How to spell a name

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jeidsath
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How to spell a name

Post by jeidsath »

I came across this in Rouse's Reader and was able to solve it only with some effort. I'm sure that quite a few of you have seen it before, so no spoilers. But once you've solved it, maybe post a line spoken by said character from a Greek Drama that features him (in English or in Greek)?

However, feel free to ask any questions that you'd like.
ἐγὼ πέφυκα γραμμάτων μὲν οὐκ ἴδρις,
μορφὰς δὲ λέξω καὶ σαφῆ τεκμήρια.
κύκλος τις ὡς τόρνοισιν ἐκμετρούμενος,
οὗτος δ' ἔχει σημεῖον ἐν μέσῳ σαφές·
τὸ δεύτερον δὲ πρῶτα μὲν γραμμαὶ δύο,
ταύτας διείργει δ' ἐν μέσαις ἄλλη μία·
τρίτον δὲ βόστρυχός τις ὣς εἱλιγμένος·
τὸ δ' αὖ τέταρτον ἣ μὲν εἰς ὀρθὸν μία,
λοξαὶ δ' ἐπ´ αὐτῆς τρεῖς κατεστηριγμέναι
εἰσίν· τὸ πέμπτον δ' οὐκ ἐν εὐμαρεῖ φράσαι·
γραμμαὶ γάρ εἰσιν ἐκ διεστώτων δύο,
αὗται δὲ συντρέχουσιν εἰς μίαν βάσιν·
τὸ λοίσθιον δὲ τῷ τρίτῳ προσεμφερές.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

mwh
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Re: How to spell a name

Post by mwh »

ἔσαινεν οὐρᾷ μ’ ὦτε κυλαίνων κάτω.

I don't think that qualifies as a spoiler.

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bedwere
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Re: How to spell a name

Post by bedwere »

δράσω καὶ τάδε καὶ πάνθ᾽ ὁπόσ᾽ ἂν
μέλλω πράσσειν πρόσφορά θ᾽ ὑμῖν
καὶ τῷ κατὰ γῆς, ὃς νέον ἔρρει,
πρὸς χάριν· οὐ δεῖ μ᾽ ἀποκάμνειν.

:?:

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jeidsath
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Re: How to spell a name

Post by jeidsath »

Both correct, of course.

mwh's quote comes from the entry on κυλαινων here (top right): https://archive.org/stream/hesychiialex ... #page/n491

LSJ for σαίνω:
“ἔσαινεν οὐρᾷ με” S. Fr.687 (ἔσαινεν οὐράν wagged his tail, Hemsterhuis, cf. Sch.rec.A. Th.704, Sch.rec.Theoc.2.109).
Here is the 1888 LSJ on the same:
ἔσαιν’ ἐπ’ οὐράν Soph. Fr. 619 (where it is proposed to read ἔσαινεν οὐράν wagged his tail,--a construct. occurring in Schol. Aesch. Theb. 704, Theocr. 2. 109)
I like the 1888 version more than the later revision for this article. If οὐρᾷ is the most probable reading, based on different quotations with οὐρᾷ, fine. But then it's circular reasoning to cite S. Fr. 687 for this usage. Also, the 1888 version is so much clearer and gives the original codex version.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

Hylander
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Re: How to spell a name

Post by Hylander »

Is this too early for a lunate sigma?

1888 would be just LS.
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jeidsath
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Re: How to spell a name

Post by jeidsath »

The Curse of Artemisia uses a transitional lunate sigma. It must have been common in handwriting before it became common on coins or inscriptions. I took the description as lunate, but I suppose it could refer to any curved version of sigma in handwriting.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

mwh
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Re: How to spell a name

Post by mwh »

If I’d given “the original codex version” I’ve have written ἔσταιεπ’οὐραν ὦτι κυαλάννων καὶ τὸ. That would have been a bit harder for Joel to identify—and to amend.

It would have been more fun to have given one of these two riffs:
Σκυθικῷ τε τόξῳ <τὸ> τρίτον ἦν προσεμφερές (Agathon)
τρίτον δ᾿ ἑλικτῷ βοστρύχῳ προσεμφερές (Theodectes, alluding to both the earlier versions).
Inscriptional sigmas are not lunate till much later. Agathon's Scythian bow clearly represents the Ionic 4-bar form rather than older Attic 3-bar. But is our text's βόστρυχός τις ὣς εἱλιγμένος 3-bar or 4-bar?

In the same vein as the OP, here’s a hexameter:
τοὔνομα θηταρωαλφασανυμυαλφαχειουσαν.
Who am I?

Hylander
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Re: How to spell a name

Post by Hylander »

φημὶ γὰρ ἐγὼ εἶναι τὸ δίκαιον οὐκ ἄλλο τι ἢ τὸ τοῦ κρείττονος συμφέρον.
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jeidsath
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Re: How to spell a name

Post by jeidsath »

An answer to mwh's puzzle (cross-posted with Hylander whose answer is a complete spoiler :D ): εἰ μὴ πρότερος ἑωράκη αὐτὸν ἢ ἐκεῖνος ἐμέ, ἄφωνος ἂν γενέσθαι

I wasn't trying to suggest an emendation to mwh's other quote. I had reconstructed "ἔσταιεπ’οὐραν ὦτι κυαλάννων καὶ τὸ" from the Loeb notes, which made me curious how the Loeb version was arrived at. Looking everything up, the LSJ entry struck me as strange, and sure enough it was a revision of something earlier. My criticism was of the LSJ revision, not of the reconstruction, which seems fine, though theoretical. Jones (?) should have left the 1888 version of the LS article or removed the fragment as a source from the entry (probably the second).
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

mwh
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Re: How to spell a name

Post by mwh »

It was a long and winding road that led to the Loeb version, which I hadn’t seen when I first posted: how EASY everything is now. Editions of Hesychius will help retrace earlier steps. If it weren’t for the given attribution to Sophocles’ Phaedra, there’d be no reason to accept the reconstruction adopted by Lloyd-Jones (which is not quite as I gave it). Barrett in his Hippolytus jibbed at (οὐρᾷ) μ’ (hypercritically I think, and so evidently did Ll-J) and daggered οὐρὰν as irremediably corrupt.

It was a long and winding road that led to LSJ too. Finding fault with it is not very hard but not very profitable either. It’s miles better than any other Greek lexicon, including its own earlier incarnations, and we’re extremely fortunate to have it, and in English at that.

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Re: How to spell a name

Post by jeidsath »

Your variant was actually what made me interested. I was going to make a joke about how you got the riddle correct, but that the idea of Kerberos having ὦτε was problematic. And then I got distracted by the rest.

Now that you mention Barrett, I see the reference on page 24. His footnote is very helpful in understanding the mechanism for the reconstruction, which had mostly passed me by.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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