two new learners - ancient and koine
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two new learners - ancient and koine
Hello all. My father and I have decided to start learning Greek together; we are both starting from scratch. His goal is to read the New Testament, my goal is Homer, Plato, etc. I have done some reading about ancient vs. attic vs. koine, but my question here is this: with koine being a kind of 'subset' of ancient/attic, it seems logical that we start with that to cover both of our goals. However, will I be doing him a large disservice by going through the extra pain of learning things he may never use?
Put another way: if he will be learning only, say, 20% extra by going ancient to koine, then this seems like an okay compromise. If, on the other hand, he could attain his reading comprehension goals for the NT in a year, whereas going the ancient first route it would take him two years, this seems less okay to me.
Have you any thoughts?
Put another way: if he will be learning only, say, 20% extra by going ancient to koine, then this seems like an okay compromise. If, on the other hand, he could attain his reading comprehension goals for the NT in a year, whereas going the ancient first route it would take him two years, this seems less okay to me.
Have you any thoughts?
- seneca2008
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Re: two new learners - ancient and koine
I suggest you read this thread first. http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-foru ... f=2&t=3251
I think it makes sense to me to learn attic and then have a fuller understanding of greek which you can deploy to read the NT or Homer. If you learn attic you wont have learned anything which isnt helpful or interesting. Learning something with another person is always more attractive, so you should both learn the same dialect.Your father will then have the option of reading something other than the NT and also being able to appreciate how the NT differs in style from classical greek. I find the NT quite boring but I see people have have their reasons for wanting to read it.
I think it makes sense to me to learn attic and then have a fuller understanding of greek which you can deploy to read the NT or Homer. If you learn attic you wont have learned anything which isnt helpful or interesting. Learning something with another person is always more attractive, so you should both learn the same dialect.Your father will then have the option of reading something other than the NT and also being able to appreciate how the NT differs in style from classical greek. I find the NT quite boring but I see people have have their reasons for wanting to read it.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.
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Re: two new learners - ancient and koine
ἀπόλλυται
Last edited by MarkAntony198337 on Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: two new learners - ancient and koine
There's no harm in reading the New Testament in Greek once you've worked your way through a textbook (or even before you finish). You may have already know much of it in translation, and that might help you accumulate vocabulary in the initial stages of learning. But in learning the language I think it would be best to start with Attic Greek, which will serve you well in reading the NT. In other words, I'd recommend against starting with a textbook that purports to teach "New Testament Greek" (there's really no such thing--there's koine Greek, and then there's the Greek of the individual authors of the NT, who differ among themselves).
In the koine period (say, 3rd c. BCE and later), a number of changes, mostly simplifications, occurred. In particular, the optative mood declined and eventually dropped out of the language. For Attic and Homeric Greek, though, you need to be familiar with the optative, and I believe there may be a few instances in the NT. It's better to learn this mood and other Attic usages when you start rather than playing catch-up when you move from the NT to earlier texts.
In the koine period (say, 3rd c. BCE and later), a number of changes, mostly simplifications, occurred. In particular, the optative mood declined and eventually dropped out of the language. For Attic and Homeric Greek, though, you need to be familiar with the optative, and I believe there may be a few instances in the NT. It's better to learn this mood and other Attic usages when you start rather than playing catch-up when you move from the NT to earlier texts.
Bill Walderman
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Re: two new learners - ancient and koine
ἀπόλλυται
Last edited by MarkAntony198337 on Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:09 am, edited 3 times in total.
- seneca2008
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Re: two new learners - ancient and koine
As the Spartans replied "if".If a person, by his study of the New Testament, learns a large amount of vocabulary, with much of it a crucial part of the language; most of the forms of the Greek verb, a large number of the most important irregular verbs, (allowing, of course, that some of these differ from those of the classical era in their forms,) and gains an actual reading knowledge of ancient Greek texts, then I should say that all that is pretty good going.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.
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Re: two new learners - ancient and koine
Most of my reading is Xenophon's Anabasis. However, this is part because have worked so long on this (despite its reputation) very difficult text, I think it best to stick with it. If I was starting from scratch I think I would first master Koine. If you can really get a feel for that dialect then that will be a good foundation for going on to Attic later.
A possible danger with Koine is that if you know the Bible stories well it is possible to wing it and think you are reading when in fact you are merely being reminded of what you know. A way of avoiding that pitfall is read someone like Chariton who is likely to new for you.
If you have someone to work with that is a big advantage so choosing something that will keep your father happy seems to me to be worth doing.
A possible danger with Koine is that if you know the Bible stories well it is possible to wing it and think you are reading when in fact you are merely being reminded of what you know. A way of avoiding that pitfall is read someone like Chariton who is likely to new for you.
If you have someone to work with that is a big advantage so choosing something that will keep your father happy seems to me to be worth doing.
λονδον
- swtwentyman
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Re: two new learners - ancient and koine
While I second that having a co-learner to push you on and to hold you accountable is a good thing, you should plan beforehand what to do in case your father drops out (or to keep him going if you drop out). I don't mean to jinx you but this is the obvious (not so obvious?) correllary that you should prepare for.
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Re: two new learners - ancient and koine
Thanks to all for the good suggestions. I'll be talking with my father today or tomorrow and will bring these up.
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Re: two new learners - ancient and koine
You may want to look into Beginning Greek: A Functional Approach by Stephen Paine. This is a book that teaches both Koine and Attic, beginning with the Gospel of John and moving on to the Anabasis in later chapters.