Ajax 1-200

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mwh
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Re: Ajax 1-200

Post by mwh »

OK, to show my good will, let me be the kind soul in question.

επ-εμ-πίπτει, like εμ-πίπτει, would take a dative (εμπιπτει “falls on,” επεμ- combining “against” with “on”, making it hostile, an attack). The construction remains the same when an internal accusative is added to the verb, as here (τηνδε βασιν).

So we’re back once more to internal accusatives. If the verb επεμπιπτει took a direct object, that would be an external accusative. The verb happens to take dative (because of the εν- prefix), but that’s the only difference. τηνδε επεμπιπτει βασιν “he launches this attack” (let’s say; lit. “he this-step-attacks”), ποιμνιαις “on the flocks.”

It’s like e.g. αυτους τηνδε την παιδείαν ἐπαίδευσεν (“he gave them this education,” “he educated them in this way”), except that here the verb takes dative (ποιμναις) not accusative (αυτους). And of course τηνδε την παιδειαν επαιδευσεν is a much more prosaic expression than τηνδε βασιν επεμπιπτει, which strikes me as typically Sophoclean.

So your first question does not really admit of a good answer in the either/or form in which you ask it. But to answer in terms of what “modifies” what: τηνδε βασιν modifies επεμπιπτει, while ποιμναις modifies the whole expression τηνδ’ επεμπιπτει βασιν.

Any clearer?

Your second query is irrelevant to this verse and it’s unclear what you mean by “a common noun like βάσιν.” You do very occasionally find datives modifying nouns, but not normally. Datives without prepositions should be referred to verbs or verbal expressions, as here. In your lingo that would make them adverbial, though a noun cannot be an adverb, a different part of speech, and I wouldn't say it can "function" as one either (except in fixed usages such as τέλος "finally).

As to your edit, nouns function as nouns, not as adjectives. στρατηγίς is the sort of formation that could be either an adjective or a noun. Here it’s an adjective, as it almost always is. It’s dative only because πυλαις is dative; the case is immaterial.
δισσαις στρατηγισιν πυλαις is a portmanteau kind of expression. We are to think of two commanders, not two gates. Strict word-by-word grammatical analysis is not always up the job of explaining poetic expressions.

Hope this helps.

Edit. This crossed with your follow-up post, which I’ve just seen. I wouldn’t have thought you ought to feel you should withdraw entirely. It’s true that when seneca in his original post said he wanted to go slowly and carefully he might not have meant quite this slowly and carefully, but your questions are far from “impertinent” and may help others here reach a clearer understanding of tricky things that might otherwise escape attention.
I’ll leave it to seneca to say what he thinks, but for myself, I don’t see why you shouldn’t continue here. Textkit is as much for you as it is for anyone else, and unless and until moderators step in, you're free to post whatever you like, just as seneca is, just as I am. But as I already suggested above, I think it might be as well “if you limited yourself to a few things that you find especially problematic, and took fewer pains to explain yourself.”
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MarkAntony198337
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Re: Ajax 1-200

Post by MarkAntony198337 »

ἀπόλλυται
Last edited by MarkAntony198337 on Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Hylander
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Re: Ajax 1-200

Post by Hylander »

καί μοί τις ὀπτὴρ αὐτὸν εἰσιδὼν μόνον
πηδῶντα πεδία σὺν νεορράντῳ ξίφει
φράζει τε κἀδήλωσεν

An accusative absolute has no grammatical connection with the rest of the clause to which it's attached. It has a logical or semantic connection in that it expresses circumstances relating to the clause, but it's grammatically independent.

πηδῶντα is an accusative participle modifying αὐτὸν, which is a constituent of the clause, specifically, the direct object of εἰσιδὼν. So πηδῶντα πεδία isn't an accusative absolute.

You might want to review the accusative absolute construction in your basic Greek text. An accusative absolute is usually impersonal, with neuter accusative participles such as δέον, "it being necessary" or ἐξόν, "it being possible". πηδῶντα πεδία isn't an impersonal expression.
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Re: Ajax 1-200

Post by MarkAntony198337 »

ἀπόλλυται
Last edited by MarkAntony198337 on Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Hylander
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Re: Ajax 1-200

Post by Hylander »

Was I incorrect to surmise that μαιμῶσαν was an accusative absolute and not acting in the capacity of a simple adjective modifying "χεῖρα" in the phrase, "καὶ πῶς ἐπέσχε χεῖρα μαιμῶσαν φόνου;
Yes.
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Re: Ajax 1-200

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ἀπόλλυται
Last edited by MarkAntony198337 on Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Hylander
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Re: Ajax 1-200

Post by Hylander »

Yes, the issue is whether φόνου is a complement of ἐπέσχε or of μαιμῶσαν.
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Re: Ajax 1-200

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ἀπόλλυται
Last edited by MarkAntony198337 on Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:18 pm, edited 8 times in total.

Hylander
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Re: Ajax 1-200

Post by Hylander »

But as mwh wrote in the previous Ajax thread,
Whether it goes with επεσχε or with μαιμωσαν is a false dilemma. We should resist these either/or choices.
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Re: Ajax 1-200

Post by Hylander »

I will only take something as an accusative absolute if it is absolutely independent in sense,
An accusative (or genitive) absolute is not independent in sense from the clause it's attached to--it connects with the clause by providing the circumstances or background. But it's independent grammatically from the clause--it doesn't modify, or otherwise connect syntactically with, a constituent of the clause.
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Re: Ajax 1-200

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ἀπόλλυται
Last edited by MarkAntony198337 on Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ajax 1-200

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ἀπόλλυται
Last edited by MarkAntony198337 on Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.

mwh
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Re: Ajax 1-200

Post by mwh »

MarkAntony,
I have changed my mind. In light of your reductive and banalizing response to my last post, and your subsequent flood of posts, I suggest you start a thread of your own in which you can pursue Greek grammar that you find problematic (which seems to be just about all of it) to your heart’s content, instead of continuing to clog this thread, which is devoted to reading Sophocles’ Ajax, a play you appear to have no interest in. You persist in your blinkered approach to the workings of the Greek language. You severely hamper yourself by filtering Greek through English and approaching Greek by way of your notions of English grammar.

You might do well to avoid Sophocles. If I see πηδωντα πεδια one more time I shall scream, and I’m sure a good chap like yourself would not want that. :)

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Re: Ajax 1-200

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ἀπόλλυται
Last edited by MarkAntony198337 on Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Timothée
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Re: Ajax 1-200

Post by Timothée »

I wasn't going to step in, but I have to say that I've never read a post by mwh which felt unkind or maybe derogatory in some way. Never. Blunt sometimes, but sometimes blunt is exactly what is needed so that the message hits home. Besides, we'll get nowhere if our messages are constantly excessively prolonged. I know I'm myself guilty of writing superfluously. Perhaps also the twisted humour may be read in a wrong way, as in writing tones can sometimes be misinterpreted. For me the humour gives a lot of strength and I wouldn't want to give it up.

My only advice at this point is that one has to grow a pachyderm skin to oneself to cope in this world. Should Textkit despite this still make one boiling with rage or deeply sad, a good advice is to take a holiday from it. Usually a few days or weeks is enough to calm oneself down.

A small personal story. I was lucky to get a teacher at the university who said and still says things very bluntly. It was a blessing in disguise, as I almost broke with him three or four times, but finally, when looking back after many years, I realised to my great surprise that he hadn't insulted me once. That I had taken those words as insults told me very much about myself. This growing experience made me a world of good.
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Paul Derouda
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Re: Ajax 1-200

Post by Paul Derouda »

Everybody, please! Let's keep our temper and let's stay polite. On an internet forum we can't see each other, and easy to misinterpret each other. Mark Antony, others have tried to give you advice, and it's easy to take that personally. I'm sure no one meant to hurt your feelings. I applaud you for attacking a very difficult text like Ajax, but perhaps it is too difficult for now. Along with Aeschylus and Thucydides, Sophocles is probably the most difficult Greek there is. Some other text, for example Xenophon's Anabasis or Homer, might better adapted and at least as much fun. And simply going back to your textbook might a lot of help, if you find something difficult. People here will certainly want to help you, just start a thread and ask you questions!

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seneca2008
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Re: Ajax 1-200

Post by seneca2008 »

This thread has now attracted over 1200 views so it must be proving compelling reading for a large number of people.

MarkAnthony I can see that you have found many of your exchanges here quite bruising and hurtful. It has been my experience, however, that almost everyone on this forum tries to make constructive and helpful contributions. We have moderators here and it is their job to regulate behaviour when self-restraint fails. MWH although at times he expresses himself trenchantly is always well intentioned.

I had considered sending you the next paragraph as a private message but I have decided to post it here because many people seem to be following this thread. Let me assure you that it is not my intention to belittle you or your undoubted abilities. You have a fine command of written English and express yourself in an individual and humane way. Your enthusiasm for language is palpable.

Given how you have learned Greek you are going to find great difficulty in progressing unless you lay down some grammatical foundations. My advice would be to read through Mastronarde or whatever textbook you can lay your hands on. I also think that you are not helping yourself by referring to how things work grammatically in English and then looking for a correspondence (or indeed difference) in Greek. You have handicapped yourself through interlinears because it has guided you into always thinking about Greek in relation to English as opposed to thinking about Greek in its own terms.

I think we have lost sight of Ajax and Sophocles in all the excitement. Perhaps we need to draw a line under what has happened and start thinking about the text and what it means.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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swtwentyman
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Re: Ajax 1-200

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Timothée wrote:A small personal story. I was lucky to get a teacher at the university who said and still says things very bluntly. It was a blessing in disguise, as I almost broke with him three or four times, but finally, when looking back after many years, I realised to my great surprise that he hadn't insulted me once. That I had taken those words as insults told me very much about myself. This growing experience made me a world of good.
Yes -- I had a teacher just like this whom I hated at the time but who transformed my life. I just about flunked the course I took (Roman history) and he let me know it, bluntly and often (although I saved my skin by acing the final) but through it all he always gave me encouragement (once he assured me that I could still pass the class when it seemed hopeless). The course ended up sparking my interest in classics (where I had had none before) and when I e-mailed him out of the blue years later (when I was studying Latin) he was very touched and even sent me a copy of Wheelock's Latin Reader. He seems to have either retired (he was on the older end even when I was in college) or stopped reading the odd e-mail I've sent him. Despite my D+ I consider that course one of the best I ever took. Often the easier professors and teachers come up short.

Frankly I'm a bit surprised I've never been on the receiving end of one of mwh's more sharply-worded posts.

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Re: Ajax 1-200

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ἀπόλλυται
Last edited by MarkAntony198337 on Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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swtwentyman
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Re: Ajax 1-200

Post by swtwentyman »

MarkAntony198337 wrote:I was defamed in a public place, and so I was enforced to reply in a public place.
Don't take this the wrong way, but nobody knows who you are. Jeidsath, I, and I imagine Paul Derouda and whatever initials mwh stands for use our real names; at times I've had second thoughts about using mine but the point is that if you take so much offense at being taken to task under a pseudonym that you have to defend your honor you could probably use some time away from the internet. Not trying to be at all harsh.

MarkAntony198337
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Re: Ajax 1-200

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ἀπόλλυται
Last edited by MarkAntony198337 on Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:09 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Ajax 1-200

Post by C. S. Bartholomew »

Paul Derouda wrote:The Perseus word study tool is notoriously very unreliable – I use it myself, but very, very cautiously. The tool in TLG (https://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/) is probably better, but I haven't used it much, as I'm so used to Perseus.

For those who are new to TLG, you can register as a guest and make use of the search engine[1] for texts included in the open TLG library which includes a lot of things that classics students want, like Homer, Attic Tragedy, Plato, Aristotle,Thucydides, Xenophon and some church fathers. That's not a bad list considering your not paying for it. You can browse (read) these texts using the hyper linked lexicons and parsing engine. The performance on TLG is several orders of magnitude better than Perseus.


[1] I am not a great fan of the TLG search engine. Been spoiled by using Accordance. The search engine was awesome in version 0.8 (beta) fall of '93 and now in version 11.x it is somewhat better.
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seneca2008
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Re: Ajax 1-200

Post by seneca2008 »

Unless anyone objects I intend to start another thread on reading Ajax. I may copy some stuff from here (or not if I dont think its going to be helpful) onto the new thread. I doubt that I will do anything before Sunday night or Monday. I am at Glyndebourne tomorrow for the Mastersingers. this is (an)other story about how the individual can (or cant) be incorporated into society. Perhaps we have not been reading Ajax here so much as acting it out as psycho-drama?

When I have started the new thread perhaps one of the moderators might close this one, if thats thought to be the best course?
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: Ajax 1-200

Post by Hylander »

Has this thread gone off the tracks again? Is anyone still reading Ajax? I am, for the second time, and I'm up to the third episode. Anything to discuss?
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seneca2008
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Re: Ajax 1-200

Post by seneca2008 »

I have not made much progress. I have a few questions on 51-73. Should we have another thread, this one doesnt seem to make much sense?
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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