Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by Hylander »

You left out τῶν βασιλέων, but the translation is otherwise ok.

ὅποι τις ἂν εἴποι -- this could be reduced to just "and everywhere else"

Why the Victorian English?
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by jeidsath »

I hadn't really noticed, I was just trying to find expressions that followed the Greek. But I have been listening to Gibbon on audio book all last week.

D 1.14
τί οὖν, ἄν τις εἴποι, ταῦτα λέγεις ἡμῖν νῦν; ἵνα γνῶτ᾽, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, καὶ αἴσθησθ᾽ ἀμφότερα, καὶ τὸ προΐεσθαι καθ᾽ ἕκαστον ἀεί τι τῶν πραγμάτων ὡς ἀλυσιτελές, καὶ τὴν φιλοπραγμοσύνην ᾗ χρῆται καὶ συζῇ Φίλιππος, ὑφ᾽ ἧς οὐκ ἔστιν ὅπως ἀγαπήσας τοῖς πεπραγμένοις ἡσυχίαν σχήσει. εἰ δ᾽ ὁ μὲν ὡς ἀεί τι μεῖζον τῶν ὑπαρχόντων δεῖ πράττειν ἐγνωκὼς ἔσται, ἡμεῖς δ᾽ ὡς οὐδενὸς ἀντιληπτέον ἐρρωμένως τῶν πραγμάτων, σκοπεῖσθ᾽ εἰς τί ποτ᾽ ἐλπὶς ταῦτα τελευτῆσαι.
For what reason, someone might say, do you tell us these things now? So that you my know, O men of Athens, and perceive two things, first how fruitless it is to always let slip some part of every affair, and second the passion for affairs which Phillip is subject to and which suffuses his life, under which there is no chance that his finding content with what he has already accomplished will grant peace. And if he will be conscious of always having something more to carry out than what he has already accomplished, and we [regard] nothing of our affairs to be taken up resolutely, then look carefully for what possible hope this could bring about.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by Hylander »

Sorry for the delayed response. This morning (12/12) I've made a few edits to my post from yesterday.

Generally, you have correctly analyzed the syntax, but here are a few points about the translation:

ἀμφότερα -- better "both of these things"

γνῶτ᾽ . . . καὶ αἴσθησθ᾽ have two objects, which are not quite parallel: a clause (τὸ προΐεσθαι . . . ὡς ἀλυσιτελές, "introduced" by the subordinating conjunction ὡς, "that") and a noun (φιλοπραγμοσύνην). Perhaps "recognize" would be a better way to translate γνῶτ᾽--an English verb that can take both constructions.

τὸ προΐεσθαι καθ᾽ ἕκαστον ἀεί τι τῶν πραγμάτων ὡς ἀλυσιτελές -- that [ὡς] it's unprofitable to always be letting go of/letting slip each situation [literally, "some particular one of the situations"] one by one". Not "a part of each situation."

Note how delaying the conjunction ὡς adds emphasis to ἀλυσιτελές -- you can almost hear his voice rising in a crescendo to fortissimo.

φιλοπραγμοσύνη -- maybe "restlessness" or "restless ambition"

οὐκ ἔστιν ὅπως ἀγαπήσας τοῖς πεπραγμένοις ἡσυχίαν σχήσει -- it's impossible that he will be content [literally, "having become content"] with his accomplishments and be at rest", not "grant peace". ἡσυχίαν is "the absence of activity."

εἰ δ᾽ ὁ μὲν ὡς ἀεί τι μεῖζον τῶν ὑπαρχόντων δεῖ πράττειν ἐγνωκὼς ἔσται, ἡμεῖς δ᾽ ὡς οὐδενὸς ἀντιληπτέον ἐρρωμένως τῶν πραγμάτων, -- supply εγνωκοτες εσομεθα (by analogy with ἐγνωκὼς ἔσται; not εσμεν, as I previously wrote in error) with the second ως -- "but if he will judge that he must always accomplish something greater than the present circumstances, and we, that we don't have to get a firm grip on any particular situation , , , " Note ὁ μὲν ὡς . . . ἡμεῖς δ᾽ ὡς, which makes the repetition of the future perfect (with the change of person) unnecessary. γιγνωσκω can mean to "think" or "judge". Future perfect because he's looking further ahead to the ultimate outcome.

Also note τι τῶν πραγμάτων in the previous sentence corresponds to οὐδενὸς . . . τῶν πραγμάτων here.

σκοπεῖσθ᾽ εἰς τί ποτ᾽ ἐλπὶς ταῦτα τελευτῆσαι -- supply εστι with ἐλπὶς (this is an idiom); ἐλπὶς is not necessarily positive "hope" -- it can be negative or neutral; here maybe "expectation": "consider what the expectation is that these things end up at"; less literally, "consider how this can be expected to end up". Read the dictionary entry for ἐλπὶς on this.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by jeidsath »

I haven't had much time for Greek in the last week myself. ὅτι θυγάτηρ ἐγεννήθη ἡμῖν. It makes much more sense now that you've pointed out the correct range of meaning for ἐλπίς. For γιγνώσκω, I feel like "judge" could be the explanation, but couldn't it still work as a verb of perception if the object were τι μεῖζον in the first phrase, and οὐδενὸς ἀντιληπτέον in the second?

D. 1.15
πρὸς θεῶν, τίς οὕτως εὐήθης ἐστὶν ὑμῶν ὅστις ἀγνοεῖ τὸν ἐκεῖθεν πόλεμον δεῦρ᾽ ἥξοντα, ἂν ἀμελήσωμεν; ἀλλὰ μήν, εἰ τοῦτο γενήσεται, δέδοικ᾽, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, μὴ τὸν αὐτὸν τρόπον ὥσπερ οἱ δανειζόμενοι ῥᾳδίως ἐπὶ τοῖς μεγάλοις τόκοις μικρὸν εὐπορήσαντες χρόνον ὕστερον καὶ τῶν ἀρχαίων ἀπέστησαν, οὕτω καὶ ἡμεῖς ἂν ἐπὶ πολλῷ φανῶμεν ἐρρᾳθυμηκότες, καὶ ἅπαντα πρὸς ἡδονὴν ζητοῦντες πολλὰ καὶ χαλεπὰ ὧν οὐκ ἐβουλόμεθ᾽ ὕστερον εἰς ἀνάγκην ἔλθωμεν ποιεῖν, καὶ κινδυνεύσωμεν περὶ τῶν ἐν αὐτῇ τῇ χώρᾳ.
the gods, who among you is so simple that he is ignorant that the war will come from there to here, if we do not manage things? But indeed, if this comes about, I am afraid, O men of Athens, lest the same way that borrowers at high interest having become rich for a little while later lose even what they had at the beginning, lest also we in the same way be shown to leave off work at many things and be seekers after pleasure in everything, that many difficult things which we do not want to do, we should later come to do under duress, and that we should be at risk because of them in our very own land.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by Hylander »

For γιγνώσκω, I feel like "judge" could be the explanation, but couldn't it still work as a verb of perception if the object were τι μεῖζον in the first phrase, and οὐδενὸς ἀντιληπτέον in the second?
Not sure I understand this. The objects of ἐγνωκὼς ἔσται and understood εγνωκοτες εσομεθα are the subordinate clauses ὡς ἀεί τι μεῖζον τῶν ὑπαρχόντων δεῖ πράττειν and ὡς οὐδενὸς ἀντιληπτέον ἐρρωμένως τῶν πραγμάτων, respectively.

A few minor points on the next passage:

τὸν ἐκεῖθεν πόλεμον δεῦρ᾽ ἥξοντα -- "the war from there will come here"; your translation captures the sense well enough, but ἐκεῖθεν really modifies πόλεμον, which it can do despite being an adverb because of the article. Maybe "the war from those parts", "the war from that direction".

ἀμελήσωμεν -- "be careless, negligent"

πρὸς ἡδονὴν -- "comfort" might be better than "pleasure".

ἐβουλόμεθ᾽ -- imperfect

κινδυνεύσωμεν περὶ τῶν ἐν αὐτῇ τῇ χώρᾳ -- something like "we should be at risk over the situation in our own land". τῶν ἐν αὐτῇ τῇ χώρᾳ is a unit with the article "substantivizing" the phrase ἐν αὐτῇ τῇ χώρᾳ, "the [things] in [our own] land". κινδυνεύω περὶ -- "to be at risk over/for"
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by jeidsath »

I had been thinking that ὡς could govern the participle, as if ὁ μὲν ἔσται ὡς ... if he will always be as one conscious of something more that he needs, and if we will be as ones conscious of nothing that we need to take up resolutely...

D 1.16
τὸ μὲν οὖν ἐπιτιμᾶν ἴσως φήσαι τις ἂν ῥᾴδιον καὶ παντὸς εἶναι, τὸ δ᾽ ὑπὲρ τῶν παρόντων ὅ τι δεῖ πράττειν ἀποφαίνεσθαι, τοῦτ᾽ εἶναι συμβούλου. ἐγὼ δ᾽ οὐκ ἀγνοῶ μέν, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, τοῦθ᾽ ὅτι πολλάκις ὑμεῖς οὐ τοὺς αἰτίους, ἀλλὰ τοὺς ὑστάτους περὶ τῶν πραγμάτων εἰπόντας ἐν ὀργῇ ποιεῖσθε, ἄν τι μὴ κατὰ γνώμην ἐκβῇ: οὐ μὴν οἶμαι δεῖν τὴν ἰδίαν ἀσφάλειαν σκοποῦνθ᾽ ὑποστείλασθαι περὶ ὧν ὑμῖν συμφέρειν ἡγοῦμαι.
The act of blaming, someone might say, is easy for anyone, but the act of making clear what must be done from our present circumstances, is what belongs to an advisor. Myself, I am not unaware of this, that often you men of Athens do not become angry at the reasons, but at the last speakers about a matter, should something not turn out how you want it. However, I do not think that it's necessary for one looking to his own safety to hold back about what I am thinking is advantageous to you.

I adjusted "O men of Athens" to highlight what I thought was emphasis on ὑμεῖς. ἡγοῦμαι seems to refer to what he is thinking now, not in general?, so I have "I am thinking" for "I think."
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

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I had been thinking that ὡς could govern the participle, as if ὁ μὲν ἔσται ὡς ... if he will always be as one conscious of something more that he needs, and if we will be as ones conscious of nothing that we need to take up resolutely...
ἐγνωκὼς ἔσται is the periphrastic future perfect; also how would you fit δεῖ πράττειν in that analysis? That has to be a subordinate clause introduced by ὡς; there's no relative pronoun to make it a relative clause.

-----

ῥᾴδιον καὶ παντὸς εἶναι -- " . . . is easy and belongs to everyone/anyone". παντὸς εἶναι is parallel to εἶναι συμβούλου.

" . . . someone might say . . ." is not parenthetical in Greek: "Someone might say that the act of blaming is easy . . ." Better translate in a way to make it clear that μὲν . . . δ᾽ is not logically subordinate to "someone might say." "Someone might say that criticism is easy and anyone can do it, but revealing what must be done about the present circumstances is the counselor's job." (This doesn't capture the parallelism of παντὸς εἶναι and εἶναι συμβούλου, though).

οὐ τοὺς αἰτίους, ἀλλὰ τοὺς ὑστάτους περὶ τῶν πραγμάτων εἰπόντας -- "angry not at those who are responsible, but at those who are last to speak about the situation/matter" (not "angry at the reasons").

μὴ κατὰ γνώμην -- "not in accordance with your ideas"

οὐ μὴν οἶμαι δεῖν τὴν ἰδίαν ἀσφάλειαν σκοποῦνθ᾽ ὑποστείλασθαι περὶ ὧν ὑμῖν συμφέρειν ἡγοῦμαι. -- I think this is a more general statement of principle, not limited to the present circumstances: "but I don't think one/I ought to [not 'it's necessary'; this is a statement of moral obligation] consider one's/my own safety and hold back about what I think is in your interests." This veers between a general statement of principle and a statement of D.'s own principles.

Emphatic ἐγὼ really belongs with the second clause, to which the ἀγνοῶ μέν clause is logically (though not grammatically) subordinate; "even though I'm aware I'm taking a risk in speaking the truth to you, I most emphatically don't think I ought to subordinate your best interests to my own personal safety."

I would leave ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι as a vocative, and translate it simply "gentlemen". "I'm not, gentlmen, unware that . . . " ὑμεῖς adds a note of censure, almost scorn, but the contrast is between ἀγνοῶ μέν and very emphatic οὐ μὴν οἶμαι (μὴν is much stronger than δε would be to balance μέν).
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

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D. 1.17
φημὶ δὴ διχῇ βοηθητέον εἶναι τοῖς πράγμασιν ὑμῖν, τῷ τε τὰς πόλεις τοῖς Ὀλυνθίοις σῴζειν καὶ τοὺς τοῦτο ποιήσοντας στρατιώτας ἐκπέμπειν, καὶ τῷ τὴν ἐκείνου χώραν κακῶς ποιεῖν καὶ τριήρεσι καὶ στρατιώταις ἑτέροις:
I say that what must be done to help these circumstances of yours is in two parts, first the saving of the cities for the Olynthians and the sending out of the soldiers that will do this, and second the despoiling of that man's country, with separate ships and soldiers.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

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D 1.18
εἰ δὲ θατέρου τούτων ὀλιγωρήσετε, ὀκνῶ μὴ μάταιος ἡμῖν ἡ στρατεία γένηται. εἴτε γὰρ ὑμῶν τὴν ἐκείνου κακῶς ποιούντων, ὑπομείνας τοῦτ᾽ Ὄλυνθον παραστήσεται, ῥᾳδίως ἐπὶ τὴν οἰκείαν ἐλθὼν ἀμυνεῖται: εἴτε βοηθησάντων μόνον ὑμῶν εἰς Ὄλυνθον, ἀκινδύνως ὁρῶν ἔχοντα τὰ οἴκοι, προσκαθεδεῖται καὶ προσεδρεύσει τοῖς πράγμασι, περιέσται τῷ χρόνῳ τῶν πολιορκουμένων. δεῖ δὴ πολλὴν καὶ διχῇ τὴν βοήθειαν εἶναι.
And if either of these is neglected, I fear lest the campaign become vain for us. On the one hand, while you despoil that man's country, he having waited for this would bring Olynthus to terms, and easily coming to his home defend himself. Otherwise, while you only aid Olynthus, he seeing that things at home are in no danger, shall sit down and squat to attend to these matters, and shall be at advantage in time, over the besieged. It is therefore very necessary for the help to be in two parts.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

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διχῇ βοηθητέον εἶναι τοῖς πράγμασιν ὑμῖν -- ὑμῖν is the indirect object/agent of βοηθητέον: the situation must be helped by you in two ways/parts", "you must help/address the situation in two ways".

τῷ . . . σῴζειν καὶ . . . ἐκπέμπειν, καὶ τῷ . . . κακῶς ποιεῖν . . . : "both by rescuing and sending out and by harming"

ποιήσοντας -- future participle equivalent to purpose clause: "soldiers to do this"

τριήρεσι καὶ στρατιώταις ἑτέροις -- "triremes and other soldiers"
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

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εἰ δὲ θατέρου τούτων ὀλιγωρήσετε -- "but if you neglect . . ."

εἴτε . . . εἴτε -- "either . . . or"

ὑμῶν τὴν ἐκείνου κακῶς ποιούντων . . . βοηθησάντων μόνον ὑμῶν εἰς Ὄλυνθον, -- these genitive absolutes are equivalent to the protases of conditionals. "if you harm his territory", "if you only send reinforcements to Olynthus".

παραστήσεται -- "will bring to terms"

οἰκείαν -- "homeland?"

ὑπομείνας -- "endure", "submit to", "allow it to happen".

προσκαθεδεῖται καὶ προσεδρεύσει τοῖς πράγμασι -- "he will lay siege and watch/attend to the situation"

περιέσται -- "he will overcome", not just "be at advantage over"

δεῖ δὴ πολλὴν καὶ διχῇ τὴν βοήθειαν εἶναι. -- πολλὴν modifies βοήθειαν: "So the assistance/help must be ample and in two prongs."
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by jeidsath »

I haven't commented on your corrections, mostly because they all seem self-evident to me once I read them. I have been looking through each carefully.

D. 1. 19.
καὶ περὶ μὲν τῆς βοηθείας ταῦτα γιγνώσκω: περὶ δὲ χρημάτων πόρου, ἔστιν, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, χρήμαθ᾽ ὑμῖν, ἔστιν ὅσ᾽ οὐδενὶ τῶν ἄλλων ἀνθρώπων στρατιωτικά: ταῦτα δ᾽ ὑμεῖς οὕτως ὡς βούλεσθε λαμβάνετε. εἰ μὲν οὖν ταῦτα τοῖς στρατευομένοις ἀποδώσετε, οὐδενὸς ὑμῖν προσδεῖ πόρου, εἰ δὲ μή, προσδεῖ, μᾶλλον δ᾽ ἅπαντος ἐνδεῖ τοῦ πόρου. ‘τί οὖν;’ ἄν τις εἴποι, ‘σὺ γράφεις ταῦτ᾽ εἶναι στρατιωτικά;’ μὰ Δί᾽ οὐκ ἔγωγε.
Now, about the assistance I know these things, but about the source of funds, there is, O men of Athens, wealth belonging to you, in amount as to no other men for strategic purposes: and you men take from it as you like. If you shall distribute this to the armies, there is not any additional need of a funding source, but if not, there is such a need, or rather funds are completely lacking. What is this? someone may ask, are you motioning that these are strategic funds? By god, not me!
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

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οὐδενὶ τῶν ἄλλων ἀνθρώπων στρατιωτικά -- Dilts' new OCT brackets στρατιωτικά. Demosthenes seems to be talking about diverting the Theoric Fund (the fund for the festivals), a highly controversial issue, and one that could get D. in trouble just by formally proposing legislation (γράφειν) for such an action. D. denies he's making such a proposal, but he has simple put the idea in play.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by jeidsath »

McQueen discusses the bracketing of στρατιωτικά (though it's included in his text) and has an appendix on the details of the Theoric fund. He mentions the rhetor who was fined ten talents (in the very year that Demosthenes gives this speech, reduced to one talent) for suggesting that the Theoric fund be used for military purposes. In the end, Athens finally did raid the Theoric fund to pay for war expenses. I can see the argument for leaving out στρατιωτικά here. Demosthenes' point seems to be that they have vast wealth belonging to them, but it's precisely wealth that is not available for military purposes. On the other hand, I think that it still makes sense with στρατιωτικά. In the manuscript version, Demosthenes is implying his proposal with the first sentence ("you've got this vast Theoric fund that is available for military purposes if you just say that it is").

D 1.20
ἐγὼ μὲν γὰρ ἡγοῦμαι στρατιώτας δεῖν κατασκευασθῆναι καὶ ταῦτ᾽ εἶναι στρατιωτικὰ καὶ μίαν σύνταξιν εἶναι τὴν αὐτὴν τοῦ τε λαμβάνειν καὶ τοῦ ποιεῖν τὰ δέοντα, ὑμεῖς δ᾽ οὕτω πως ἄνευ πραγμάτων λαμβάνειν εἰς τὰς ἑορτάς. ἔστι δὴ λοιπόν, οἶμαι, πάντας εἰσφέρειν, ἂν πολλῶν δέῃ, πολλά, ἂν ὀλίγων, ὀλίγα. δεῖ δὲ χρημάτων, καὶ ἄνευ τούτων οὐδὲν ἔστι γενέσθαι τῶν δεόντων. λέγουσι δὲ καὶ ἄλλους τινὰς ἄλλοι πόρους, ὧν ἕλεσθ᾽ ὅστις ὑμῖν συμφέρειν δοκεῖ: καὶ ἕως ἐστὶ καιρός, ἀντιλάβεσθε τῶν πραγμάτων.
For I think that an army needs to be fully equipped and that military funds be [used], and that there be a single arrangement for the collection and the use of what is necessary, but you think to collect for the festival in the same way you do now without trouble. Indeed there is another option, I think, to tax everyone, much, should the need be great, little, if it is small. But there is a need of funds, and without these nothing can come about of what is necessary. Different people speak of different fund sources, of which I tell you to chose whatever appears most advantageous to you, and while the time is ripe, to take up these matters.

McQueen mentions that "καὶ ταῦτ᾽ εἶναι στρατιωτικὰ" is deleted in some texts as well. However the rhetorical purpose seems clear to me. Demosthenes is being euphemistic about raiding the Theoric fund, and is speaking carefully to avoid prosecution. He supports using a military fund, but leaves it only (strongly) implied that he wants his audience to declare the Theoric fund a military fund. McQueen doesn't mention it, but I wonder if μίαν σύνταξιν is a reference to the system of distribution of Theoric funds, which might make it specially suited for raising an army. (It would have required large number of individual payments to individuals, so Demosthenes may have felt that the administrative requirements and record keeping were similar.)
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by Hylander »

Dilts brackets ταῦτ᾽ but notes that Dobree (I believe he was one of those critics who attacked texts aggressively) bracketed καὶ ταῦτ᾽ εἶναι στρατιωτικὰ. I think something is amiss in the text here, because I don't fully understand this passage. I think καὶ μίαν σύνταξιν εἶναι τὴν αὐτὴν τοῦ τε λαμβάνειν καὶ τοῦ ποιεῖν τὰ δέοντα, means that there should be a single arrangement for collecting funds through taxation and then allocating the funds collected to what needs to be done -- in other words, that funds collected through taxation should not be earmarked for specific purposes (i.e., festivals), but instead should be used for whatever purpose is necessary.

κατασκευασθῆναι -- maybe "raised and equpped."

ἕλεσθ᾽ and ἀντιλάβεσθε are imperatives, of course. In English, you could end a sentence after τινὰς ἄλλοι πόρους and translate ὧν as a demonstrative: "Choose whichever of these you think is advantageous to you and get a grip on the situation while the time is ripe."
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by jeidsath »

I wonder if the explanation is that Demosthenes is speaking about revenues rather than existing monies. He could be saying that 'you have all this revenue available for military purposes,' and is proposing that instead of collecting for the Theoric fund, it be collected for a military fund. But it is his audience that wants to collect the Theoric fund in addition to this -- ὑμεῖς δ᾽ οὕτω πως ἄνευ πραγμάτων λαμβάνειν εἰς τὰς ἑορτάς.

Of course, all this would be equivalent to raiding the Theoric fund, but he can't make that proposal.

D 1.21
ἄξιον δ᾽ ἐνθυμηθῆναι καὶ λογίσασθαι τὰ πράγματ᾽ ἐν ᾧ καθέστηκε νυνὶ τὰ Φιλίππου. οὔτε γάρ, ὡς δοκεῖ καὶ φήσειέ τις ἂν μὴ σκοπῶν ἀκριβῶς, εὐτρεπῶς οὐδ᾽ ὡς ἂν κάλλιστ᾽ αὐτῷ τὰ παρόντ᾽ ἔχει, οὔτ᾽ ἂν ἐξήνεγκε τὸν πόλεμόν ποτε τοῦτον ἐκεῖνος, εἰ πολεμεῖν ᾠήθη δεήσειν αὐτόν, ἀλλ᾽ ὡς ἐπιὼν ἅπαντα τότ᾽ ἤλπιζε τὰ πράγματ᾽ ἀναιρήσεσθαι, κᾆτα διέψευσται. τοῦτο δὴ πρῶτον αὐτὸν ταράττει παρὰ γνώμην γεγονὸς καὶ πολλὴν ἀθυμίαν αὐτῷ παρέχει, εἶτα τὰ τῶν Θετταλῶν.
But it is right to consider and reason about how matters have turned out for Phillip.*** For neither are the present matters well-arranged in the best way for him -- as they appear to be and as someone might say without examining carefully -- nor would he have carried out this war at the time, if he thought that he would need to wage war himself, but when attacking then he expected all of the matters to be hands off, and subsequently was completely cheated. Indeed this first thing disturbed him, turning out against expectations, and greatly discouraged him, and after that the matters of the Thessalians [discouraged him as well].

*** I had trouble capturing the hyperbaton in English, so this is a paraphrase.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

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τὰ πράγματ᾽ ἐν ᾧ καθέστηκε νυνὶ τὰ Φιλίππου -- "to consider where the situation now stands -- Philip's situation".

ἀκριβῶς -- maybe better "accurately".

εὐτρεπῶς -- "turned out well" or something like that.

ποτε -- "ever", "he would never have carried out this war".

ὡς here indicates that this is what he expected: "he expected [maybe "hoped" would be right here] that he would attack [ἐπιὼν is future] and seize/grab/grasp/lay hold of matters for himself [ἀναιρήσεσθαι -- middle; subject is Philip, not τὰ πράγματ᾽, and ἀν- is the preverb ἀνα, not alpha privative; but maybe you could translate loosely "matters would fall into his hands"].

κᾆτα διέψευσται -- better translate the perfect with English present: "he has been completely deceived", definitely not "cheated."

τοῦτο δὴ πρῶτον αὐτὸν ταράττει παρὰ γνώμην γεγονὸς καὶ πολλὴν ἀθυμίαν αὐτῷ παρέχει, εἶτα τὰ τῶν Θετταλῶν. -- maybe "this is the first thing that is shaking/has shaken him, having turned out against expectations, and greatly discourages him, and then events among the Thessalians [has shaken him too]."
"
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by jeidsath »

D 1.22
ταῦτα γὰρ ἄπιστα μὲν ἦν δήπου φύσει καὶ ἀεὶ πᾶσιν ἀνθρώποις, κομιδῇ δ᾽, ὥσπερ ἦν, καὶ ἔστι νῦν τούτῳ. καὶ γὰρ Παγασὰς ἀπαιτεῖν αὐτόν εἰσιν ἐψηφισμένοι, καὶ Μαγνησίαν κεκωλύκασι τειχίζειν. ἤκουον δ᾽ ἔγωγέ τινων, ὡς οὐδὲ τοὺς λιμένας καὶ τὰς ἀγορὰς ἔτι δώσοιεν αὐτῷ καρποῦσθαι: τὰ γὰρ κοινὰ τὰ Θετταλῶν ἀπὸ τούτων δέοι διοικεῖν, οὐ Φίλιππον λαμβάνειν. εἰ δὲ τούτων ἀποστερήσεται τῶν χρημάτων, εἰς στενὸν κομιδῇ τὰ τῆς τροφῆς τοῖς ξένοις αὐτῷ καταστήσεται.
For these were no doubt untrustworthy by nature always to all men, and as in the past, even now are so to him. For now they have even voted to ask back Pagasae from him, and they have prevented Magnesia from building walls. I have heard with my own ears from some, that neither will the ports and markets still pay him [any profits] they produce, for the public affairs of the Thessalians need to be managed out of these, not for Phillip to take them. And if he shall be deprived of these monies, the cost to him of maintenance for his mercenaries will be very tight.

The neuter plural of ταῦτα ἄπιστα surprises me. He seems to be talking about the people, not their affairs. Is this attraction?

Also, is this a parallel use of καθίστημι:

οὐκ ἠθέλησα πράξασθαι πλέον ἢ ὅσου ἐμοὶ κατέστησαν

Apparently accusative ὄσον is also a variant in that passage.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by Hylander »

ἄπιστα here I think means "of doubtful/unreliable/uncertain outcome", maybe with a suggestion that the Thessalians themselves are not to be trusted.

For these things [i.e., Thessalian affairs] of course always were unreliable by nature for all men, and, just as they were, they are for him, too, now.

ἀπαιτεῖν -- better, "demand back."

Μαγνησίαν κεκωλύκασι τειχίζειν -- probably "they have prevented him from fortifying Magnesia."

ἤκουον δ᾽ ἔγωγέ τινων, ὡς οὐδὲ τοὺς λιμένας καὶ τὰς ἀγορὰς ἔτι δώσοιεν αὐτῷ καρποῦσθαι: τὰ γὰρ κοινὰ τὰ Θετταλῶν ἀπὸ τούτων δέοι διοικεῖν, οὐ Φίλιππον λαμβάνειν. -- I myself heard some [said/were saying] that they would no longer give him [the revenues of] the ports and markets to enjoy, [that] it was necessary to manage the common affairs of Thessaly out of these [funds], [that] Philip should not take them.

καταστήσεται here means something like "become": "providing maintenance for his mercenaries will become very tight/get into a very tight spot for him.

In the passage from Andocides, without knowing anything about the context, I think κατέστησαν means just cost: " I didn't want to make more off them than they cost me."
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

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D 1.23
ἀλλὰ μὴν τόν γε Παίονα καὶ τὸν Ἰλλυριὸν καὶ ἁπλῶς τούτους ἅπαντας ἡγεῖσθαι χρὴ αὐτονόμους ἥδιον ἂν καὶ ἐλευθέρους ἢ δούλους εἶναι: καὶ γὰρ ἀήθεις τοῦ κατακούειν τινός εἰσι, καὶ ἅνθρωπος ὑβριστής, ὥς φασιν. καὶ μὰ Δί᾽ οὐδὲν ἄπιστον ἴσως: τὸ γὰρ εὖ πράττειν παρὰ τὴν ἀξίαν ἀφορμὴ τοῦ κακῶς φρονεῖν τοῖς ἀνοήτοις γίγνεται: διόπερ πολλάκις δοκεῖ τὸ φυλάξαι τἀγαθὰ τοῦ κτήσασθαι χαλεπώτερον εἶναι.
But indeed, the Paeonian chief definitely and the Illyrian chief and all of these must simply reason that to be independent and free should be better than to be slaves. For they are unaccustomed to obedience of anyone, and the man is insolent, so they say. And by God, it's not anything unbelievable, likely, for the doing well beyond what is justified births the start of ill thinking for the foolish, because of which the guarding of good possessions often seems to be harder than acquiring them.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

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τόν γε Παίονα καὶ τὸν Ἰλλυριὸν -- isn't this just "the Paeonian", i.e., Paeonians in general? ἥδιον ἂν καὶ ἐλευθέρους ἢ δούλους εἶναι suggests he's talking about the whole population, not just the leaders.

ἁπλῶς modifies ἅπαντας -- "and simply all of these peoples"

ἡγεῖσθαι χρὴ -- "must think/consider"

οὐδὲν ἄπιστον ἴσως -- I think this means "and maybe nothing is uncertain", i.e., maybe the outcome is actually predictable".

τὸ γὰρ εὖ πράττειν παρὰ τὴν ἀξίαν ἀφορμὴ τοῦ κακῶς φρονεῖν τοῖς ἀνοήτοις γίγνεται -- For success [τὸ εὖ πράττειν] beyond what one's ability/capacity would warrant [παρὰ τὴν ἀξίαν] is the start of/leads to [ἀφορμὴ . . . γίγνεται] bad judgment [τοῦ κακῶς φρονεῖν] on the part of the foolish.

διόπερ πολλάκις δοκεῖ τὸ φυλάξαι τἀγαθὰ τοῦ κτήσασθαι χαλεπώτερον εἶναι. -- Therefore, holding on to one's possessions/wealth often seems more difficult than acquiring them.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by Hylander »

Going back a notch, can you explain the syntax of this -- in particular, the moods and tenses of the verbs?

ἤκουον δ᾽ ἔγωγέ τινων, ὡς οὐδὲ τοὺς λιμένας καὶ τὰς ἀγορὰς ἔτι δώσοιεν αὐτῷ καρποῦσθαι: τὰ γὰρ κοινὰ τὰ Θετταλῶν ἀπὸ τούτων δέοι διοικεῖν, οὐ Φίλιππον λαμβάνειν.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by jeidsath »

Hylander wrote:Going back a notch, can you explain the syntax of this -- in particular, the moods and tenses of the verbs?

ἤκουον δ᾽ ἔγωγέ τινων, ὡς οὐδὲ τοὺς λιμένας καὶ τὰς ἀγορὰς ἔτι δώσοιεν αὐτῷ καρποῦσθαι: τὰ γὰρ κοινὰ τὰ Θετταλῶν ἀπὸ τούτων δέοι διοικεῖν, οὐ Φίλιππον λαμβάνειν.
Demosthenes' certain someones would have told him directly:

οὐδὲ τοὺς λιμένας καὶ τὰς ἀγορὰς ἔτι δώσουσι αὐτῷ καρποῦσθαι: τὰ γὰρ κοινὰ τὰ Θετταλῶν ἀπὸ τούτων δεῖ διοικεῖν, οὐ Φίλιππον λαμβάνειν.

καρποῦσθαι -- governed by δώσουσι, which acts as a verb of will or desire (Smyth 1994), subject αὐτῷ (Smyth 1996a., which states that this makes it a simple sentence, meaning that the infinitive phrase can't be independent).

διοκεῖν, λαμβάνειν -- governed by δεῖ

So trying again: I, at least, heard from some ones, that they would not even still give him the ports and the markets to enjoy the profits of, for the league-interests of the Thessalians needed to be administered out of these, not collected by Phillip.
Hylander wrote:τόν γε Παίονα καὶ τὸν Ἰλλυριὸν -- isn't this just "the Paeonian", i.e., Paeonians in general? ἥδιον ἂν καὶ ἐλευθέρους ἢ δούλους εἶναι suggests he's talking about the whole population, not just the leaders.
Here was McQueen:
τὸν Παίονα καὶ τὸν Ἰλλυριόν: see on 13 above. Probably collective singulars, though some scholars, who hold that barbarian peoples ruled by a despot could not be described as ἀήθεις τοῦ κατακούειν τινος, maintain that Demosthenes must be alluding to Paeonian and Illyrian rulers (cf. his use of τὸν Κᾶρα in On the Peace 25 to refer to Idrieus satrap of Caria, and of τὸν Θρᾷκα at Against Aristocrates 133 with reference to Cersobleptes).
That convinced me then. Although now that I think about it, it's easy to imagine peoples who aren't used to obeying a foreign leader, even if they are ruled by a despot.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by Hylander »

for the league-interests of the Thessalians needed to be administered out of these, not collected by Phillip.
It's not the "common interests of the Thessalians" that would be collected by Philip. The verb δέοι is impersonal, but it's awkward to put this into English as an impersonal verb. "for the common interests of the Thessalians should [in their view] be administered out of these [funds], and Philip should not collect them."
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by jeidsath »

Yes. It seems clear in Greek that it's the funds being collected, and I hadn't realized that it wasn't clear in English until you pointed it out. I was wondering why what I put down seemed so awkward.

D 1.24
δεῖ τοίνυν ὑμᾶς, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, τὴν ἀκαιρίαν τὴν ἐκείνου καιρὸν ὑμέτερον νομίσαντας ἑτοίμως συνάρασθαι τὰ πράγματα, καὶ πρεσβευομένους ἐφ᾽ ἃ δεῖ καὶ στρατευομένους αὐτοὺς καὶ παροξύνοντας τοὺς ἄλλους ἅπαντας, λογιζομένους, εἰ Φίλιππος λάβοι καθ᾽ ἡμῶν τοιοῦτον καιρὸν καὶ πόλεμος γένοιτο πρὸς τῇ χώρᾳ, πῶς ἂν αὐτὸν οἴεσθ᾽ ἑτοίμως ἐφ᾽ ὑμᾶς ἐλθεῖν; εἶτ᾽ οὐκ αἰσχύνεσθε, εἰ μηδ᾽ ἃ πάθοιτ᾽ ἄν, εἰ δύναιτ᾽ ἐκεῖνος, ταῦτα ποιῆσαι καιρὸν ἔχοντες οὐ τολμήσετε;
It is necessary for you, men of Athens, considering this very mischance of his to be your chance, to readily take up these matters together, and sending diplomats for what they need to do, and campaigning yourselves, and rousing all of the others, reasoning, if Phillip were to take from us this chance, and war come up to our land, how readily he would come against us? Then are you not ashamed, if while you have the chance, you do not brave to do against him the things that he would have you suffer if he could?
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by jeidsath »

D 1.25
ἔτι τοίνυν, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, μηδὲ τοῦθ᾽ ὑμᾶς λανθανέτω, ὅτι νῦν αἵρεσίς ἐστιν ὑμῖν πότερ᾽ ὑμᾶς ἐκεῖ χρὴ πολεμεῖν ἢ παρ᾽ ὑμῖν ἐκεῖνον. ἐὰν μὲν γὰρ ἀντέχῃ τὰ τῶν Ὀλυνθίων, ὑμεῖς ἐκεῖ πολεμήσετε καὶ τὴν ἐκείνου κακῶς ποιήσετε, τὴν ὑπάρχουσαν καὶ τὴν οἰκείαν ταύτην ἀδεῶς καρπούμενοι: ἂν δ᾽ ἐκεῖνα Φίλιππος λάβῃ, τίς αὐτὸν κωλύσει δεῦρο βαδίζειν; Θηβαῖοι;
Moreover, men of Athens, neither let this be hidden from you, that now the course before you, it being necessary to fight, is whether you fight there, or he bring the fight to you. Should the Olythian region hold out, you shall fight there and despoil what is his, enjoying without fear the fruit of your possessions and this your own land. Should Phillip take them, what shall hinder him from making his way here? Thebes?
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

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καὶ πρεσβευομένους ἐφ᾽ ἃ δεῖ καὶ στρατευομένους αὐτοὺς καὶ παροξύνοντας τοὺς ἄλλους ἅπαντας, -- the first καὶ is not "and". It's καὶ . . . καὶ . . .καὶ, joining together the participles (like "both . . . and . . . "). The structure is:

δεῖ . . . συνάρασθαι,

καὶ πρεσβευομένους . . . καὶ στρατευομένους . . . καὶ παροξύνοντας

ἐφ᾽ ἃ δεῖ -- "what needs to be done", not "what they need to do".

εἰ Φίλιππος λάβοι καθ᾽ ἡμῶν τοιοῦτον καιρὸν -- if Philip were to seize such an opportunity against us

πῶς ἂν αὐτὸν οἴεσθ᾽ ἑτοίμως ἐφ᾽ ὑμᾶς ἐλθεῖν -- "how do you think he would readily come against us?" There's an anacoluthon here: you would expect a statement after λογιζομένους, but instead he frames it more effectively as a rhetorical question.

εἶτ᾽ -- "and so"

πάθοιτ᾽ -- 2d plur. aor. active -- "what you would suffer"

οὐ τολμήσετε; -- instead of an optative after εἰ μηδ᾽, he switches the construction to a future tense verb with a pleonastic οὐ, again a feature of Demosthenes' δεινοτης -- "you don't dare to . . . "
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by Hylander »

ἔτι . . . μηδὲ -- ουκετι/μηδετι -- "no longer"

αἵρεσίς -- "choice", not "course"

αἵρεσίς ἐστιν ὑμῖν πότερ᾽ ὑμᾶς ἐκεῖ χρὴ πολεμεῖν ἢ παρ᾽ ὑμῖν ἐκεῖνον. -- "you have a choice whether you must fight there or he fights on your turf" -- again, a slight anacoluthon: with παρ᾽ ὑμῖν ἐκεῖνον you need to supply πολεμησει, not strictly parallel χρὴ πολεμεῖν.

τὴν ἐκείνου -- γην or χωραν: "his land/territory

τὴν ὑπάρχουσαν καὶ τὴν οἰκείαν -- something like "this land here, your homeland"

ἐκεῖνα -- τὰ τῶν Ὀλυνθίων

τίς αὐτὸν κωλύσει δεῦρο βαδίζειν; Θηβαῖοι; -- "who [not "what'] will prevent him from coming here? The Thebans?" Not "Thebes" -- it answers the question "who?" not "what?". In English we often personify the city ("Thebes"), but I think that usage is rare in ancient Greek, which typically uses the ethnonym. The real actors are the people of Thebes.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by mwh »

ἔτι τοίνυν, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, μηδὲ τοῦθ᾽ ὑμᾶς λανθανέτω,
Joel’s “Moreover, men of Athens, neither let this be hidden from you,” is basically right. The ετι adds another point, and μηδε τουτο go together, “not even this”: “Don’t forget this further point either.”

ὅτι νῦν αἵρεσίς ἐστιν ὑμῖν πότερ᾽ ὑμᾶς ἐκεῖ χρὴ πολεμεῖν ἢ παρ᾽ ὑμῖν ἐκεῖνον.
No anacolouthon, χρη πολεμειν carries over to the second part too: “that now you have a choice as to whether you're to conduct the war over there or he in your territory.”

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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by jeidsath »

I thought that it was a little strange to speak about there being a αἵρεσις of something χρή, so thought I might be able to take just that part as an aside. But there is no difficulty with just taking it as written?

D 1.26
μὴ λίαν πικρὸν εἰπεῖν ᾖ— καὶ συνεισβαλοῦσιν ἑτοίμως. ἀλλὰ Φωκεῖς; οἱ τὴν οἰκείαν οὐχ οἷοί τε ὄντες φυλάττειν, ἐὰν μὴ βοηθήσηθ᾽ ὑμεῖς ἢ ἄλλος τις; ἀλλ᾽, ὦ τᾶν, οὐχὶ βουλήσεται. τῶν ἀτοπωτάτων μέντἂν εἴη, εἰ ἃ νῦν ἄνοιαν ὀφλισκάνων ὅμως ἐκλαλεῖ, ταῦτα δυνηθεὶς μὴ πράξει.
Perhaps it is a very harsh thing to say -- they will even readily join the invasion. Then Phocis? They being unable to defend their own country, should you or someone else not help them?

--But, good man, he shall not wish to.

Of everything crazy, that would be the craziest, if being able to do what he now even indebts himself with folly to speak out, he does not then do.


(I had trouble with ὄντες being a participle, so I made it a rhetorical question, which is likely not correct.)
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by Hylander »

καὶ συνεισβαλοῦσιν ἑτοίμως -- Athens' traditional enemy, the Thebans, from the preceding sentence, of course.

Dilts punctuates with a period after οἱ τὴν οἰκείαν οὐχ οἷοί τε ὄντες φυλάττειν, ἐὰν μὴ βοηθήσηθ᾽ ὑμεῖς.

This is the sarcastic answer to the rhetorical question ἀλλὰ Φωκεῖς; It's cast in the form of a participial phrase to heighten the sarcasm. "But the Phocians? Who can't even defend their own territory without help from you." I suppose you could punctuate with a comma after Φωκεῖς and a question mark after ἐὰν μὴ βοηθήσηθ᾽ ὑμεῖς. But the other punctuation has more oomph, more δεινοτης.

Then he goes on: "Or someone else?" Implying that there is no one else who will come to the aid of the Athenians if they are attacked by Philip.

I doubt mwh (Welcome back!) has gone through all of my other comments, but I'm sure there are more errors lurking there. Take my comments for what they're worth--not much.

τῶν ἀτοπωτάτων μέντἂν εἴη -- "it would be one of the strangest things", "this would be extremely strange"

ἄνοιαν ὀφλισκάνων -- "acquiring a reputation for folly", see LSJ ὀφλισκάνω.

ὅμως -- "nevertheless", i.e., "which he now, [though] acquiring a reputation for folly, nevertheless blurts out", "which he now blurts out even though it is giving him a reputation for folly".
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by jeidsath »

Hylander wrote:This is the sarcastic answer to the rhetorical question ἀλλὰ Φωκεῖς; It's cast in the form of a participial phrase to heighten the sarcasm. "But the Phocians? Who can't even defend their own territory without help from you."
Thanks, that makes perfect sense. McQueen on the punctuation:
E. I. McQueen wrote:ἢ ἄλλος τις: to be construed as part of the preceding sentence, and parallel to ὑμεῖς. If Demosthenes had anyone in particular in mind, he may be thinking of the Spartans and Achaeans who, like Athens, sent help to Phocis in 352 B.C. Some scholars detach ἢ ἄλλος τις from this sentence and interpret it as yet another question parallel to Θηβαῖοι and Φωκεῖς, and providing yet another possible answer to the original question, 'who will stop Philip marching on Attica?'. However, though the orator answers the questions about the Thebans and Phocians, he does not do so in this particular instance and, in any case, a third question ought to be couched in the form ἀλλ’ ἄλλος τις; rather than ἢ ἄλλος τις; (cf. above ἀλλὰ Φωκεῖς; rather than ἢ Φωκεῖς;).
D 1.27
Δημοσθένης wrote:ἀλλὰ μὴν ἡλίκα γ᾽ ἐστὶν τὰ διάφορ᾽ ἐνθάδ᾽ ἢ ἐκεῖ πολεμεῖν, οὐδὲ λόγου προσδεῖν ἡγοῦμαι. εἰ γὰρ ὑμᾶς δεήσειεν αὐτοὺς τριάκονθ᾽ ἡμέρας μόνας ἔξω γενέσθαι, καὶ ὅσ᾽ ἀνάγκη στρατοπέδῳ χρωμένους τῶν ἐκ τῆς χώρας λαμβάνειν, μηδενὸς ὄντος ἐν αὐτῇ πολεμίου λέγω, πλείον᾽ ἂν οἶμαι ζημιωθῆναι τοὺς γεωργοῦντας ὑμῶν ἢ ὅσ᾽ εἰς ἅπαντα τὸν πρὸ τοῦ πόλεμον δεδαπάνησθε. εἰ δὲ δὴ πόλεμός τις ἥξει, πόσα χρὴ νομίσαι ζημιώσεσθαι; καὶ πρόσεσθ᾽ ἡ ὕβρις καὶ ἔθ᾽ ἡ τῶν πραγμάτων αἰσχύνη, οὐδεμιᾶς ἐλάττων ζημίας τοῖς γε σώφροσιν.
But indeed, of the magnitude of the difference between fighting here or fighting there, I don't think that I need to say anymore. For if you should be forced [to campaign outside the city] for just thirty days, using the supplies you take from the countryside, so much as is necessary for a camp -- I speak of no enemy being in the field -- I think that the farmers among you would lose more than you have expended in all the war up until now. And if indeed, some enemy shall come, how much do you think you would lose? And in addition to the outrage there is also the shame of the affair, not the smallest punishment for the wise at least.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by Hylander »

ἡλίκα γ᾽ ἐστὶν τὰ διάφορ᾽ -- "how great are the differences". Neuter plural.

οὐδὲ λόγου προσδεῖν ἡγοῦμαι -- "I don't think it's necessary to add word[s]/an argument/a point"

ὑμᾶς . . . αὐτοὺς -- "you yourselves"

στρατοπέδῳ χρωμένους -- χραομαι has a wide range of meanings, far beyond just "use", and takes a dative, not an accusative, complement; see LSJ. I think this phrase in this context means something like "living in a camp" or "living in the conditions of a camp." στρατοπέδῳ, not ὅσ᾽, is not the complement of χρωμένους, which is either generic: "soldiers living in the conditions of a camp" or perhaps specific "[you] living in the conditions of a camp".

λαμβάνειν is the verbal complement of both δεήσειεν and ἀνάγκη. "For if you yourselves were to have to spend just thirty days outside [of Attica] and to take from the produce of the homeland what it is/would be necessary for soldiers/you living in the conditions of a camp to take, . . . "

μηδενὸς ὄντος ἐν αὐτῇ πολεμίου λέγω, -- λέγω might here be translated "I mean": "-- I mean with no enemy present in the homeland --". ἐν αὐτῇ refers back to τῆς χώρας, i.e., "the Attic homeland".

εἰ δὲ δὴ πόλεμός τις ἥξει, -- "But [δὲ δὴ, contrasting emphatically with the previous assertion, not "and"] if a war [not "enemy"] comes here . . . "

πόσα χρὴ νομίσαι ζημιώσεσθαι -- "how much must one think you/they will lose?"

καὶ πρόσεσθ᾽ ἡ ὕβρις -- "And in addition to that there is the outrage/humiliation": ἡ ὕβρις is the subject of πρόσεσθ᾽ (προσεστι).

καὶ ἔθ᾽ ἡ τῶν πραγμάτων αἰσχύνη, -- "and what's more, the shame of the situation".

οὐδεμιᾶς ἐλάττων ζημίας τοῖς γε σώφροσιν. -- "which is less than no loss for the wise", i.e., "which is as great as any material loss".

It's probably best to translate ζημιωθῆναι, ζημιώσεσθαι and ζημίας consistently. "Punishment" isn't appropriate in this context. "Loss" is the mot juste.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by Hylander »

though the orator answers the questions about the Thebans and Phocians, he does not do so in this particular instance and, in any case, a third question ought to be couched in the form ἀλλ’ ἄλλος τις; rather than ἢ ἄλλος τις; (cf. above ἀλλὰ Φωκεῖς; rather than ἢ Φωκεῖς;).
I think McQueen's note misses the point. The previous questions suggest, only to reject, possible though unlikely alternatives. This question is "or is there someone else?" It seems to me that the shift in the form of the question from ἀλλὰ Φωκεῖς; to ἢ ἄλλος τις; drives home the point that there is no one else (in addition to avoiding the repetitive ἀλλ’ ἄλλος). Unlike the other two alternatives, ἢ ἄλλος τις; answers itself.

"The Thebans? . . . The Phocians, then? . . . Or someone else?"
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by jeidsath »

Thanks for the help with χρωμένους. I feel like I understand it now, but I'm not sure why you (and McQueen agrees) both say that λαμβάνειν is governed by "both δεήσειεν and ἀνάγκη". Why not just ἀνάγκη?

D 1.28
Δημοσθένης wrote:πάντα δὴ ταῦτα δεῖ συνιδόντας ἅπαντας βοηθεῖν καὶ ἀπωθεῖν ἐκεῖσε τὸν πόλεμον, τοὺς μὲν εὐπόρους, ἵν᾽ ὑπὲρ τῶν πολλῶν ὧν καλῶς ποιοῦντες ἔχουσι μίκρ᾽ ἀναλίσκοντες τὰ λοιπὰ καρπῶνται ἀδεῶς, τοὺς δ᾽ ἐν ἡλικίᾳ, ἵνα τὴν τοῦ πολεμεῖν ἐμπειρίαν ἐν τῇ Φιλίππου χώρᾳ κτησάμενοι φοβεροὶ φύλακες τῆς οἰκείας ἀκεραίου γένωνται, τοὺς δὲ λέγοντας, ἵν᾽ αἱ τῶν πεπολιτευμένων αὐτοῖς εὔθυναι ῥᾴδιαι γένωνται, ὡς ὁποῖ᾽ ἄττ᾽ ἂν ὑμᾶς περιστῇ τὰ πράγματα, τοιοῦτοι κριταὶ καὶ τῶν πεπραγμένων αὐτοῖς ἔσεσθε. χρηστὰ δ᾽ εἴη παντὸς εἵνεκα.
It's necessary then for all those knowing all of these things, to assist and to hold the war over there, some of them being well off, expending a small amount on behalf of the much that they are quite welcome to possess, in order to harvest without fear for the future, some of them of age [for war], in order that having gained the experience of war in Phillip's country they will become terrifying guards of their own country untouched by war, some of them orators, in order that the audits of their management activities shall occur easily, as whatever sorts of results these activities may bring you, you shall be in this way judges also of what they have done. So I hope the results will be serviceable in all ways.

PS: As I was typing up the above, on the final paragraph of the first Olynthiac, my wife brought me the new copy of "On the Mysteries" that had just arrived on the doorstep.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by Hylander »

Does this make the structure clear?

εἰ γὰρ ὑμᾶς δεήσειεν . . .

ἔξω γενέσθαι, καὶ [λαμβάνειν]

ὅσ᾽ ἀνάγκη στρατοπέδῳ χρωμένους τῶν ἐκ τῆς χώρας λαμβάνειν,

An infinitive parallel to γενέσθαι is needed after καὶ, but an infinitive is also needed as a complement to ἀνάγκη. Greek does this relatively frequently -- i.e., having a word do double duty -- where English would require repetition of a word.

ἀπωθεῖν -- "push away"

τοὺς μὲν εὐπόρους, ἵν᾽ ὑπὲρ τῶν πολλῶν ὧν καλῶς ποιοῦντες ἔχουσι μίκρ᾽ ἀναλίσκοντες τὰ λοιπὰ καρπῶνται ἀδεῶς, --

"[Everyone should cooperate in averting war in the homeland by waging it in the Chalcidice],

"the well-to-do, so that, by expending small amounts on behalf of of what they have/have acquired in doing well for themselves, they can enjoy the fruits of their success without concern/worries in the future,

"those who are of age [for war], so that, having gained experience of warfare in Philip's territory, they can become formidable guardians of the unharmed home territory,

"the politicians/orators, so that their audits after their terms of office of what they have done politically/their political activities will be easy, as/since you will be the sort of judges of what they have done as the circumstances that surround you, i.e., you will judge them favorably or unfavorably in your review of their activities depending on the circumstances in which you find yourselves."

Athenian officials had to stand for audits (εὔθυναι) of their activities at the end of their terms of office.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by jeidsath »

Hylander wrote:you will judge them favorably or unfavorably in your review of their activities depending on the circumstances in which you find yourselves
That makes a lot of sense. I was confused what τοιοῦτοι κριταὶ was about.

My translation doesn't capture it, but I felt that last paragraph had a great deal of momentum. And the entire speech has a feeling of a whole where every piece fits into every other piece. I don't think that I could point to any modern political speeches that give me a similar feel. I feel like I have to compare this to some speech by Abraham Lincoln to do it justice. But Demosthenes' speech here is completely different from Lincoln's speeches. He is far more concrete than Lincoln ever is. This speech was a relentless exercise in persuasion, pounding his points in on the hearer.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

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Lincoln' famous speeches -- Gettysburg and the 2d Inaugural Address -- are more general, addressing the larger circumstances of the war, and not to a specific policy initiative. This is a speech to an assembly about to vote on a specific measure.
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Re: Demosthenes, First Olynthiac

Post by jeidsath »

True. But I think his more specific speeches may actually be less similar. The Lincoln-Douglas debates, for example, which have a completely different tone.

The one speech that I was thinking of in particular though, was Lincoln's Temperance Address, which was really a rally speech for like-minded supporters, but had a very composed (though apocalyptic) style, and goes through the history and failures of the temperance movement (polemically). It's probably more like a sermon than anything else that I've come across by Lincoln (though I haven't read nearly enough of his speeches).

For whatever reason, that is what came to mind. Reading through it now, I only see one or two parallels that might have given me the idea: Lincoln's frequent use of "but some say" to introduce audience objections, and maybe the paragraph "That that success is so much greater now than heretofore, is doubtless owing to rational causes...".
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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