First declension: short or long -α

Here you can discuss all things Ancient Greek. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get help with a difficult passage of Greek, and more.
Post Reply
ivan
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:27 pm

First declension: short or long -α

Post by ivan »

How to determine whether a noun belonging to first declension has short final -α or a long one? In a Greek grammar by William W. Goodwin the rules are explained on the page 38 (but rules do not apply to every possible noun, so I wanted to check those nouns in LSJ). But, in 175. b) on the same page it says that ἀλήθεια has a short -α at the end, while in LSJ its perhaps a bit confusing (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... )lh%2Fqeia).
I thought that if Ionic dialect of such words has -η at the end, then the Attic form has long -α, but obviously I'm wrong since Ionic version is ἀληθείη, and according to William W. Goodwin, it is ἀλήθεια^.

Timothée
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 564
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:34 pm

Re: First declension: short or long -α

Post by Timothée »

Both forms exist for ἀληθεια. Apparently ἀλήθεια is younger (Schwyzer I p. 469), and also Herodian says that in Old Attic it was ἀληθεία (as noted in LS); in Doric ἀλάθεια and ἀλαθεία (the latter in Bacchylides).

More generally speaking the first declension -ᾰ nouns derive from -jα, where the jod often disappeared or developed into something else.

PS. The letters with breve on Textkit are really wonky and ugly-looking. Could they be mended? I fear I guess the answer.

Hylander
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 2504
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:16 pm

Re: First declension: short or long -α

Post by Hylander »

In LSJ, there's no need to indicate that the final -α is short in the lemma, since the word is proparoxytone (acute accent on antepenult). If the final -α were long, the word would be paroxytone (acute accent on penult). The LSJ entry does indicate that in epic, Ionic and early Attic, the final syllable was long:
Ep. (and Farly Att. acc. to Hdn.Gr.2.454) ἀληθεία_; Ion. ἀληθείη :
The line after α (α_) is the way that the online version of LSJ indicates a long vowel.

(The clunky online version of LSJ has an obvious misprint: "Farly" should be "Early.")

This is how the online version of LSJ indicates that the first α- is short: [α^λ].

It's somewhat difficult to see these indications in the print version of LSJ--you have to look very carefully--but the online version is even more difficult to use.
Bill Walderman

User avatar
jeidsath
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 5332
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: First declension: short or long -α

Post by jeidsath »

Chandler, Greek Accentuation wrote:64. Though it does not fall within the province of the present work to determine the quantity of final syllables, yet it may be remarked that, subject to many exceptions, the final α is short when the genitive ends in ης, and long when it ends in ας, except 1. hyperdissyllabic words in εια with a corresponding adjective in ης, as ἀλήθειᾰ ἀληθής, ἀσάφεια ἀσαφής, ὑγίεια ὑγιής; 2. feminine forms like εὐπατέρεια, ἠριγένεια, τριτογένεια, δυσαριστοτόκεια, with no corresponding masculines; 3. feminines in εια corresponding to masculines in ευς, as βασίλεια βασιλεύς, ἱέρεια ἱερεύς, πανδόκεια πανδοκεύς, though this last word is by some derived directly from πανδοκεύω, and consequently written πανδοκείᾱ; the words βοήθειᾰ, θάλειᾰ, κράνειᾰ, and κώδειᾰ, have a short final syllable; 4. common names of women in τρια, as μαθήτρια, ποιήτρια, πλύντρια ; 5. hyperdissyllables in οια, as εὔνοια, Εὔβοια ; 6. those in υια, as μυῖα, χαλκόμυια, but θυίᾱ, μητρυιά and ἀγυιά are long. The termination ρα is short in all simple hyperdissyllables with a naturally long penultimate, as ἄρουρᾰ, γέφῡρᾰ, μάχαιρᾰ (except words in ωρα with τιάρα and κολλύρα); in all words ending in ιρα (except ζειρά, σειρά, χοίρα, ἑταίρα), and in σφῦρα and κραῦρα, Κίρρα and Πύρρα: elsewhere it is long. All in δρα, θρα, and τρα, are long, except σκολόπενδρᾰ. No notice is here taken of the Doric forms in ᾱ = η.
***
Timothée wrote:PS. The letters with breve on Textkit are really wonky and ugly-looking. Could they be mended? I fear I guess the answer.
Long answer: It looks fine on my browser (OS X + Chrome). The font is set to '"Lucida Grande", "Trebuchet MS", Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;' Your browser will pick the first font on that line which is available and try to display it. If the graph is missing from that particular font on your system, it will pull it from a default system font and look strange, which is likely what is happening.

Short answer: Try using Chrome.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

Timothée
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 564
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:34 pm

Re: First declension: short or long -α

Post by Timothée »

Thanks Joel, but in fact I'm already using Chrome. Actually it looks right on Internet Explosion, but I really don't want to use that. The breve is next to the vowel instead of being on it. There are other infelicities as well, but they're mentioned by jaihare on Repr. Greek thread.

ivan
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:27 pm

Re: First declension: short or long -α

Post by ivan »

Hylander wrote:In LSJ, there's no need to indicate that the final -α is short in the lemma, since the word is proparoxytone (acute accent on antepenult). If the final -α were long, the word would be paroxytone (acute accent on penult).
I understand it now.

But I would like to know how and why do they mark short or long syllables in LSJ. Why do they sometimes put breve, sometimes macron, and sometimes nothing at all? eg διδάσκω is [δι^δάσκω]; and they didn't mark the middle α. Another example, εὑρίσκω, without any indications about middle ι, λαμβάνω without any indications at all.

User avatar
jeidsath
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 5332
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: First declension: short or long -α

Post by jeidsath »

In λαμβάνω the second alpha is short, but I'm not sure why the LSJ doesn't mark it. There's probably some rule that applies, but that I don't know.

εὑίσκω is harder because the iota is in a syllable that is heavy due to the two consonants. Often in that case, because metrical evidence is impossible, it's hard to tell whether the vowel is long or short. There may be accentual information for some of the forms. Sometimes the grammarians or the ancient dictionaries preserved evidence. And sometimes the etymological arguments are fairly conclusive.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

Timothée
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 564
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:34 pm

Re: First declension: short or long -α

Post by Timothée »

Generally dictionaries don't want to comment on vowel lengths in closed syllables with α, ι, υ. ᾱ, though, is often revealed by development into η in Attic and which occurred even more widely in Ionic (of course our sources are often limited). Thus, λαμβάνω would be λημβάνω, λαμβήνω or λημβήνω if either or both of its two α's were something else than ᾰ. Besides, -αν- is quite well known present stem suffix (and of course it's open syllable).

ι and υ will therefore often be trickier than α. In εὑρίσκω it is highly likely ῐ, as it's the famous -ισκ- suffix (also -σκ-).

Sometimes dictionaries are too reluctant to mark closed syllable vowel lengths. This is particularly reproachable in the Latin dictionary OLD, as many of those (like āctus, māximus) are known (theoretically Romance languages tell all the vowel lengths except ā/ă). I don't like the principle that "as many are not known, let's not mark the length even where we do know it".

ivan
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:27 pm

Re: First declension: short or long -α

Post by ivan »

Well, I'm just a beginner so in those cases, when vowel length isn't noted, it won't be a big problem to make them all short?

Hylander
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 2504
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:16 pm

Re: First declension: short or long -α

Post by Hylander »

when vowel length isn't noted, it won't be a big problem to make them all short?
It won't matter, certainly, but you should be aware that if LSJ doesn't mark the vowels with "hidden" quantity (i.e., where the vowel quantity can't be inferred from verse or otherwise), it means that no one knows what the quantity was. It would probably be best simply not to mark the quantity at all in these cases.
Bill Walderman

Post Reply