Hdt 3.59 and meaning of αντι

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Paul Derouda
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Hdt 3.59 and meaning of αντι

Post by Paul Derouda »

3.59.1 παρὰ δὲ Ἑρμιονέων νῆσον ἀντὶ χρημάτων παρέλαβον Ὑδρέην τὴν ἐπὶ Πελοποννήσῳ καὶ αὐτὴν Τροιζηνίοισι παρακατέθεντο· αὐτοὶ δὲ Κυδωνίην τὴν ἐν Κρήτῃ ἔκτισαν, οὐκ ἐπὶ τοῦτο πλέοντες ἀλλὰ Ζακυνθίους ἐξελῶντες ἐκ τῆς νήσου.

Budé and the Landmark edition translate ἀντὶ χρημάτων "contre paiement" and "with this money"; however the Oxford edition says this means that instead of extorting money, they extort the island of Hydrea, that is was another act of piracy commited by the Samians. Which one should I believe?

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Re: Hdt 3.59 and meaning of αντι

Post by Hylander »

Linguistically, I think either interpretation could be justified, but reading this in context--a string of Samian piracies--I suspect that the Oxford commentary is probably right.

Look at παραλαμβανω and αντι in LSJ, and I think you'll see that either interpretation is defensible from a linguistic point of view.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... lamba%2Fnw

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 3Da)nti%2F

A Greek taxi driver told me he did his military service on heavily militarized Samos--the closest point in Greece to Turkey. He told me how much he hated the island--a thousand guys and no girls. The Turks, he claimed, wanted it and would seize it if they could. But as far as he was concerned, he said, they could have it.
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Re: Hdt 3.59 and meaning of αντι

Post by mwh »

I’m sure Hylander's right. Formally it's ambiguous, since αντι could mean either one. Obviously it doesn’t say “with this money”, explicitly referring to money just mentioned (that would require at least the article), but “contre paiement” is certainly possible grammatically: they took an island in exchange for cash, i.e. they paid money for it, they bought it.

But in context it surely means they took the island “instead of money.” Just consider the situation, and look at how the text is structured. καὶ αὐτοὺς (the Siphnians) μετὰ ταῦτα ἑκατὸν τάλαντα ἔπρηξαν. παρὰ δὲ Ἑρμιονέων νῆσον ἀντὶ χρημάτων παρέλαβον. From the fabulously rich Siphnians they exacted 100 talents (a ginormous sum), and from the Hermioneans, who will not have been cash-rich, in lieu of money they took an island.

I have no matching anecdote, but maybe Greeks now feel the same way about Lesbos.

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Re: Hdt 3.59 and meaning of αντι

Post by jeidsath »

Demosthenes uses a similar usage at the beginning of the first Olynthiac:

ἀντὶ πολλῶν χρημάτων ἑλέσθαι

I was going to use it as an example of "to take instead of money," but after reading mwh's post I see that it is ambiguous in the same way.
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Re: Hdt 3.59 and meaning of αντι

Post by Hylander »

ἀντὶ πολλῶν χρημάτων ἑλέσθαι -- "choose instead of much money"

Middle ἑλέσθαι means "choose".

This phrase in context means "put a very high value on". It isn't ambiguous, and ἀντὶ here doesn't convey the notion of an exchange: it just means "instead of". It's equivalent to περι πολλου ποιησασθαι.

As I recall, he's saying something like, "you would put a very high value on knowing the right thing to do in the present circumstances."
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Re: Hdt 3.59 and meaning of αντι

Post by Paul Derouda »

Thanks. I believe you are right, and looking it again once more gives perfect sense. I had difficulties in reading into these lines the meaning given by the translators; something was bothering me. "Contre paiement" is just too dull, mere jargon with no explicit reference to what precedes, i.e. the fact that they just extorted tremendous amounts of money. (But adding the article would make it ungrammatical, no? ἀντὶ τῶν χρημάτων παρέλαβον just sounds wrong to me with ἀντὶ, it can't mean "in exchange for", right?)

Now an anecdote. It has little do with this passage, though, but it also features a Greek taxi driver and acts of extortion. This happened in 2008. It was my first trip to Greece and I'd just arrived with my friend to Athens. We'd taken a bus (I think) from the airport to the center (maybe to the Syntagma square?) and we had to get to our hotel, which wasn't far but too far for us to walk with our luggage. We took a taxi and made the obvious mistake of picking the guy who was advertising his services most aggressively. Immediately after the taxi got going, I notified the driver that the meter wasn't on. "Oh yes it is, no problem, everything is ok, no worries!", he replied, which of course made us suspect we were worried for a reason. The name of our hotel was Philoxenia and it was an ironic twist of fate that the driver spent most of the short time required to get there explaining the meaning of the word to us, how much they, the Greeks valued their guests from abroad. We arrived after a short moment and the driver pushed a magic button on his taximeter. Abracadabra! The display showed 19,97. "It would be 20 euros, please!". (Later on we learned that the proper price would have been maybe 3 euros.) My friend and I looked at each other and were like "what?", but we were too tired to argue with him, so we decided to pay. I handed the guy a 20 euro bill. He took it, and in the blink of an eye, turned it magically into a 5 euro bill. Usually I'm much too slow-witted and naive for this sort of situation, but by that time I'd understood what a πανοῦργος he was and got it immediately. Before he had the time to open his mouth I said that I'd given him 20 not 5 euros, don't you try. He was all smiles and handshakes and told us "No no, I wanted to give you 5 euros back, because you are my friends, philoxenia, you know!"

Needless to say I've been wary of Greek taxi drivers since then, but I haven't met another dishonest one yet.

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Re: Hdt 3.59 and meaning of αντι

Post by mwh »

But αντι can mean “in exchange for,” and των would not make it ungrammatical. I’ve just looked up LSJ, and the first two examples of this meaning (III.3) are Il.24.254 and this very passage. Great though my respect for LSJ is, I still think it means “instead of” here, the money being not what the Samians gave but what they might have tried to take.

As to your anecdote, I can only say that both these behaviors are second nature to Neapolitan taxi drivers, and first nature to those in Cairo and in Mexico City. No Greek taxi driver has ever cheated me—or not to my knowledge, which may not be the same thing—and my only Greek taxi driver anecdote dates from the time when Maggie Thatcher was the British prime minister. The driver was passionately scornful that the British had elected a woman to lead the country. He was practically spitting. That’s the one and only time I found myself defending Thatcher.

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Re: Hdt 3.59 and meaning of αντι

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The cabdriver I mentioned earlier was not actually driving a cab for us--he was driving a rented van supplied by a travel company that two of my oldest friends (since 1960), their wives and I engaged for our tour of Greece in 2011. We paid for a package deal that included transportation and lodgings (and we were extremely satisfied with the cost and the arrangements), so this driver didn't have an opportunity to swindle us, but I like to think he wouldn't have done so even if he had had the opportunity. He drove us on the last leg of our trip, from Nafplio via Corinth to the Piraeus, where we boarded a ferry to Aegina, and then the next day from the ferry to the airport. He spoke very good English. I sat in the front seat, and we entertained one another with stories of our experiences in our respective armies. "The Turks want Samos, and as far as I'm concerned, they can have it."

Our driver for the earlier part of the trip was also quite congenial, and much more knowledgeable than I would have expected, and he was the most avid photographer among us. These two drivers really contributed to our tour. Incredibly, both were non-smokers! I don't want to leave the impression that Athenian cabdrivers are all swindlers, as I still remember Vasili and Niko warmly.
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Re: Hdt 3.59 and meaning of αντι

Post by Paul Derouda »

I've taken a taxi in Greek many times after the first one, and was never cheated again. The swindler was, however, my first impression of Greece. That sort of thing can happen anywhere though. A Marseille cabdriver did (successfully) the same "you gave me the wrong banknote" trick to my grandmother in the 90's, which is probably why I wasn't fooled when it happened to me. She wasn't a tourist though, she was coming back home from the airport.

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Re: Hdt 3.59 and meaning of αντι

Post by Bart »

Regarding the new OCT: what has changed since the previous edition? I mean, is there new material to go from (recently discovered manuscripts, papyrus etc.) or is it mainly a reevaluation of old material?
And to echo Paul's remark, is there any reason for a non-academic reader of Herodotus to purchase the new OCT?

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Re: Hdt 3.59 and meaning of αντι

Post by mwh »

I expect the intro gives some indication. Try Google Books? As I say, I haven’t yet seen it. There are a good number of papyri, and significant progress has been made in the last 100-plus years, but I think nothing that drastically changes the meaning of the text for the ordinary reader. Unless you're interested in the state of the text and its history I see no need to rush out and acquire the new OCT or its companion. That's why I only reported their existence "for the record." But it's always a good idea to use the best text available, and the new OCT will undoubtedly be it.

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