέγνως εὖ μ’ ἐπ’ ἀνδρὶ δυσμενεῖ
βάσιν κυκλοῦντ’, Αἴαντι τῷ σακεσφόρῳ·
κεῖνον γάρ, οὐδέν’ ἄλλον, ἰχνεύω πάλαι.
νυκτὸς γὰρ ἡμᾶς τῆσδε πρᾶγος ἄσκοπον
ἔχει περάνας, εἴπερ εἴργασται τάδε·

It seems clears what ἔχει περάνας means here -- but what is this construction exactly? What sorts of participles can go with ἔχει like this?

ἴσμεν γὰρ οὐδὲν τρανές, ἀλλ’ ἀλώμεθα·
κἀγὼ ’θελοντὴς τῷδ’ ὑπεζύγην πόνῳ.

Is ὑπεζύγην πόνῳ mildly self-deprecating, ie., is Odysseus calling himself everybody's packhorse?

ἐφθαρμένας γὰρ ἀρτίως εὑρίσκομεν
λείας ἁπάσας καὶ κατηναρισμένας
ἐκ χειρὸς αὐτοῖς ποιμνίων ἐπιστάταις.
τήνδ’ οὖν ἐκείνῳ πᾶς τις αἰτίαν νέμει.
καί μοί τις ὀπτὴρ αὐτὸν εἰσιδὼν μόνον
πηδῶντα πεδία σὺν νεορράντῳ ξίφει

The first two syllables of πεδία are resolved here? Does that happen often?

φράζει τε κἀδήλωσεν· εὐθέως δ’ ἐγὼ
κατ’ ἴχνος ᾄσσω, καὶ τὰ μὲν σημαίνομαι,
τὰ δ’ ἐκπέπληγμαι κοὐκ ἔχω μαθεῖν ὅτου.

-πλ- is counted as a single consonant in ἐκπέπληγμαι (as it often is).

καιρὸν δ’ ἐφήκεις· πάντα γὰρ τά τ’ οὖν πάρος
τά τ’ εἰσέπειτα σῇ κυβερνῶμαι χερί.

The above speech is a lot easier than Athena's opening speech, I notice. Is Odysseus more plain-spoken than the God?
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by Hylander »

Is ὑπεζύγην πόνῳ mildly self-deprecating, ie., is Odysseus calling himself everybody's packhorse?
I think it's self-laudatory. Odysseus thinks of himself as a pro-active stand-up guy who does what's necessary on behalf of the community.
The first two syllables of πεδία are resolved here? Does that happen often?
Less common in tragedy than in comedy, but still not uncommon. It's a license that's used with discretion by Sophocles, but it's fairly common. Overuse would destroy the feeling for the iambic rhythm. But Aristophanes comes much closer to normal Attic speech.

LSJ εχω:
IV. after Hom., ἔχω as auxiliary, c. aor. part. giving a perfect sense, “κρύψαντες ἔχουσι” Hes.Op.42; “ἀποκληΐσας ἔχεις” Hdt.1.37; “ἐγκλῄσασ᾽ ἔχει” Ar.Ec.355, cf. Th.706; freq. in S., “θαυμάσας ἔχω” OC1140, cf. Ant.22, al.: also in late Prose, “ἀναλώσας ἔχεις” Aristid. Or.18(20).1; “ὅς σφε νῦν ἀτιμάσας ἔχει” E.Med.33: less freq. c. pf. part., S.OT 701, Ph.600, X.An.1.3.14,4.7.1: rarely c. pres. part., “πατρίδα καταστένουσ᾽ ἔχεις” E.Tr.318 (lyr.), cf. X.Cyn.10.11.
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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by jeidsath »

Reading through the scholia for this section I found a couple of bits about the craft:

ἔστι μέντοι ἐπὶ τῆς σκηνῆς ἡ Ἀθηνᾶ· δεῖ γὰρ τοῦτο χαρίζεσθαι τῷ θεατῇ

Like Darth Vader and the new Star Wars movies (prediction).

Εὐφυῶς δὲ ἄρχεται ὑποθέσεως ὁ ποιητὴς, ὥστε τρανῶσαι τὸ πᾶν διὰ τῆς Ἀθηνᾶς· θεραπεύει δὲ ὁ Ὀδυσσεὺς τὴν Ἀθηνᾶν, ἵνα καὶ ἐν τοῖς ἑξῆς ἕξῃ αὐτὴν εὐμενῆ.

Not only do we get the hypothesis of the play in this exchange, but Odysseus' service of Athena gives her the necessary character motivation for the upcoming scenes.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by mwh »

It seems clears what ἔχει περάνας means here -- but what is this construction exactly? What sorts of participles can go with ἔχει like this?
See Hylander’s LSJ link. Another ex. is Dionysus in Eur. Bacchae prolog, ὧν οὕνεκ’ εἶδος θνητὸν ἀλλάξας ἔχω “So I have swapped mortal form” (D is in human disguise, as gods are when they consort with mortals. Athena heard not seen by Od.)
The first two syllables of πεδία are resolved here? Does that happen often?
See Hylander. We had an example in line 6 above, ἴχνη τὰ κείνου νεοχάραχθ’, ὅπως ἴδῃς. Makes no difference whether preceding syllable is heavy or light.

πηδῶντα πεδία notably alliterative, and the string of shorts conveys impression of speed. An expressive phrase.
The above speech is a lot easier than Athena's opening speech, I notice. Is Odysseus more plain-spoken than the God?
I don’t discern any stylistic difference myself. Sophoclean characters all talk Sophoclean.
ἔστι μέντοι ἐπὶ τῆς σκηνῆς ἡ Ἀθηνᾶ· δεῖ γὰρ τοῦτο χαρίζεσθαι τῷ θεατῇ
Pure guesswork. She was probaby visible to audience (as in epilogs) but probably not on the skene with the characters; but we don’t really know. Sophocles follows tragic convention.
θεραπεύει δὲ ὁ Ὀδυσσεὺς τὴν Ἀθηνᾶν, ἵνα καὶ ἐν τοῖς ἑξῆς ἕξῃ αὐτὴν εὐμενῆ.
“Od. butters her up so as to keep her sweet in the upcoming scenes.”
ἕξῃ is a non-form. I suspect it was ἔχῃ, corrupted by ἑξῆς preceding.

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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by jeidsath »

ἕξῃ is a non-form. I suspect it was ἔχῃ, corrupted by ἑξῆς preceding.
Not ἔξῃ?
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by mwh »

No not ἔξῃ; that is a non-form. ἕξῃ, however, can perhaps stand after all. It's formed as if it were future subjunctive, and of course there is no such thing as a future subjunctive, but the form is occasionally found in late (very late) Greek used evidently as aorist subjunctive, equivalent to σχῇ. That makes me less confident in proposing εχη > εξη under the influence of εξης. If ἕξῃ was what the scholiast wrote, then the note is of no great antiquity.
— But it's an extremely tiny matter. Let's stick to Sophocles!
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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by Paul Derouda »

jeidsath wrote:It seems clears what ἔχει περάνας means here -- but what is this construction exactly? What sorts of participles can go with ἔχει like this?
It's called a periphrastic construction in modern linguistic lingo, typically involving either ἔχω or εἰμί + a participle. Albert Rijksbaron's The Syntax and Semantics of the Verb in Classical Greek (p. 130) actually gives this passage as the first example of the ἔχω + participle type.
ἔχω + participle

This is virtually confined to ἔχω + aorist participle
[...]
This periphrastic construction, which is called σχῆμα Ἀττικόν or Σοφόκλειον and is mainly found in Sophocles, Herodotus and Euripides, is generally considered to have the same stative-confective value as the monolectic perfect; one may point, in this connection, to the presence of the perfect εἴργασται in [the Ajax passage at hand], which refers to the same state as ἔχει περάνας. It is often said that these periphrastic perfects, rather than being alternatives to a monolectic form, with many verbs are the sole forms available to express stative-confective meaning in the active voice, since the monolectic perfects are not attested at all, or came into use after the classical period. [...too lazy to copy everything...] So in the end we have to reckon that with the possibility that this periphrastic construction, too, like the other ones, has a value of its own; with Moorhouse we might say that 'the aor. part. here seems to add a past notion to the continuing effect of ἔχω'.
Rijksbaron's book is pretty nice, not difficult and not too long, and with lots of illustrating examples. I'd recommend it, although I don't like all the jargon there, especially the constant use of the monster "state of affairs" instead of the much simpler "action".

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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by Paul Derouda »

And I too launched into reading Ajax. The beginning is surprisingly easy, I wonder if my Greek really has improved since I last attempted tragedy, or is this just another δόλος to lure me to read beyond the point of no return and then throttle me with extremely difficult cruces.

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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by mwh »

To encourage Paul, and maybe others, I think it’s fair to say that the rest of the spoken dialogue throughout the play is no more difficult than the beginning. The sung parts are another matter, but really they’re not so very tough either, and they’re intensely interesting. And Joel has linked Jebb’s translation and notes to help us along.

Paul can say later whether this is Odyssean dolos designed to suck him in.

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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by jeidsath »

Ἀθηνᾶ
ἔγνων, Ὀδυσσεῦ, καὶ πάλαι φύλαξ ἔβην
τῇ σῇ πρόθυμος εἰς ὁδὸν κυναγίᾳ.

This is hard for me because of all the delayed resolution going on at once. My brain isn't good enough yet at expecting what is coming. πρόθυμος is answering φύλαξ at the same time as ἔβην is waiting for εἰς ὁδὸν and τῇ σῇ is waiting for κυναγίᾳ. Take any one of the elements out and I can read it naturally, but 3 is too much for me right now.

Also maybe someone can explain Doric forms like κυναγίᾳ and Ἀθάνας to me? I know about α sometimes replacing η, but that's about it. Also where does Sophocles use Doricisms? And why?

Ὀδυσσεύς
ἦ καί, φίλη δέσποινα, πρὸς καιρὸν πονῶ;
Ἀθηνᾶ
ὡς ἔστιν ἀνδρὸς τοῦδε τἄργα ταῦτά σοι.

Jebb helpfully mentions the ethical dative. It always reminds me of the comedy bit in Taming of the Shrew that goes "rap me this gate, knock me that door," etc.

Ὀδυσσεύς
καὶ πρὸς τί δυσλόγιστον ὧδ’ ᾖξεν χέρα;
Ἀθηνᾶ
χόλῳ βαρυνθεὶς τῶν Ἀχιλλείων ὅπλων.
Ὀδυσσεύς
τί δῆτα ποίμναις τήνδ’ ἐπεμπίπτει βάσιν;

Why βάσιν?

Ἀθηνᾶ
δοκῶν ἐν ὑμῖν χεῖρα χραίνεσθαι φόνῳ.
Ὀδυσσεύς
ἦ καὶ τὸ βούλευμ’ ὡς ἐπ’ Ἀργείοις τόδ’ ἦν;
Ἀθηνᾶ
κἂν ἐξεπράξατ’, εἰ κατημέλησ’ ἐγώ.
Ὀδυσσεύς
ποίαισι τόλμαις ταῖσδε καὶ φρενῶν θράσει;
Ἀθηνᾶ
νύκτωρ ἐφ’ ὑμᾶς δόλιος ὁρμᾶται μόνος.
Ὀδυσσεύς
ἦ καὶ παρέστη κἀπὶ τέρμ’ ἀφίκετο;
Ἀθηνᾶ
καὶ δὴ ’πὶ δισσαῖς ἦν στρατηγίσιν πύλαις.
Ὀδυσσεύς
καὶ πῶς ἐπέσχε χεῖρα μαιμῶσαν φόνου;

I don't really know the word μαιμῶσαν, but for some reason I'm surprised to see φόνου instead of a participle. Also the LSJ mentions that it might go with ἐπέσχε instead.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by Hylander »

κυναγίᾳ -- It's not usual to find a Doric form in tragic dialogue, but LSJ cites two other instances (one merely probable) of this word in tragedy. I don't have an answer for this.

The dialogue in Greek (Athenian) drama is Attic-ionic; the choral/lyric passages are in "Doric", which is really a lightly Doricized Attic. You will see examples of this when the chorus marches in. Genre and dialect are inextricably linked in classical Greek. Doric is the dialect of choral poetry, even when written by Boeotians or Athenians, just as Tyrtaeus wrote quintessentially Spartan elegy in Ionic. But literary "Doric" is far removed from the language actually spoken in Doric-speaking communities.

"This is hard for me because of all the delayed resolution going on at once." You'd better get used to hyperbaton--it's a natural feature of inflected languages. It's as pervasive in contemporary colloquial Russian, for example, as in ancient Greek.

τί δῆτα ποίμναις τήνδ’ ἐπεμπίπτει βάσιν; I would explain βάσιν as an internal accusative or accusative of respect, "this attack" maybe.

χεῖρα μαιμῶσαν φόνου -- Smyth 1349:
The genitive is used with verbs signifying to aim at, strive after, desire (genitive of the end desired).
““ἀνθρώπων στοχάζεσθαι” to aim at men” X. C. 1.6.29, ““ἐφι_έμενοι τῶν κερδῶν” desiring gain” T. 1.8, ““πάντες τῶν ἀγαθῶν ἐπιθυ_μοῦσιν” all men desire what is good” P. R. 438a, ““τὸ ἐρᾶν τῶν καλῶν” the passionate love of what is noble” Aes. 1.137, ““πεινῶσι χρημάτων” they are hungry for wealth” X. S. 4. 36, ““πόλις ἐλευθερία_ς διψήσα_σα” a state thirsting for freedom” P. R. 562c. So with ὀϊστεύειν shoot at (poet.), λιλαίεσθαι desire (poet.), γλίχεσθαι desire. φιλεῖν love, ποθεῖν long for take the accusative.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 99.04.0007
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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by Hylander »

ἐπέσχε χεῖρα μαιμῶσαν φόνου -- LSJ suggests that φόνου could be a complement of ἐπέσχε rather than of μαιμῶσαν:

"What restrained his desiring/aiming hand from murder?"

as opposed to

"What restrained his hand desiring/aiming at murder?".

Both alternatives are plausible.
Bill Walderman

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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by mwh »

ἔγνων, Ὀδυσσεῦ, καὶ πάλαι φύλαξ ἔβην
τῇ σῇ πρόθυμος εἰς ὁδὸν κυναγίᾳ.

This is hard for me because of all the delayed resolution going on at once. My brain isn't good enough yet at expecting what is coming. πρόθυμος is answering φύλαξ at the same time as ἔβην is waiting for εἰς ὁδὸν and τῇ σῇ is waiting for κυναγίᾳ. Take any one of the elements out and I can read it naturally, but 3 is too much for me right now.
You’ll get used to it. And there’s really not much in the way of delay here. You have to put τῃ σῃ on hold pending its noun at the end, but otherwise the words fall “naturally” into place. The information is fed out bit by bit, and that’s the way we ought to process it. Whatever you do don’t go reshuffling them.
Also maybe someone can explain Doric forms like κυναγίᾳ and Ἀθάνας to me? I know about α sometimes replacing η, but that's about it. Also where does Sophocles use Doricisms? And why?
“I was hoping you weren’t going to ask that particular question.” These are freaks. You expect Attic κυνηγ-, but for some reason Attic drama uses the Doric form even in spoken dialogue, where normally only Attic forms are used. And you might expect Αθήνης, but ordinary Attic uses Αθηνᾶς (contracted from Αθηναίας) instead, and tragedy sticks to the Doric form, don’t ask me why. As I say, they’re freaks, but regular in tragedy, for whatever reason. Best not to fret about them.

Doric forms in lyric are another matter. In a nutshell: In Ionic and Attic, long alpha, sometimes called “Doric” alpha (but it’s Aeolic too), was replaced by η, with certain phonologically defined exceptions in Attic. (So it’s actually back-to-front to call it Doric alpha: really it’s Attic eta.) Dictionary entries follow the Attic form, so if you want to look a word up you have to convert it to its Attic form first.

The Athenian dramatists used these “Doric” forms in lyric passages, i.e. passages that were sung, whether by the chorus or by individual characters. It’s a nod to their heritage, and in compliance with convention; it’s a matter of generic propriety. Stesichorus, Pindar, Bacchylides, regardless of their own dialects, composed in a more or less standardized form of “literary Doric," and it became de rigueur—including for dithyrambs and paeans performed at Athens.
In tragedy, however, it’s much watered down, and the distinctively Doric forms (verb endings, for instance) don’t occur. Practically all you find is this universal alpha for the Attic eta. So it’s easy! [Edit: And meter helps with identifying long alphas.]
τί δῆτα ποίμναις τήνδ’ ἐπεμπίπτει βάσιν;

Why βάσιν?
Short answer: It’s euphemistic; it’s somewhat highflown, in keeping with Sophoclean dialogue. I see no significance in its lexical repeat of the Laconian hound’s ευρινος βασις, but no doubt others would.
καὶ πῶς ἐπέσχε χεῖρα μαιμῶσαν φόνου;

I don't really know the word μαιμῶσαν, but for some reason I'm surprised to see φόνου instead of a participle. Also the LSJ mentions that it might go with ἐπέσχε instead.
μαιμῶσαν gives you your participle (though I’m not sure why you were expecting one). φόνου is practically inevitable. Whether it goes with επεσχε or with μαιμωσαν is a false dilemma. We should resist these either/or choices.

PS Above written before seeing Hylander. You can expect less from me from now on!
Last edited by mwh on Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by mwh »

Promises, promises.

36-50
Ath. ἔγνων, Ὀδυσσεῦ, καὶ πάλαι φύλαξ ἔβην
τῇ σῇ πρόθυμος εἰς ὁδὸν κυναγίᾳ.
Q.(Od.) ἦ καί, φίλη δέσποινα, πρὸς καιρὸν πονῶ;
A. ὡς ἔστιν ἀνδρὸς τοῦδε τἄργα ταῦτά σοι.
Q. καὶ πρὸς τί δυσλόγιστον ὧδ’ ᾖξεν χέρα;
A. χόλῳ βαρυνθεὶς τῶν Ἀχιλλείων ὅπλων.
Q. τί δῆτα ποίμναις τήνδ’ ἐπεμπίπτει βάσιν;
A. δοκῶν ἐν ὑμῖν χεῖρα χραίνεσθαι φόνῳ.
Q. ἦ καὶ τὸ βούλευμ’ ὡς ἐπ’ Ἀργείοις τόδ’ ἦν;
A. κἂν ἐξεπράξατ’, εἰ κατημέλησ’ ἐγώ.
Q. ποίαισι τόλμαις ταῖσδε καὶ φρενῶν θράσει;
A. νύκτωρ ἐφ’ ὑμᾶς δόλιος ὁρμᾶται μόνος.
Q. ἦ καὶ παρέστη κἀπὶ τέρμ’ ἀφίκετο;
A. καὶ δὴ ’πὶ δισσαῖς ἦν στρατηγίσιν πύλαις.
Q. καὶ πῶς ἐπέσχε χεῖρα μαιμῶσαν φόνου;
A. ἐγώ σφ’ ἀπείργω, and on she goes with a mini-messenger speech.

In this stichomythic Q&A section between Odysseus and Athena I was struck by all the καί’s, how they enliven the dialogue and add nuance and a sense of engagement. And with other particles. Here we have usage examples of ἦ καί (3 times!), and καὶ δή, and τί δῆτα, and καί itself, in both questions and answers. All these are worth looking at in context. Not a single word is arbitrary or otiose. And not a γε in sight.
Amazing how with such a formal structure (the characters alternating with a single verse apiece) Sophocles manages to create a dialogue so very realistic in its progression.

Also striking, of course, going back a bit, is the startlingly abrupt way Sophocles begins the play, with Athena addressing Odysseus as he snuffles around. Euripides routinely kicks off his plays with an expository prolog, clueing us in to what we need to know. Sophocles feeds us the background info in a more, well, a more dramatic way, throwing us directly into the action under way and having the characters explain things to each other.

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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by jeidsath »

I've read up to the chorus now (will hopefully post language questions once I have some free time) and was very struck by that section. It reminded me of some of the old Norse question/answer poems. In performance it must have been striking. I know that there are sections of Shakespeare that go like this, but I can't think of any off hand.

My other thought, on re-reading, was that Athena is carefully testing Odysseus to see if he will get above himself (hubris!) and deride Ajax. Ajax fails this same test when Athena proposes it to him over Odysseus.
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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by mwh »

And I was so hoping we could get through without dragging in hubris! Gloating over Ajax’s deluded state would not be hubris. It wouldn’t be very nice, but since when are enemies supposed to be nice to each other?
And is she in fact testing him, or is she simply inviting her protégé to take advantage of the situation she’s created for him? She’s uncomprehending of his reluctance or why it’s repugnant to him.
What I get out of the scene is Athena’s inhumanity, as contrasted with Odysseus’ decency. If she expects him to take pleasure in the madness she has so cruelly inflicted on Ajax, she’ll be disappointed. Odysseus, even though he is Ajax’s imagined victim, has no wish to see him out of his mind like this; he recoils from it. Athena, on the other hand, is a god, and gods lack human sensibilities—as how could they not, being immortal? No There-but-for-the-grace-of-God feelings for them. They are incapable of empathy. Athena is in no position to set moral tests for anyone.

You are certainly moving fast. Too fast for anyone to keep up with you? I didn’t know we’d gone beyond v.50.

“One cannot read a book: one can only reread it,” according to Nabokov. Not that Sophocles’ audience had the opportunity, and we should make sure we keep a sense of the play as it moves forward, without knowing how it will proceed. (We should know that Ajax will kill himself, but that's about it.) In that sense to reread is to forgo the experience of reading. But certainly I find when I reread a passage that I get more out of it than first time through. And with Sophocles rereading and close reading always pay off.

So back for a moment to that first passage of stichomythia, reproduced above. What’s the most characteristically Sophoclean line there? My vote would go to
(40) καὶ πρὸς τί δυσλόγιστον ὧδ’ ᾖξεν χέρα;
“And towards what did he thus dart his hard-to-make-sense-of/miscalculating hand.”
Why? (i) The vivid image and bold syntax of ᾖξεν χέρα (ᾖξεν is surely intransitive and χέρα internal accusative, pace Jebb and LSJ, cf. τήνδ’ ἐπεμπίπτει βάσιν two lines later), and (ii) the compound δυσλογιστον along with its application to χερα, its predicativeness, and (again pace Jebb and LSJ) its ambiguousness.

EDIT. Joel, Is this thread on the right course? Don’t you want to elicit questions and contributions from others on language difficulties etc., and take it more slowly, passage by passage as you started, so that everyone can follow and participate? We’re skating over all sorts of things that might cause problems, and I fear the risk of misunderstanding or simply of not understanding the Greek at the verbal level is high. It’s your thread, but let’s not have it become nothing but responses to your particular queries and comments.

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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by jeidsath »

This is completely unrelated, but you may enjoy this response to a critical review of Nabakov's translation of Pushkin into English in the New York Review of books (it's a favorite of mine, especially the words "glossological disarray"):

The Strange Case of Nabokov and Wilson

***

When I read through this section of Ajax at first, I thought that Odysseus seemed cowardly, Athena capricious, and Ajax mistreated. But then 127-133 changed my whole opinion. Athena, the center of the cult to 5th century audiences, wouldn't be held up to normal standards. The same sort of thing occurs at church -- a pastor can mention God is Love and the Great Deluge in the same sermon and most people won't feel a disconnect. For the 5th century audience, the question isn't so much "why would the Gods do this to Ajax?" Instead it's "what did Ajax do wrong for the Gods to do this to him?"

I think these moralizing lines explain the whole situation. Athena's questions to Ajax concerning Odysseus are very similar to the questions that she asked to Odysseus concerning Ajax. And the answers by each Odysseus and Ajax were completely opposite. Athena presents her concluding moral about how it's proper for mortals to behave, and she seems to be distinguishing between Odysseus and Ajax.

***

The scholia have lots of explanations for δυσλόγιστον:

καὶ πρὸς τί δυσλόγιστον: Ἐπύθετο πρῶτον, εἰ αὐτός ἐστιν ὁ δράσας· εἶτα καὶ τὴν αἰτίαν πυντάνεται· τὸ δὲ δυσλόγιστον ὅμοιον τῷ "πρᾶγος ἄσκοπον." Ἀγνοεῖ γὰρ ἔτι τὴν μανίαν.

ΠΡΟΣ ΤΙ, βλέπων, ἀφορῶν δηλονότι· πρὸς ποῖον σκοπὸν ἀφορῶν. ΗΙΞΕΝ ἀντὶ τοῦ ἤϊξε, καὶ ἐκίνησεν οὕτω χεῖρα. ΔΥΣΛΟΓΙΣΤΟΝ· ἔστι δὲ ἀντὶ ἐπιῤῥήματος, ἀντὶ τοῦ δυσλογίστως· ὥσπερ ταχὺς ἤλθεν, ἀντὶ τοῦ ταχέως.

(That last one could also be καὶ ἐκίνησεν οὕτω χεῖρα δυσλόγιστον.)

The same (?) scholiast seems to have commented a very similar thing to Hecuba 800:

ΟΥΔΕΝ ΤΙ ΜΑΛΛΟΝ. ἀντὶ τοῦ οὐδαμῶς, ὄνομα ἀντὶ ἐπιρρήματος, ὡς τὸ ταχὺς ἦλθεν, ἀντὶ τοῦ ταχέως. ὡς ὄνομα γὰρ δύναται ἔχειν ὑποτεταγμένον τὸ τί.

To be honest, I mentally read it as an adverb until you made me look more carefully.

***

I thought that I had been reading too slow, to be honest! I will worry less about pushing through. I've been terribly busy at work and mostly been reading Plato and Xenophon the last few days.

The rereading is a function of my lack of Greek. It takes some work to conquer each new section of Sophocles, and then I try to reread it a few times (and listen to it on a recording) until I know I won't forget it.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by mwh »

[All I remember of the Nabokov-Wilson exchange—N’s nasty cavilling and lofty putdown is NYRB letters page all over—is something I don’t see here: “I have wasted a full half day exposing Wilson’s blunders, when I could have been much better employed …” or something of the sort. Or perhaps that was aimed against someone else. He was touchy in his arrogance. But what a novelist!]

I think your take on the first episode of the Ajax is too simplistic. I would agree with your first impression that Athena seems capricious—indeed, vicious—and Ajax mistreated (but not that Odysseus seems cowardly: that is only Athena’s uncomprehending smear). But I don’t think her concluding “moral” does anything to change that, or that it explains anything at all. Her questions to Odysseus and Ajax may be much the same, but their responses differ because their respective situations differ. Odysseus is sane and Ajax—thanks to Athena—is not.
“Gods,” she says in her closing words, as if summing up, “love τους σώφρονας and detest τους κακούς.” But how does this apply? It’s true that Ajax is no longer σωφρων (with his phrenes safe and sound)—but that’s because she’s robbed him of his phrenes and driven him mad! The play has made it difficult to take Athena's words as more than empty platitude.

Odysseus (even Odysseus!) pities poor Ajax, deluded and mocked by a goddess to whom pity is unknown. So would the audience, and so should we.

This too is too simplistic, but I think it’s more right than wrong.

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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by Paul Derouda »

Well, I've been even more in a hurry than Joel and reached line 200 during the weekend. I've read the text with Finglass's commentary, which I find very good but a bit too thorough for my use. I mostly skip the parts where he addresses textual questions, who conjectured what and that sort of thing. Someone here has said that Finglass is difficult to read, but I don't find it so, he translates every word of the Greek and covers a lot of ground even for relative beginners.

I suppose mwh is right that you could spend a lifetime (ok, that's not exactly what he said...) with a single Greek tragedy, but my approach now is "move on!" There's a lot of weird Greek and weird ideas going on, but that doesn't surprise me in a tragedy. One that caught my particular attention is ποτέ with a present tense, here:

194 ff.
Ἀλλ᾽ ἄνα ἐξ ἑδράνων, ὅπου μακραίωνι
στηρίζῃ ποτὲ τᾷδ᾽ ἀγωνίῳ σχολᾷ
ἄταν οὐρανίαν φλέγων.

I don't remember ever seeing this before. According to Finglass, "ποτέ emphasizes the long duration of Ajax's inaction, just as it often intensifies ἀεί: cf. Αnt. 456-7 ἀεί ποτε | ζῇ ταῦτα ('ποτε helps the phrase to stretch indefinitely into the past': Griffith), Eur. Αlc. 569, Ion 1329, Ar. Av. 1545, and prose examples." I suppose you'd translate it "ever" or "always" here. Does this use actually exist in prose without ἀεί as here?

As to the meaning of this beginning, I don't even attempt an explanation of my own. I'd note, though, that sometimes better than the monotheistic one we're so accustomed to, a polytheistic view of the world where different gods have conflicting interests seems to explain the erratic changes of fortune that we humans experience in this world of suffering.

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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by jeidsath »

mwh wrote:EDIT. Joel, Is this thread on the right course? Don’t you want to elicit questions and contributions from others on language difficulties etc., and take it more slowly, passage by passage as you started, so that everyone can follow and participate? We’re skating over all sorts of things that might cause problems, and I fear the risk of misunderstanding or simply of not understanding the Greek at the verbal level is high. It’s your thread, but let’s not have it become nothing but responses to your particular queries and comments.
I could go line by line and post a translation/small commentary of each for others to correct, if that would work better.
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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by mwh »

@Paul
ποτε: Here μακραιωνι does much the same job as αει, so ποτε by itself is not too strange. I wouldn't expect it to be used like this without αει in prose. (Thucydides if anywhere?) ποτε common enough with present tense with interrogatives, of course.

Seems to me that any theistic belief system has trouble accounting for how people fare in life. It helps if you have either gods disengaged from human affairs (as in Epicureanism) or some kind of compensatory afterlife. I’d agree polytheism can make it a bit easier than mono-, but not much. The Greek gods act individually and often in conflict (think of poor Hippolytus caught between Aphrodite and Artemis), and any god will zap anyone who offends her/him, wittingly or not. The tricky job of aligning this with a divinely operated system of justice—the gods collectively liking people who behave well and disliking people who don't, and treating them accordingly—is often thematized in tragedy, and we can trace a shift from Aeschylus (accepting via generational continuity and limited to Zeus?) to Euripides (openly querying). Where does Sophocles stand? Joel buys into what Athena claims on this score, I’m not so sure.

@jeidsath
Well it’s your thread as I said, and now Paul has joined in and wants to go faster! (which has much to be said for it if people are capable of it). So whatever you think best.

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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by C. S. Bartholomew »

I have been following this to see what other people find difficult about Sophocles. Paul read 200 lines in less than week! The speed at which one reads is linked to several factors: familiarity with the conventions of the genre, vocabulary and the story line. It is also linked to the goals set out for the project. The combination of rare vocabulary, rebarbative syntax, obscure idioms, metaphors, euphemisms, textual corruption ... if you pause to ponder these issues, your reading will slow down since you will be making trips to reference works.
C. Stirling Bartholomew

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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by jeidsath »

Lines 1-13 Translation with some questions and no doubt mistakes.

ἀεὶ μέν, ὦ παῖ Λαρτίου, δέδορκά σε
πεῖράν τιν’ ἐχθρῶν ἁρπάσαι θηρώμενον·

O son of Laertes, I have always watched you trying to snatch some hunted foe
καὶ νῦν ἐπὶ σκηναῖς σε ναυτικαῖς ὁρῶ
Αἴαντος,

and now, at the tents of the sailors I see you [at the tent of] Ajax,
ἔνθα τάξιν ἐσχάτην ἔχει,
where he holds the farthest position,
πάλαι κυνηγετοῦντα καὶ μετρούμενον
ἴχνη τὰ κείνου νεοχάραχθ’,

hunting and long considering his fresh-made tracks,
ὅπως ἴδῃς
εἴτ’ ἔνδον εἴτ’ οὐκ ἔνδον.

to see if he is inside or not inside.
εὖ δέ σ’ ἐκφέρει
κυνὸς Λακαίνης ὥς τις εὔρινος βάσις.

feet quickly carrying you like a keen-scented Laconian hound,
ἔνδον γὰρ ἁνὴρ ἄρτι τυγχάνει,
Your man chances [to be] inside right now
κάρα
στάζων ἱδρῶτι καὶ χέρας ξιφοκτόνους.

head dripping sweat and his sword-slaying hands.
Jebb tells me to treat hands as part of the subject. I would appreciate some examples of this happening elsewhere!
καί σ’ οὐδὲν εἴσω τῆσδε παπταίνειν πύλης
and there no longer of your sneaking glances through the door
ἔτ’ ἔργον ἐστίν, ἐννέπειν δ’ ὅτου χάριν
remains a need, but tell if you like
ἔργον ἐστίν--"is a need" in the LSJ, but I should have looked up the examples. Post them if you'd like.
σπουδὴν ἔθου τήνδ’, ὡς παρ’ εἰδυίας μάθῃς.
why you've rushed yourself, so that you may take your lessons from this knowing goddess.
ἔθου is aorist-middle τίθημι, I assume? And yes, εἰδυίας is just "her-who-knows."
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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by mwh »

ἀεὶ μέν, ὦ παῖ Λαρτίου, δέδορκά σε
πεῖράν τιν’ ἐχθρῶν ἁρπάσαι θηρώμενον·
O son of Laertes, I have always watched you trying to snatch some hunted foe
Νο, θηρωμενον is middle, agreeing with σε, and αρπασαι is governed by it. “hunting/searching/seeking to snatch some attempt on your enemies.” (tινα with pειραν.) LSJ probably gives examples.
πάλαι κυνηγετοῦντα καὶ μετρούμενον
ἴχνη τὰ κείνου νεοχάραχθ’,
hunting and long considering his fresh-made tracks,
Not , the participles continue σε … ὁρῶ in the text.
pαλαι with kυνηγετουντα.
κάρα στάζων ἱδρῶτι καὶ χέρας ξιφοκτόνους.
head dripping sweat and his sword-slaying hands.
Jebb tells me to treat hands as part of the subject. I would appreciate some examples of this happening elsewhere!
I think you must have misunderstood Jebb. The construction is a perfectly ordinary one: lit. “dripping with sweat as to his head and sword-slaying hands” i.e. “his head and s-s hands dripping with sweat.” kara and xeras acc. of “respect” or “part concerned.” Cf. Aesch. αἵματι σταζοντα χεῖρας (LSJ) for the construction with sταζω, but it’s found with alll sorts of verbs. Perhaps Ajax’s hands are dripping with blood as well as sweat (but no tears yet), but Athena doesn’t say so. It’s the exertion she focusses on. — His sword was/will be fresh-spattered (with blood) in 30 πηδῶντα πεδία σὺν νεορράντῳ ξίφει, a magnificent line (lit. leaping the plains together with new-sprinkled sword, but who can bear to translate or paraphrase language like this?!). —Does Finglass comment on the alliteration and resolution? Jebb doesn't.
καί σ’ οὐδὲν εἴσω τῆσδε παπταίνειν πύλης
and there no longer of your sneaking glances through the door
ἔτ’ ἔργον ἐστίν, ἐννέπειν δ’ ὅτου χάριν
remains a need, but tell if you like
ἔργον ἐστίν--"is a need" in the LSJ, but I should have looked up the examples. Post them if you'd like.
οὐδὲν … ἔτ’ ἔργον ἐστίν “there’s no need any longer,” “there’s not still any need”
σ(ε) εἴσω τῆσδε παπταίνειν πύλης acc.&infin. “that you…” i.e. “for you to go on peering inside this gate here,” Cf. later on in the play (852) aλλ’ ουδεν εργον ταυτα θρηνεισθαι ματην.
ἐννέπειν δ’ ὅτου χάριν “but (there is need for you) to say why …” ὅτου χάριν “for the sake of what,” “why”, χαριν used much like ενεκα. Exx. in LSJ no doubt. (Not “tell if you like”!)

Sorry no technicolor.

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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by jeidsath »

mwh wrote:
ἀεὶ μέν, ὦ παῖ Λαρτίου, δέδορκά σε
πεῖράν τιν’ ἐχθρῶν ἁρπάσαι θηρώμενον·
O son of Laertes, I have always watched you trying to snatch some hunted foe
Νο, θηρωμενον is middle, agreeing with σε, and αρπασαι is governed by it. “hunting/searching/seeking to snatch some attempt on your enemies.” (tινα with pειραν.) LSJ probably gives examples.
It's obvious now that you break it down. I read πεῖραν as an aorist participle, thinking that it agreed with σε. But that would have to be πείραντα.
mwh wrote:
πάλαι κυνηγετοῦντα καὶ μετρούμενον
ἴχνη τὰ κείνου νεοχάραχθ’,
hunting and long considering his fresh-made tracks,
Not , the participles continue σε … ὁρῶ in the text.
pαλαι with kυνηγετουντα.

So I saw the σε and ὁρῶ, but I assumed that the πάλαι makes the English present tense impossible. In Greek (my reasoning went) you can be πάλαι νοσῶ, but not in English. So I changed it to past tense in English. "I have been until now and continue to be." Also, I would have thought that the πάλαι applies to both κυνηγετοῦντα καὶ μετρούμενον, and is therefore naturally placed with the second in English.
mwh wrote:
κάρα στάζων ἱδρῶτι καὶ χέρας ξιφοκτόνους.
head dripping sweat and his sword-slaying hands.
Jebb tells me to treat hands as part of the subject. I would appreciate some examples of this happening elsewhere!
I think you must have misunderstood Jebb. The construction is a perfectly ordinary one: lit. “dripping with sweat as to his head and sword-slaying hands” i.e. “his head and s-s hands dripping with sweat.” kara and xeras acc. of “respect” or “part concerned.” Cf. Aesch. αἵματι σταζοντα χεῖρας (LSJ) for the construction with sταζω, but it’s found with alll sorts of verbs. Perhaps Ajax’s hands are dripping with blood as well as sweat (but no tears yet), but Athena doesn’t say so. It’s the exertion she focusses on. — His sword was/will be fresh-spattered (with blood) in 30 πηδῶντα πεδία σὺν νεορράντῳ ξίφει, a magnificent line (lit. leaping the plains together with new-sprinkled sword, but who can bear to translate or paraphrase language like this?!). —Does Finglass comment on the alliteration and resolution? Jebb doesn't.

κάρα is accusative! I thought it was feminine, but now that I look it up in the LSJ, I see that it is neuter. I thought that the τυγχάνει στάζων must be one expression and refer to ὁ ἀνὴρ, but I confused myself thinking that it was ἡ κάρα, not τὸ κάρα. Everything you say makes sense now.
mwh wrote:
καί σ’ οὐδὲν εἴσω τῆσδε παπταίνειν πύλης
and there no longer of your sneaking glances through the door
ἔτ’ ἔργον ἐστίν, ἐννέπειν δ’ ὅτου χάριν
remains a need, but tell if you like
ἔργον ἐστίν--"is a need" in the LSJ, but I should have looked up the examples. Post them if you'd like.
οὐδὲν … ἔτ’ ἔργον ἐστίν “there’s no need any longer,” “there’s not still any need”

And that's what I wrote, but you have to look at the line before.
mwh wrote:σ(ε) εἴσω τῆσδε παπταίνειν πύλης acc.&infin. “that you…” i.e. “for you to go on peering inside this gate here,” Cf. later on in the play (852) aλλ’ ουδεν εργον ταυτα θρηνεισθαι ματην.
ἐννέπειν δ’ ὅτου χάριν “but (there is need for you) to say why …” ὅτου χάριν “for the sake of what,” “why”, χαριν used much like ενεκα. Exx. in LSJ no doubt. (Not “tell if you like”!)

Sorry no technicolor.


Thank you!
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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by jeidsath »

ὦ φθέγμ’ Ἀθάνας, φιλτάτης ἐμοὶ θεῶν,
O voice of Athena, most loved to me of the Gods,
ὡς εὐμαθές σου, κἂν ἄποπτος ᾖς ὅμως,
thus I easily understand you, and even if you are unseen,
φώνημ’ ἀκούω καὶ ξυναρπάζω φρενὶ
χαλκοστόμου κώδωνος ὡς Τυρσηνικῆς.

I hear your voice and grasp it with my phrenes like it's a bronze Tyrrhenian trumpet.
I don't really understand the construction of ὡς and the genitive κώδωνος here. Is it genitive because of ὡς or ἀκούω? Also exactly what is this ὡς (and the one before it doing)?
καὶ νῦν ἐπέγνως εὖ μ’ ἐπ’ ἀνδρὶ δυσμενεῖ
βάσιν κυκλοῦντ’, Αἴαντι τῷ σακεσφόρῳ·

And now you have well observed me circling about a man of chaotic violence, Ajax the shieldbearer.
κεῖνον γάρ, οὐδέν’ ἄλλον, ἰχνεύω πάλαι.
For this one, and no one else, I have long tracked until now.
νυκτὸς γὰρ ἡμᾶς τῆσδε πρᾶγος ἄσκοπον
ἔχει περάνας, εἴπερ εἴργασται τάδε·

For this night to us a senseless deed was perpetrated, if he really did this,
Is πρᾶγος ἄσκοπον the subject? Why isn't περάνας neuter then? Does τῆσδε refer to νυκτὸς? Does ἡμᾶς accusative mean the deed was done to them?
ἴσμεν γὰρ οὐδὲν τρανές, ἀλλ’ ἀλώμεθα·
κἀγὼ ’θελοντὴς τῷδ’ ὑπεζύγην πόνῳ.

For we know nothing certain, but are perplexed. And I, a volunteer, yoked myself to this task.
ἐφθαρμένας γὰρ ἀρτίως εὑρίσκομεν
λείας ἁπάσας καὶ κατηναρισμένας
ἐκ χειρὸς αὐτοῖς ποιμνίων ἐπιστάταις.

Just now we found all our rustled cattle destroyed, by a hand slain, despoiled along with those set over the flocks.
τήνδ’ οὖν ἐκείνῳ πᾶς τις αἰτίαν νέμει.
Of this to him indeed every one assigns the guilt.
καί μοί τις ὀπτὴρ αὐτὸν εἰσιδὼν μόνον
πηδῶντα πεδία σὺν νεορράντῳ ξίφει
φράζει τε κἀδήλωσεν·

And a witness said and explained to me that he saw him alone bounding across the plain with a dripping sword
εὐθέως δ’ ἐγὼ
κατ’ ἴχνος ᾄσσω, καὶ τὰ μὲν σημαίνομαι,
τὰ δ’ ἐκπέπληγμαι κοὐκ ἔχω μαθεῖν ὅτου.

And I quickly dart along the track, comprehending some, having been perplexed by the rest and not having learned the cause.
καιρὸν δ’ ἐφήκεις· πάντα γὰρ τά τ’ οὖν πάρος
τά τ’ εἰσέπειτα σῇ κυβερνῶμαι χερί.

So you appear at a timely moment. For in everything, past and future, I am guided by your hand.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by Paul Derouda »

jeidsath wrote:φώνημ’ ἀκούω καὶ ξυναρπάζω φρενὶ
χαλκοστόμου κώδωνος ὡς Τυρσηνικῆς.
I hear your voice and grasp it with my phrenes like it's a bronze Tyrrhenian trumpet.
I don't really understand the construction of ὡς and the genitive κώδωνος here. Is it genitive because of ὡς or ἀκούω? Also exactly what is this ὡς (and the one before it doing)?
"I hear your voice and grasp it with my phrenes like [the voice] of a bronze Tyrrhenian trumpet."
jeidsath wrote:καὶ νῦν ἐπέγνως εὖ μ’ ἐπ’ ἀνδρὶ δυσμενεῖ
βάσιν κυκλοῦντ’, Αἴαντι τῷ σακεσφόρῳ·
And now you have well observed me circling about a man of chaotic violence, Ajax the shieldbearer.
ἀνδρὶ δυσμενεῖ is just a (poetic?) word for enemy.
jeidsath wrote:νυκτὸς γὰρ ἡμᾶς τῆσδε πρᾶγος ἄσκοπον
ἔχει περάνας, εἴπερ εἴργασται τάδε·
For this night to us a senseless deed was perpetrated, if he really did this,
Is πρᾶγος ἄσκοπον the subject? Why isn't περάνας neuter then? Does τῆσδε refer to νυκτὸς? Does ἡμᾶς accusative mean the deed was done to them?
νυκτὸς genitive (of νύξ) works here as if it were an adverb, "during the night". The subject of ἔχει περάνας is Ajax. Why would ἔχει περάνας and εἴργασται have different subjects? (Though I suppose εἴπερ εἴργασται τάδε could also be passive, "if this has really been done", medium "if he really did it" seems more likely.).

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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by Paul Derouda »

mwh wrote:His sword was/will be fresh-spattered (with blood) in 30 πηδῶντα πεδία σὺν νεορράντῳ ξίφει, a magnificent line (lit. leaping the plains together with new-sprinkled sword, but who can bear to translate or paraphrase language like this?!). —Does Finglass comment on the alliteration and resolution? Jebb doesn't.
He doesn't comment on either, but he gives a number of parallels, which may or may not be interesting, since I haven't looked them up. "Ajax is now guiding slow-moving animals back to his encampment, but thanks to S.'s partial revelation of the action, the audience does not yet know that. When they do, S. uses less colourful verbs of motion (63 κομίζεται, 296 ἐσῆλθε)."

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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by C. S. Bartholomew »

Paul Derouda wrote:
jeidsath wrote:φώνημ’ ἀκούω καὶ ξυναρπάζω φρενὶ
χαλκοστόμου κώδωνος ὡς Τυρσηνικῆς.
I hear your voice and grasp it with my phrenes like it's a bronze Tyrrhenian trumpet.
I don't really understand the construction of ὡς and the genitive κώδωνος here. Is it genitive because of ὡς or ἀκούω? Also exactly what is this ὡς (and the one before it doing)?
"I hear your voice and grasp it with my phrenes like [the voice] of a bronze Tyrrhenian trumpet."
ὡς introduces a comparison that takes the form of a genitive chain (like a construct chain in bibiclal Hebrew) χαλκοστόμου κώδωνος ... τυρσηνικῆς. If you want a category, genitive of source (the source of the sound). It is normal for this construction (ὡς introduces a comparison) to drop one or more elements as Paul demonstrates in his translation. Helma Dik might see some significance in the order of the constituents in the genitive chain. This word order (genitive chain interrupted by ὡς) isn't unusual in Attic Tragedy but it would be an eye catcher in NT Greek.
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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by jeidsath »

Ἀθηνᾶ
ἔγνων, Ὀδυσσεῦ, καὶ πάλαι φύλαξ ἔβην
τῇ σῇ πρόθυμος εἰς ὁδὸν κυναγίᾳ.

Knowing this, Odysseus, a long while ago as an eager guard I came to the road where you your hunt lies.
Ὀδυσσεύς
ἦ καί, φίλη δέσποινα, πρὸς καιρὸν πονῶ;

And truly, loving mistress, do I work towards good effect?
Ἀθηνᾶ
ὡς ἔστιν ἀνδρὸς τοῦδε τἄργα ταῦτά σοι.

[Yes,] as from this man the deeds themselves proceed, know you.
Ὀδυσσεύς
καὶ πρὸς τί δυσλόγιστον ὧδ’ ᾖξεν χέρα;

And for what reason did his disordered hand dart thus forth?
Ἀθηνᾶ
χόλῳ βαρυνθεὶς τῶν Ἀχιλλείων ὅπλων.

Burdened by a rage over Achilles' arms.
Ὀδυσσεύς
τί δῆτα ποίμναις τήνδ’ ἐπεμπίπτει βάσιν;

So why upon this track wildly attacking the herders?
Ἀθηνᾶ
δοκῶν ἐν ὑμῖν χεῖρα χραίνεσθαι φόνῳ.

He thought himself among you, anointing his hands in your murders.
Ὀδυσσεύς
ἦ καὶ τὸ βούλευμ’ ὡς ἐπ’ Ἀργείοις τόδ’ ἦν;

And this plan of his was really against the Argives?
Ἀθηνᾶ
κἂν ἐξεπράξατ’, εἰ κατημέλησ’ ἐγώ.

And it would have been accomplished if I had not taken care myself.
Ὀδυσσεύς
ποίαισι τόλμαις ταῖσδε καὶ φρενῶν θράσει;

What sorts are these boldnesses with which he is instructing his courage?
Ἀθηνᾶ
νύκτωρ ἐφ’ ὑμᾶς δόλιος ὁρμᾶται μόνος.

Being crafty by night setting out alone against you.
Ὀδυσσεύς
ἦ καὶ παρέστη κἀπὶ τέρμ’ ἀφίκετο;

And did he come upon his goal?
Ἀθηνᾶ
καὶ δὴ ’πὶ δισσαῖς ἦν στρατηγίσιν πύλαις.

Indeed, and was at the double gates of the generals.
Ὀδυσσεύς
καὶ πῶς ἐπέσχε χεῖρα μαιμῶσαν φόνου;

And how were his hands stopped from eager murder?
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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by mwh »

jeidsath wrote: ὡς εὐμαθές σου, κἂν ἄποπτος ᾖς ὅμως,
thus I easily understand you, and even if you are unseen,
φώνημ’ ἀκούω …
I hear your voice …
ὡς is exclamatory: ὡς εὐμαθές σου … φώνημ’ ακουω, lit. How well-learnt your voice I hear! There’s no “and,” ευμαθες is adjectival (predicative) with φωνημα (as δυσλογιστον with χερα in 40), and κἂν ἄποπτος ᾖς ὅμως (even though you’re invisible) is interposed. The word order is telling, and makes translation more impossible than usual.
The ὅμως after κἂν ἄποπτος ᾖς is an idiomatic ellipse: “even though you’re invisible, nevertheless …” (as we say “still and all …”).

ἰχνεύω πάλαι
I have long tracked until now.
Just “I’ve been tracking a long time.” This is how παλαι works with the present, as I think you understand. 5 παλαι κυνηγετουντα. Cf. e.g. Je le connais depuis longtemps, Lo conosco da lungo tempo versus Eng. I’ve known him a long time.

Paul, Thanks for reporting Finglass. I think he missed a trick there, but it’s a good comment. I wish Greek commentators paid more attention to sound, notoriously problematic though it is.

C. S. Bartholomew wrote: χαλκοστόμου κώδωνος ... τυρσηνικῆς. If you want a category, genitive of source (the source of the sound).
ακουω κωδωνος would be a genitive of source (like ακουω σου), but φωνημα κωδωνος is a subjective genitive (like τους λογους σου). κώδων φωνεῖ.
jeidsath wrote: ἔγνων, Ὀδυσσεῦ, καὶ … Knowing this, Odysseus
You do realise it’s “I knew it”, aor.indic.? Why not so translate? Are you translating just so you can show how you’re construing the Greek—I’d recommend that—or trying to put it into decent English? If the latter, you have to make sure you properly understand the Greek first, and that’s not always clear. You could make better use of Jebb.
ὡς ἔστιν ἀνδρὸς τοῦδε τἄργα ταῦτά σοι.
[Yes,] as from this man the deeds themselves proceed, know you.
Rather [Yes,] since these deeds are this man’s. This use of ως is very common in tragic dialogue.
“these deeds”, not “the deeds themselves” (that would be αυτα).
τί δῆτα ποίμναις τήνδ’ ἐπεμπίπτει βάσιν;
So why upon this track wildly attacking the herders?
Why then did he launch this attack on the sheep-flocks?
τηνδε βασιν cognate accusative, internal to the verb, like to step a step or fall a fall; Soph merges these.
(ᾖξεν χέρα in 40 just above is a bold use of the same construction, I think, pace Jebb and LSJ. ᾖξεν intransitive as usual [cf. κατ’ ἴχνος ᾄσσω 32 above], χερα internal accusative; he made a hand-darting movement. What Finglass?)
For use with a transitive verb (rather than intransitive as here), cf. 21 ἡμᾶς … πρᾶγος ἄσκοπον ἔχει περάνας, double acccusative: ημας is external accusative, πρᾶγος internal, cognate (accomplish a deed ~ do a deed).
κἂν ἐξεπράξατ’, εἰ κατημέλησ’ ἐγώ.
And it would have been accomplished if I had not taken care myself.
ἐξεπράξατ’ middle not passive, “And he’d have carried it out too,”
ἐγώ not “myself” (αὐτή) but emphatic “I
ποίαισι τόλμαις ταῖσδε καὶ φρενῶν θράσει;
What sorts are these boldnesses with which he is instructing his courage?
It’s not at all clear why you translate like this. ποίῳ (and τῷδε) is understood with θράσει.
EDIT. Oh, I get it. You've taken φρενῶν as a participle (but where would that leave και and dative θρασει?). It's gen. of φρένες (as it almost always will be). φρενῶν θράσει gives some specificity to τόλμαις.

In the following lines you render ορμαται with a participle, ignore παρεστη και, and change επεσχε χειρα to passive, among various lesser sins. Similarly throughout. Deliberately or not? Either way it’s distortive. Show some respect! :wink:

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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by C. S. Bartholomew »

jeidsath wrote:εὐθέως δ’ ἐγὼ
κατ’ ἴχνος ᾄσσω, καὶ τὰ μὲν σημαίνομαι,
τὰ δ’ ἐκπέπληγμαι κοὐκ ἔχω μαθεῖν ὅτου.
And I quickly dart along the track, comprehending some, having been perplexed by the rest and not having learned the cause.
The rendering of Tipton seems a little flat.
... and at once I darted off on the trail. Some things I can make out, but by others I am thrown off course, and I cannot discover where he is.
— Lloyd-Jones 1994
... I came right away
and picked up the trail along
with other tracks I don't recognize.
— Tipton 2008
ἐκπέπληγμαι see LSJ renderings for this in other contexts from Sophocles:
drive out of one's senses by a sudden shock, amaze, astound, Od.18.231 (tm.) ; κάλλει καὶ ὥρᾳ διενεγκόντες ἐ. τινάς Aeschin.1.134 ; ὁ φόβος ἐκπλήσσων.. Antipho 2.1.7 ; κακοὶ εὐτυχοῦντες ἐκπλήσσουσί με Trag.Adesp. 465 ; ὅ μ' ἐκπλήσσει λόγου frightens me in speaking, E.Or.549 :— in this sense most freq. in aor. 2 Pass., Ep. ἐξεπλήγην (v. infr.), Att. ἐξεπλάγην [ᾰ] (also aor. I ἐξεπλήχθην Id.Tr.183 : pf. part. ἐκπεπληγμένος A.Pers.290, S.Tr.386, etc.); to be panic-struck, amazed, esp. by fear, ἐκ γὰρ πλήγη φρένας Il.16.403, cf. 13.394 ; ἡνίοχοι ἔκπληγεν 18.225 : c. part., ἐκπεπληγμένον κεῖνον βλέποντες S.OT 922, cf. Ant.433, etc.; ἐκπλαγῆναί τινι to be astonished at a thing, Hdt.1.116, etc. ; ὑπό τινος Id.3.64 ; διά τι Th.7.21 ; ἐπί τινι X.Cyr. 1.4.27 ; πρός τι Plu.Thes.19, etc.: also c.acc., ἐκπλαγῆναί τινα to be struck with panic fear of.., S.Ph.226,El.1045 ; ἡμᾶς δ' ἂν..μάλιστα ἐκπεπληγμένοι εἶεν Th.6.11, cf.3.82.
generally, of any sudden, overpowering passion, to be struck with desire, Ar.Pl.673 ; with love, E.Hipp.38, Med.8 ; χαρᾷ, ἡδονῇ, A.Ch.233, S.Tr.629 ; with admiration, Hdt.3.148, etc.: c.acc.rei, ἐκπλαγέντα τὰ προκείμενα ἀγαθά Id.9.82.
The LSJ citations from Sophocles seem to suggest a psychological state someone more intense than being puzzled by contrary evidence. Tipton and Lloyd-Jones seem to follow the first definitions from LSJ:
strike out of, drive away from, expel, ἐκ δ' ἔπληξέ μου τὴν αἰδῶ A.Pr.134 ; ὃς (sc. κεραυνὸς) αὐτὸν ἐξέπληξε τῶν.. κομπασμάτων ib.362, cf. E.Ion635: abs.,drive away, ἡ τέρψις τὸ λυπηρὸν ἐκπλήσσει Th.2.38 ; φόβος μνήμην ἐ. ib.87.
I wondering if Tipton's treatment masks to some extent a visceral reaction to the carnage that ΟΔΥΣΣΕΥΣ was experiencing. In other words, his response to the situation doesn't seem to be as bland and matter of fact as Tipton presents it. On the other hand, perhaps ΟΔΥΣΣΕΥΣ isn't impressed by the carnage, being a professional killer himself. He just got back from the front, right? I don't know. This is a question.
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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by mwh »

Lloyd-Jones must be reading not ὅτου but ὅπου. With ὅτου it will mean “and I cannot discover whose they are.”

For understanding the Greek use Ll-J not Tipton, who gives only the most general sense (but does so very vigorously and quite effectively, though sacrificing a lot). Ll-J’s translations are extremely accurate—an excellent guide to the meaning of the Greek. Of course they don’t read anything like Sophocles, but what could?

εκπεπληγμαι here used not in its frequent sense of being driven (lit. struck) out of one’s mind—often with φρενῶν—but in a more basic sense, “struck out from" (the σημαινόμενα, the interpretable signs), thrown off course as Ll-J has it. In context it’s straightforward enough, and και ουκ εχω μαθειν amplifies it.
Of course it’s Ajax who has been driven out of his mind, but we don’t yet know that. Perhaps this somehow prepares the way? Both of them have some mental confusion, but Od's more temporary and far less drastic than Ajax's.

Odysseus and the rest are still at Troy (it will be some little while before he gets back home), in the Greek encampment by the shore. He has indeed seen plenty of human carnage, but he is shocked by the inexplicable discovery of the violently butchered livestock (and no doubt he'd been counting on his share). Being Odysseus, he’s quickly on the trail of the perpetrator, who the evidence suggests is Ajax. Now read on.

In the States today is Veterans Day. This might be a suitable moment to remember veterans who have committed suicide and to think of those who will.

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Re: Let's Read: AJAX

Post by jeidsath »

Thank you for all of the comments. On γιγνώσκω aorist, I looked it up in the LSJ because the past tense seemed strange, and I followed the definition there: "come to know, perceive, and in past tenses, know."

But the general point is dead on about getting tenses, voice, etc., right, and I mistook a good deal of the ones that were pointed out. I'll try to be more literal about translating going forward, since we're trying to communicate about language details here.

And for ὅτου, I assumed that it meant something like ἐξ ὅτου -- for what reason. I suppose "of who" makes more sense in context.
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