contracted vs uncontracted
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contracted vs uncontracted
Hi to all!
I am wondering what the difference is between the contracted form and the uncontracted form of a verb is. For example, love:
φιλῶ (uncontracted = φιλέ-ω) ω like o in bone ἀγαπῶ (uncontracted = ἀγαπάω)
φιλεῖς (uncontracted =φιλέ-εις) ς like s in send ἀγαπᾷς (uncontracted = ἀγαπάεις)
φιλεῖ (uncontracted =φιλέ-ει) ει like ei in eight ἀγαπᾷ (uncontracted = ἀγαπάει)
Is the uncontracted part '-ω, -εις, ει' just the personal pronoun, equivalent to 'I, thou, he'?
Another question if I may: Under this link
http://www.verbix.com/webverbix/go.php? ... F%8D%CF%89
in the section 'Passive Aorist' there are 2 sections with this name. Both contain sections with the Headings 'Conjunctive' and 'Optative'. Why is this? Is there some mistake?
For example under Conjunctive there is
λυ-θώ
λυ-θής
λυ-θή
λυ-θώμεν
λυ-θήτε
λυ-θώσι(ν)
but also, in the next section:
λε-λυ-μένος ώ
λε-λυ-μένη ής
λε-λυ-μένον ή
λε-λυ-μένοι ώμεν
λε-λυ-μέναι ήτε
λε-λυ-μένα ώσι(ν
Thanks in advance for any tips!
I am wondering what the difference is between the contracted form and the uncontracted form of a verb is. For example, love:
φιλῶ (uncontracted = φιλέ-ω) ω like o in bone ἀγαπῶ (uncontracted = ἀγαπάω)
φιλεῖς (uncontracted =φιλέ-εις) ς like s in send ἀγαπᾷς (uncontracted = ἀγαπάεις)
φιλεῖ (uncontracted =φιλέ-ει) ει like ei in eight ἀγαπᾷ (uncontracted = ἀγαπάει)
Is the uncontracted part '-ω, -εις, ει' just the personal pronoun, equivalent to 'I, thou, he'?
Another question if I may: Under this link
http://www.verbix.com/webverbix/go.php? ... F%8D%CF%89
in the section 'Passive Aorist' there are 2 sections with this name. Both contain sections with the Headings 'Conjunctive' and 'Optative'. Why is this? Is there some mistake?
For example under Conjunctive there is
λυ-θώ
λυ-θής
λυ-θή
λυ-θώμεν
λυ-θήτε
λυ-θώσι(ν)
but also, in the next section:
λε-λυ-μένος ώ
λε-λυ-μένη ής
λε-λυ-μένον ή
λε-λυ-μένοι ώμεν
λε-λυ-μέναι ήτε
λε-λυ-μένα ώσι(ν
Thanks in advance for any tips!
- seneca2008
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Re: contracted vs uncontracted
In general, contracted forms of verbs are used in attic literature. Goodwin 784-785 explains the cases where contracted verbs are also used in Homer and Herodotus and other dialects.
There is a confusion of terminology here. φιλέω is uncontracted, φιλῶ contracted, ω is the personal ending. Its not right to call the ending "just the personal pronoun". I hope this doesn't seem too pedantic.
I looked at the table of λύω. In the first section called aorist passive the "Conjunctive" (which I call subjunctive) is incorrectly accented. It should be as follows
λυθῶ
λυθῇς
λυθῇ
λυθῶμεν
λυθῆτε
λυθῶσι
The "conjunctive" in the second section is a garbled version of the "conjunctive" middle voice perfect. This should be constructed from the perfect participle plus the "conjunctive" (subjunctive) of εἰμί. (ὦ ᾖς ᾖ ὦμεν ἦτε ὦσι omitting the dual).
I wouldn't trust any automatic conjugator although perhaps others have experience of programs that work. Much safer to use Smyth or Goodwin. The paradigm for λύω is set out very clearly in paragraph 480 of Goodwin.
(edited because I actually had Goodwin and not Smyth to hand)
Is the uncontracted part '-ω, -εις, ει' just the personal pronoun, equivalent to 'I, thou, he'?
There is a confusion of terminology here. φιλέω is uncontracted, φιλῶ contracted, ω is the personal ending. Its not right to call the ending "just the personal pronoun". I hope this doesn't seem too pedantic.
I looked at the table of λύω. In the first section called aorist passive the "Conjunctive" (which I call subjunctive) is incorrectly accented. It should be as follows
λυθῶ
λυθῇς
λυθῇ
λυθῶμεν
λυθῆτε
λυθῶσι
The "conjunctive" in the second section is a garbled version of the "conjunctive" middle voice perfect. This should be constructed from the perfect participle plus the "conjunctive" (subjunctive) of εἰμί. (ὦ ᾖς ᾖ ὦμεν ἦτε ὦσι omitting the dual).
I wouldn't trust any automatic conjugator although perhaps others have experience of programs that work. Much safer to use Smyth or Goodwin. The paradigm for λύω is set out very clearly in paragraph 480 of Goodwin.
(edited because I actually had Goodwin and not Smyth to hand)
Last edited by seneca2008 on Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.
- Paul Derouda
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Re: contracted vs uncontracted
English and French, among other languages, use the term "subjunctive", while in German and in countries with historically strong cultural ties to Germany the term "conjunctive" is usually used. They are the same thing.
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Re: contracted vs uncontracted
Seneca is right, but just to make sure Pedroski understands:
λυθῶ is aorist conjunctive (or subjunctive} passive.
λελυμένος ὦ is perfect conjunctive (or subjunctive) middle or passive.
The perfect conjunctive (subjunctive) middle is formed periphrastically from the perfect middle participle + present subjunctive of εἰμί.
The cite to Smyth should be sec. 385:
λυθῶ is aorist conjunctive (or subjunctive} passive.
λελυμένος ὦ is perfect conjunctive (or subjunctive) middle or passive.
The perfect conjunctive (subjunctive) middle is formed periphrastically from the perfect middle participle + present subjunctive of εἰμί.
The cite to Smyth should be sec. 385:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 99.04.0007Attic prose always, and Attic poetry usually, use the contracted forms.
N. 1.—The open forms of verbs in -αω are sometimes found in Homer. Verbs in -εω often show the uncontracted forms in Homer; in Herodotus contraction properly takes place except before ο and ω. Verbs in -οω never appear in their uncontracted forms in any author.
N. 2.—ποιέω sometimes loses its ι (43) except before ο sounds.
Last edited by Hylander on Thu Jan 28, 2016 5:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Bill Walderman
- seneca2008
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Re: contracted vs uncontracted
@hylander Thanks as you see I had edited my post because I realised I was using Goodwin not Smyth! So many books on my desk... such confusion.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.
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Re: contracted vs uncontracted
For “aorist” read “perfect.” (And of course it’s much more often passive than middle.)λελυμένος ὦ is aorist conjunctive (or subjunctive) middle.
The aorist conjunctive (subjunctive) middle is formed periphrastically from the perfect middle participle + present subjunctive of εἰμί.
—But the main message for Pedroski is DO NOT USE THAT SITE. It’s full of all sorts of falsehoods.
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Re: contracted vs uncontracted
Oops. Sorry, I edited my post. I was in a hurry and focusing on the middle/passive distinction.
Bill Walderman
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Re: contracted vs uncontracted
Thank you very much! Don't trust verbix, at least as far as Greek is concerned. I get the messsage.
I'm China, Nanjing. I do not have easy access to a good library. There is no Department of Classics anywhere near here.
Do you know of, can you recommend, a website where I might find the proper inflection table for lyo or other Greek verbs?
I'm China, Nanjing. I do not have easy access to a good library. There is no Department of Classics anywhere near here.
Do you know of, can you recommend, a website where I might find the proper inflection table for lyo or other Greek verbs?
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Re: contracted vs uncontracted
Several of the Greek Grammar books available on this Textkit site will give you what you want. Go to the Home page, where they're listed.
For verb tables I'd recommend W.G. Rutherford's book on "Accidence," downloadable as a pdf. You'll find luw on pp. 66-79.
Enjoy!
For verb tables I'd recommend W.G. Rutherford's book on "Accidence," downloadable as a pdf. You'll find luw on pp. 66-79.
Enjoy!
- seneca2008
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Re: contracted vs uncontracted
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.
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Re: contracted vs uncontracted
Thank very much. I also found this page, which I copied into a table and I got rid of the verbix.com table.
Does this link seem accurate?
http://classics.uchicago.edu/files/luw.pdf
Does this link seem accurate?
http://classics.uchicago.edu/files/luw.pdf
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Re: contracted vs uncontracted
That looks fine to me, and very handily set out. And the note at the foot is good.
The Eton software project linked by seneca2008 looks a splendid resource. (It’s new to me.) I think it deserves a place on our Home page.
The Eton software project linked by seneca2008 looks a splendid resource. (It’s new to me.) I think it deserves a place on our Home page.