problem with Alexander Waugh Young's account of Hastings

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daivid
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problem with Alexander Waugh Young's account of Hastings

Post by daivid »

I down loaded The tutorial Greek reader by Alexander Waugh Young a few days ago while most of it is extracts from easier writers like Strabo in includes also an account of the Battle of Hastings.

His reasoning is that in Xenophon and Thucydides there does not exist continuous sections of prose so he to the sentences he considered to be easy enough for beginners and using them as templates he patched them together into the account Hastings.

I really do like the idea. However, he does not provide a translation so even though I do not doubt it is easier than a comparable chunk of Xenophon it too hard for me and there is not a translation for me to check where I might be going wrong.

I was defeated by the second sentence but now rereading the first I realize I don't even understand that one. Here is the sentence and my two attempts to understand it:

τελευτήσαντος Έδβάρδου, τοῦ ἁγίου ἐπικαλουμένου, διεδέξατο τὴν ἀρχὴν Ἅρολδος ὁ Γοδβίννου, ἀνὴρ μὲν ὢν βασιλικώτατός τε φάσει καὶ ἀντὶ μεγάλων εὐεργεσιῶν τῆς πόλεως ἀξιώτατος δοκῶν εἶναι τῆς ἀρχῆς, νῦν δὲ ὅμως οὐ μέλλων ἀμαχεί γε βασιλεύσειν.

on Edward (named the holy) dying, Harold Godwin a man being the most kingly plus by nature in respect of his good works of the state the most deserving he was deemed to be to take power, now however he was not going to without battle to secure rulership

on Edward (named the holy) dying, Harold Godwin a man being the most kingly plus by nature in comparison with the gentlemen of the state the most deserving he was deemed to be to take power, now however he was not going to without battle to secure rulership.

In this sentence does μὲν mean indeed?
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seneca2008
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Re: problem with Alexander Waugh Young's account of Hastings

Post by seneca2008 »

τελευτήσαντος Έδβάρδου, τοῦ ἁγίου ἐπικαλουμένου,
gen absolute best translated as "when Edward died.."
διεδέξατο τὴν ἀρχὴν
διαδέχομαι : succeed to (the kingdom)

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/mor ... ek#lexicon

where "μέν" is unanswered as here it is assertive, thus L&S "I. μέν used absolutely to express certainty, not followed by correlative δέ, indeed, of a truth, synonymous with μήν, as appears from the Ep. and Ion. form ἦ μέν in protestations and oaths " So perhaps " a man, indeed, most kinglike"
ἀντὶ μεγάλων εὐεργεσιῶν
Here ἀντὶ is "compared to" EDIT Hylander is correct here, so ignore my comment. I was mislead by your reading of μεγάλων εὐεργεσιῶν. I should have thought about it a bit more.
ἀξιώτατος δοκῶν εἶναι τῆς ἀρχῆς
Take ἀξιώτατος and τῆς ἀρχῆς closely together "most worthy of power"
νῦν δὲ ὅμως οὐ μέλλων ἀμαχεί γε βασιλεύσειν.
ἀμαχεί is here an adverb without resistance take οὐ μέλλων and βασιλεύσειν closely together, "not likely to be..".

Is that enough to help you sort it out?
Last edited by seneca2008 on Fri May 13, 2016 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: problem with Alexander Waugh Young's account of Hastings

Post by Hylander »

φάσει should be φύσει.

ὁ Γοδβίννου -- the son of Godwin

I don't think it's accurate to ask what μὲν "means": better to think of it in terms of the structure of the Greek. I don't think μὲν is unanswered here -- it sets up a contrast between the first participial phrase (ὢν . . . καὶ . . . δοκῶν) and the participial phrase νῦν δὲ . . .οὐ μέλλων . . . .

Loosely, translating with participles:

"being most kinglike and seeming to be the most worthy of the kingship, but as it was (νῦν δὲ, "as it was," better than "now") nevertheless not being about to rule without a fight."

You've translated ἀξιώτατος δοκῶν εἶναι τῆς ἀρχῆς as "the most deserving he was deemed to be to take power," but δοκῶν is parallel to ὢν, which you've translated "being the most kingly", and so should be translated by a participle, too--something like "seeming to be".

ὢν βασιλικώτατός τε φύσει
καὶ ἀντὶ μεγάλων εὐεργεσιῶν τῆς πόλεως ἀξιώτατος δοκῶν εἶναι τῆς ἀρχῆς --

"both being most kingly by nature and seeming to be most deserving of the throne on account of his good works but . . ."

However, better translate into readable English with relative clauses: "a man who was most kinglike and seemed to be most worthy of the kingship on account of his good works, but who nevertheless wasn't going to rule without a fight"

ἀντὶ -- literally, "in exchange for"; a corresponding English idiom that preserves the underlying commercial metaphor would be "on account of".
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seneca2008
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Re: problem with Alexander Waugh Young's account of Hastings

Post by seneca2008 »

I will post here rather than littering my post with corrections.

Hylander is of course right μὲν is not unanswered and the δὲ appears right at the end. Careless again!
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: problem with Alexander Waugh Young's account of Hastings

Post by daivid »

Thanks to both of you for the pointers - now it clear. My key mistake was misunderstanding δοκῶν which I thought I understood and so it was difficult for me to spot where I was going wrong. I also especially appreciate ἀντὶ being defined as "in exchange for" - sort of obvious if you know but I would never have got there on my own.

Very much appreciated.
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