"Αλλως τε μεντοι" Plato Apology 35d1

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AlexEmp
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"Αλλως τε μεντοι" Plato Apology 35d1

Post by AlexEmp »

Hi. I'm having some difficulty understanding the nuances of this combination of particles in this sentence of the Apology:

μὴ οὖν ἀξιοῦτέ με, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, τοιαῦτα δεῖν πρὸς ὑμᾶς πράττειν ἃ μήτε ἡγοῦμαι καλὰ εἶναι μήτε δίκαια μήτε ὅσια, ἄλλως τε μέντοι νὴ Δία πάντως καὶ ἀσεβείας φεύγοντα ὑπὸ Μελήτου τουτουΐ.

I've checked Denniston, who merely says that this usage is extremely rare. Any help would be appreciated!

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Re: "Αλλως τε μεντοι" Plato Apology 35d1

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Re: "Αλλως τε μεντοι" Plato Apology 35d1

Post by seneca2008 »

There is a parallel passage in the clouds 1269. Dover simply refers to your Plato passage and Denniston.

In Greek Syntax: Early Greek Poetic and Herodotean Syntax, Volume 3 (Guy L. Cooper, Karl Wilhelm Krüger) p 3041) we have:

"τε μέντοι .... [is] rare or relatively rare, and must be perhaps considered incidental having no established idiomatic sense of [its] own as distinguished from that of the sum of [its] constituent parts.:"

This translation from Thomas West's Plato's Apology seems to capture as much as can be achieved in English.

"So do not deem that I, men of Athens, should practice such
things before you which I hold to be neither noble nor just nor
pious, and certainly, by Zeus, above all not when I am being prosecuted for impiety by Meletus here."
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: "Αλλως τε μεντοι" Plato Apology 35d1

Post by Hylander »

ἄλλως τε μέντοι νὴ Δία πάντως καὶ ἀσεβείας φεύγοντα ὑπὸ Μελήτου τουτουΐ

ἄλλως τε . . . καὶ here means "otherwise . . . and [especially] being prosecuted for asebeia by this Meletus person" (the deictic τουτουΐ is contemptuous).

αλλως τε και/αλλοι τε και is a common idiom that usually translates "especially". (In English, "others" or "otherwise" isn't needed.)

Thus, τε μέντοι is not a unit in itself. μέντοι νὴ Δία πάντως makes ἄλλως τε very emphatic: something like "in all circumstances, mind you, by Zeus, and [especially] [now that I'm] being prosecuted for asebeia by this Meletus character.
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Re: "Αλλως τε μεντοι" Plato Apology 35d1

Post by seneca2008 »

Thus, τε μέντοι is not a unit in itself.
This is how I took it at first before I looked at Cooper and Krüger and Dover on Clouds. I havent looked at Denniston but AlexEmp said he merely notes it is rare.

Yet another piece of Greek I dont understand!
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: "Αλλως τε μεντοι" Plato Apology 35d1

Post by Hylander »

"Yet another piece of Greek I don't understand!"

I don't mean to be condescending, since you obviously know Greek quite well, but of course you understand this--it really doesn't pose any great difficulty once you recognize that ἄλλως τε . . . καὶ fits together as a regular Greek idiom, and that μέντοι νὴ Δία πάντως give emphasis to ἄλλως τε. I think that in this case your quote from Cooper hits the nail on its head here: τε μέντοι has "no established idiomatic sense of [its] own as distinguished from that of the sum of [its] constituent parts".

As you read this, ἄλλως τε should set up an instinctive expectation of an eventual καὶ.
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Re: "Αλλως τε μεντοι" Plato Apology 35d1

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Re: "Αλλως τε μεντοι" Plato Apology 35d1

Post by Paul Derouda »

MarkAntony198337 wrote:@Hylander, I remember that the great writer Thomas De Quincey denounced most of the Greek particles as being mere colloquial expletives, and likened the constant use of αρα, γε, etc., in Plato, to the manner of "an ancient father of his valley in Westmoreland" who, when asked how far it is to the nearest town, might reply with something like, "Why like, it's gaily nigh like, to four mile like"! Of course he was incorrect, but that so great a mind should have been so wrong about the matter goes to show that the Greek particles are a very tricky business indeed!
But is there a fundamental difference between the two, except that English like is considered colloquial? I haven't studied the question, but I suppose that in part the fact that English doesn't have such a variety of different particles is due to intonation playing a very important role to convey the same sort of nuances.

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Re: "Αλλως τε μεντοι" Plato Apology 35d1

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Re: "Αλλως τε μεντοι" Plato Apology 35d1

Post by jeidsath »

I was a bit confused by the idea that the LSJ would ever give such a piece of tanslationese for a definition until I looked it up and saw that the LSJ has "both otherwise and" without the so.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: "Αλλως τε μεντοι" Plato Apology 35d1

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Re: "Αλλως τε μεντοι" Plato Apology 35d1

Post by jeidsath »

Assuming the online versions are accurate (a big assumption and I'm not at home) Middle Liddel has the so, but not the Great Scott. I see what they're trying to say, but it's translationese.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: "Αλλως τε μεντοι" Plato Apology 35d1

Post by Hylander »

I didn't mean to suggest that each of the separate elements of the phrase μέντοι νὴ Δία πάντως doesn't have a meaning in itself or that the entire phrase merely adds emphasis--rather, I was trying to isolate the idiom ἄλλως τε . . . καί, which belongs together as a unit. Certainly πάντως means something like "in all circumstances" or "in every aspect of life". μέντοι and νὴ Δία perhaps have a less precise function and veer towards being merely emphatic.
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Re: "Αλλως τε μεντοι" Plato Apology 35d1

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Re: "Αλλως τε μεντοι" Plato Apology 35d1

Post by Hylander »

I should have noted that the word to which μέντοι and νὴ Δία add emphasis is not ἄλλως but πάντως. It's hard to translate this because "otherwise" (for ἄλλως) is superfluous in the English idiom. "in every circumstance--mind you, by Zeus, in all circumstances--and particularly now that I'm being prosecuted for asebeia by this Meletus here. "
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Re: "Αλλως τε μεντοι" Plato Apology 35d1

Post by seneca2008 »

I don't mean to be condescending, since you obviously know Greek quite well, but of course you understand this
I have always found your posts interesting, helpful and often amusing, never condescending.

I am loath to prolong this thread, but my exasperation was that I was influenced to take τε μέντοι as a syntactic unit by Cooper and Dover. It seemed to me perverse of those authors, particularly Cooper (and also perhaps Denniston) to list it as a rare combination albeit with a description that it has "no established idiomatic sense of [its] own as distinguished from that of the sum of [its] constituent parts." In my mind there is a contradiction in listing τε μέντοι as a syntactic unit only to say effectively it isnt. I worry at such times whether I understand the issue at all.

MarkAnthony, I dont understand what you mean by your remark " I was simply asking pardon for @seneca2008's remark that he had had difficulty with the Greek!" Nor do I ask you to explain it. But rest assured if I need to beg pardon for anything I will do so most fulsomely.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: "Αλλως τε μεντοι" Plato Apology 35d1

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Re: "Αλλως τε μεντοι" Plato Apology 35d1

Post by seneca2008 »

ἷξον δ᾽ ἐς πεδίον πυρηφόρον, ἔνθα δ᾽ ἔπειτα
ἦνον ὁδόν: τοῖον γὰρ ὑπέκφερον ὠκέες ἵπποι.
δύσετό τ᾽ ἠέλιος σκιόωντό τε πᾶσαι ἀγυιαί.

Sufficient comment I think.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: "Αλλως τε μεντοι" Plato Apology 35d1

Post by Hylander »

One last effort at translation (sort of):

"ἄλλως τε--[no, not just ἄλλως], mind you, πάντως goddamit!--and especially now that I'm under indictment for profanity by this here Meletus person. "

μέντοι νὴ Δία πάντως interrupts the usual idiom ἄλλως τε καὶ to stress that it's not just "in other circumstances" but "in all circumstances" that Socrates avoids doing ἃ μήτε ἡγοῦμαι καλὰ εἶναι μήτε δίκαια μήτε ὅσια. Perhaps μέντοι νὴ Δία πάντως should be set off by dashes. The collocation of τε and μέντοι is purely fortuitous and has no independent significance.

The homoteleuton ἄλλως/πάντως contributes to the rhetorical efficacy of this point.
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Re: "Αλλως τε μεντοι" Plato Apology 35d1

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Re: "Αλλως τε μεντοι" Plato Apology 35d1

Post by Hylander »

"the noun to be supplied in the case both of ἄλλως and of πάντως is reasons,"

With respect, I don't see this in the Greek. The common idiom ἄλλως τε καὶ which these words build on doesn't normally imply motivation exclusively. ἄλλως and πάντως are both vague and general. There is no Greek word to be supplied here beyond the two adverbs.

In translating this into English, "otherwise" could stand for ἄλλως, but it's necessary to "supply" some word with πάντως, since "everywise" isn't an English word. An English translation should capture the homoteleuton -ως in some fashion.

I used the word "circumstances" for both adverbs, which I felt is vague enough to convey the vagueness of ἄλλως and πάντως, and followed up with a temporal phrase to fill out the participle in a way that matches "circumstances." (I took some puerile liberties with the rest, for which I hope you'll indulge me.) Of course, "circumstances" certainly encompasses motivation ("because"), but I don't see anything in the Greek to limit the sense to motivation.
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Re: "Αλλως τε μεντοι" Plato Apology 35d1

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Re: "Αλλως τε μεντοι" Plato Apology 35d1

Post by mwh »

In the common idiom αλλως τε και (lit. “both otherhow and”), the αλλως τε serves as foil to whatever follows the και. Here αλλως(τε) is intensified first by μεντοι νη Δια and then by παντως, and only then do we get the και.

I disagree with Hylander only when he says that the intervening μέντοι νὴ Δία emphasizes not ἄλλως but πάντως and that μέντοι νὴ Δία πάντως could be set off by dashes. μέντοι cannot initiate a phrase, it has to relate to what precedes it, i.e. the word that μέντοι νὴ Δία is emphasizing is not πάντως but ἄλλως.

Turns out Plato is quite fond of μέντοι νὴ Δία, e.g.:
Πολλὴ μέντοι νὴ Δία (Phd.68b )
Μυρία μέντοι νὴ Δία, ἔφη ὁ Σιμμίας (73d )
Ἀληθῆ μέντοι νὴ Δία λέγεις, ὦ Νικία (Lach.194d)
Ἄμεινον μέντοι νὴ Δία (Ion 531d)
(These would fall under LSJ's μέν B.II.4.b.) All these and others like them are in duologue and pick up on something the other party has just said, in strong affirmation of it. (Usually I imagine it’s said by someone giving wholehearted assent to a proposition before the unwelcome implications are slowly and painfully made clear to him.) The only difference in the Apology instance is that here the expression does not come directly after the first echoing word of an interlocutor’s utterance, but after ἄλλως τε within Socrates' own utterance. But it’s comparable. Socrates is himself affirming the truth of what he's just said about not doing unholy things, before explaining about the charge of ασεβεια. If we want dashes anywhere we could put one in front of ἄλλως τε. Then πάντως intensifies ἄλλως by universalizing it (he doesn’t under any circumstances do things he considers non-οσια). Then we continue with the usual καί.

Hope this makes sense.

(Edited for clarity)

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