Beginner, grammar questions

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erik550c
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Beginner, grammar questions

Post by erik550c »

Hello. I have worked myself through 300 pages of the Basic Greek in 30 Minutes a Day self-study, and now I am 150 pages through Dr. Mounce's Basics of Biblical Greek (I have arrived at verbs, the book separates the nouns first then verbs). I am slowest at writing Greek, quicker at reading and pronouncing. Can someone please review the following sentences and correct me so I learn the language better? I am using the Gentium Unicode Greek font with a Polytonic keyboard. I'm hoping that everyone should be able to view my text. Thank you!

1. καλῳ παντί αὐτῷ λέγει. I am trying to say "Good to all he spoke to." What position are my adjectives in, attributive, substantival, or predicate? Do I need to add a definite article?

2. ὅ οὑ γινωσκετε τοῦ ἄνθρωπου τοῦτου καρδιαν. I am trying to say "Who would not know this man's heart." I realize that the verb is present active indicative, I haven't learned another way of saying it well enough yet. Should heart be in accusative or genitive?

3. αὺτός μακάριος και θεῷ αγαπῃ αὺτόν. I am trying to say "He is blessed and God loves him." Is accusative okay for the last personal pronoun?

Thank you for reviewing this! I won't be able to respond for a week or two, but I will be awaiting anyone who can review this.

Erik

Gonzalo
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Re: Beginner, grammar questions

Post by Gonzalo »

Hallo, Erik,

I am going to correct your sentences with help of the original English and then I will give you a little better Greek version of your own sentences. Mainly there is a difference among αὐτός/οὗτος, which neither is respected by all author buy one should bear in mind anyway.

1. καλῳ παντί αὐτῷ λέγει.-> Καλὸν παντὶ αὐτὸς ἔλεγεν.
Your adjective is in predicate position, for it depends of the transitive verb. In case you add the article, it would mean something like "the good things" or "what is good". Without the article, it can get the meaning of adverb, in which case it would be more elegant the plain adverb:
Καλῶς ἔλεγε οὗτος ἅπασιν. (He spoke well to everybody.)
Καλὸν ἔλεγε οὗτος ἅπασιν. (He spoke/said good to everbody.)
Τὸ καλὸν ἔλγε οὗτος ἅπασιν. (He spoke/said the good to everybody.)
Also, in your frase, you have the past tense. In this verb, the imperfect is formed taking the λέγ-, putting the augment (maybe you haven't learnt it so far) and adding the desinences.
ἔ λεγ ον ἐ λέγ ο μεν
ἔ λεγ ε ς ἐ λέγ ε τε
ἔ λεγ ε (ν) ἔ λεγ ον
This is the imperfect (=he was saying). The aorist (he said, he spoke) would be from another root:
εἶπ ον εἴπ ο μεν
εἶπ ες εἴπ ε τε
εἶπ ε(ν) εἶπ ον


2. ὅ οὑ γινωσκετε τοῦ ἄνθρωπου τοῦτου καρδιαν.
Τίς οὐ γιγνώσκοι ἂν τὴν τούτου τοῦ ἀνθρώπου καρδίαν;
To express the potentiallity, you should use the optative mood, which you will learn at the given time. It can be accompanied with the modal particle ἄν.
Heart should be in accusative, as you correctly wrote.
And last, ὅ is the relative pronoun but you need here the interrogative pronoun τίς (same for masculine, feminine but neuter τί).

3. αὺτός μακάριος και θεῷ αγαπῃ αὺτόν.
Αὐτὸς μακάριος καὶ θεὸς ἀγαπᾷ αὐτόν.
The accusative is right for the pronoun αὐτός. As I said above, the distinction among αὐτός οὗτος was not always clear and both words became synonymous buy οὗτος means "he" (demonstrative pronoun), while αὐτός means "himself" (reflexive pronoun).
It would be just a little better:
Οὗτος μακάριος καὶ θεὸς ἀγαπᾷ τοῦτον.

Ask whatever troubles you in your sentences, even if I've not been 100% clear.

P.S.: I've read that you are learning biblical Greek. So the distinction between οὗτος αὐτός is definitely not important at all!

erik550c
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Re: Beginner, grammar questions

Post by erik550c »

Thank you for your helpful response. I forgot to mention that I am learning Koine Biblical Greek, I see you noticed. I am not familiar with using οὗτος to mean "He." Thanks for the tip. I was taught that it is a demonstrative meaning singular: this, plural: these. I am familiar with αὐτός translated with the reflexive pronoun (himself). Regarding number 2 below, quote: "ὅ is the relative pronoun but you need here the interrogative pronoun τίς" I made a mistake! Interrogative for asking questions, and relative pronoun for referring to people and things, right. Regarding number 3, quote: "My writing: αὺτός μακάριος και θεῷ αγαπῃ αὺτόν. Your answer: Αὐτὸς μακάριος καὶ θεὸς ἀγαπᾷ αὐτόν." I wrote αγαπῃ instead of your suggestion ἀγαπᾷ. My mistake. But why is θεὸς in nominative instead of in dative showing who God loves? Isn't the subject Αὐτὸς? Can there be two subjects? Regarding what you wrote, quote: "τὴν τούτου τοῦ ἀνθρώπου καρδίαν." I am unable to write this well at this point. I can read it just fine, but I don't know why the definite article is accusative and matching καρδίαν, but is not directly preceding καρδίαν. I would've used a genitive definite article to match τούτου. I can see that I am not using enough of the definite article in my writings, though.

I really appreciate your help! I was able to check today, but it will be a week or two before I can check again.

Thanks again!
Erik
Gonzalo wrote:Hallo, Erik,

I am going to correct your sentences with help of the original English and then I will give you a little better Greek version of your own sentences. Mainly there is a difference among αὐτός/οὗτος, which neither is respected by all author buy one should bear in mind anyway.

1. καλῳ παντί αὐτῷ λέγει.-> Καλὸν παντὶ αὐτὸς ἔλεγεν.
Your adjective is in predicate position, for it depends of the transitive verb. In case you add the article, it would mean something like "the good things" or "what is good". Without the article, it can get the meaning of adverb, in which case it would be more elegant the plain adverb:
Καλῶς ἔλεγε οὗτος ἅπασιν. (He spoke well to everybody.)
Καλὸν ἔλεγε οὗτος ἅπασιν. (He spoke/said good to everbody.)
Τὸ καλὸν ἔλγε οὗτος ἅπασιν. (He spoke/said the good to everybody.)
Also, in your frase, you have the past tense. In this verb, the imperfect is formed taking the λέγ-, putting the augment (maybe you haven't learnt it so far) and adding the desinences.
ἔ λεγ ον ἐ λέγ ο μεν
ἔ λεγ ε ς ἐ λέγ ε τε
ἔ λεγ ε (ν) ἔ λεγ ον
This is the imperfect (=he was saying). The aorist (he said, he spoke) would be from another root:
εἶπ ον εἴπ ο μεν
εἶπ ες εἴπ ε τε
εἶπ ε(ν) εἶπ ον


2. ὅ οὑ γινωσκετε τοῦ ἄνθρωπου τοῦτου καρδιαν.
Τίς οὐ γιγνώσκοι ἂν τὴν τούτου τοῦ ἀνθρώπου καρδίαν;
To express the potentiallity, you should use the optative mood, which you will learn at the given time. It can be accompanied with the modal particle ἄν.
Heart should be in accusative, as you correctly wrote.
And last, ὅ is the relative pronoun but you need here the interrogative pronoun τίς (same for masculine, feminine but neuter τί).

3. αὺτός μακάριος και θεῷ αγαπῃ αὺτόν.
Αὐτὸς μακάριος καὶ θεὸς ἀγαπᾷ αὐτόν.
The accusative is right for the pronoun αὐτός. As I said above, the distinction among αὐτός οὗτος was not always clear and both words became synonymous buy οὗτος means "he" (demonstrative pronoun), while αὐτός means "himself" (reflexive pronoun).
It would be just a little better:
Οὗτος μακάριος καὶ θεὸς ἀγαπᾷ τοῦτον.

Ask whatever troubles you in your sentences, even if I've not been 100% clear.

P.S.: I've read that you are learning biblical Greek. So the distinction between οὗτος αὐτός is definitely not important at all!

Gonzalo
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Re: Beginner, grammar questions

Post by Gonzalo »

I'm so glad that it was useful and don't hesitate to post your questions, because you will find here a very useful resource for your studies! Regarding the other questions:

1.-
But why is θεὸς in nominative instead of in dative showing who God loves? Isn't the subject Αὐτὸς? Can there be two subjects?
Answer: There are two sentences connected by means of the conjunction καί.
Αὐτὸς μακάριος καὶ ὁ θεὸς ἀγαπᾷ αὐτόν.

First sentence: Αὐτός ἐστι μακάριος. Sentence with its subject (αὐτός). He is blessed.
Second sentence: Ὁ θεὸς ἀγαπᾷ αὐτόν. Sentence with its subject (θεός). God loves him.

(Side note: ἀγαπάω is a contract verb in -άω and from ἀγαπάει it becomes ἀγαπᾷ.)

2.-
"τὴν τούτου τοῦ ἀνθρώπου καρδίαν." I am unable to write this well at this point. I can read it just fine, but I don't know why the definite article is accusative and matching καρδίαν, but is not directly preceding καρδίαν. I would've used a genitive definite article to match τούτου. I can see that I am not using enough of the definite article in my writings, though.
Heart should be in the accusative. As you note, you are not using enough the definite article, which in this case I would say that is the correct usage because you are speaking about a concrete heart (man's heart). In case you use the definite article, the adjective -or genitive in this case- should be between article and noun. In other words: the adjective or genitive should take *another* article, like in these examples. Γνωρίζω τὴν καρδίαν. With genitive: Γνωρίζω τὴν καρδίαν τὴν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου. Γνωρίζω τὴν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου καρδίαν. With adjective: Γνωρίζω τὴν καρδίαν τὴν καλήν. Γνωρίζω τὴν καλὴν τὴν καρδίαν. But you wouldn't need "extra article" if the genitive or adjective comes between the "original" article and the noun.

erik550c
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Re: Beginner, grammar questions

Post by erik550c »

Thank you, again. Do you mind helping me with a little more Greek? I wrote the following, using either predicate and attributive. Which way should I use? I am trying to say, "At the moment/now I am a good man."
1. νῦν εἰμί ὁ ἄνθρωπος ἀγαθός. Predicate, are my cases okay?
2. νῦν εἰμί ὁ ἀγαθός ἄνθρωπος. Attributive, are my cases okay?

The following sentence I didn't create:

3. ὅπου εἰμὶ ἐγὼ ὑμεῖς οὐ δύνασθε ἐλθεῖν. This is supposed to say, "Where I am you are not able to go." But why are both ἐγὼ and ὑμεῖς nominative? "Where I am" contains the subject, but why is ὑμεῖς nominative, too. This is not a sentence connected with a conjunction (kai). Shouldn't ὑμεῖς be ὑμᾶς?

Thanks again! I will check back here.
Erik
Gonzalo wrote:I'm so glad that it was useful and don't hesitate to post your questions, because you will find here a very useful resource for your studies! Regarding the other questions:

1.-
But why is θεὸς in nominative instead of in dative showing who God loves? Isn't the subject Αὐτὸς? Can there be two subjects?
Answer: There are two sentences connected by means of the conjunction καί.
Αὐτὸς μακάριος καὶ ὁ θεὸς ἀγαπᾷ αὐτόν.

First sentence: Αὐτός ἐστι μακάριος. Sentence with its subject (αὐτός). He is blessed.
Second sentence: Ὁ θεὸς ἀγαπᾷ αὐτόν. Sentence with its subject (θεός). God loves him.

(Side note: ἀγαπάω is a contract verb in -άω and from ἀγαπάει it becomes ἀγαπᾷ.)

2.-
"τὴν τούτου τοῦ ἀνθρώπου καρδίαν." I am unable to write this well at this point. I can read it just fine, but I don't know why the definite article is accusative and matching καρδίαν, but is not directly preceding καρδίαν. I would've used a genitive definite article to match τούτου. I can see that I am not using enough of the definite article in my writings, though.
Heart should be in the accusative. As you note, you are not using enough the definite article, which in this case I would say that is the correct usage because you are speaking about a concrete heart (man's heart). In case you use the definite article, the adjective -or genitive in this case- should be between article and noun. In other words: the adjective or genitive should take *another* article, like in these examples. Γνωρίζω τὴν καρδίαν. With genitive: Γνωρίζω τὴν καρδίαν τὴν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου. Γνωρίζω τὴν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου καρδίαν. With adjective: Γνωρίζω τὴν καρδίαν τὴν καλήν. Γνωρίζω τὴν καλὴν τὴν καρδίαν. But you wouldn't need "extra article" if the genitive or adjective comes between the "original" article and the noun.

Gonzalo
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Re: Beginner, grammar questions

Post by Gonzalo »

Hi, Erik!

both sentences are right and I don't see where they could trouble you but ask if you have any concrete doubt. For the moment, they are fine.

The other sentence (John 7:34; min. 46:46 of this recording) has a subordinate clause (sentences beginning with a relative pronoun, adverb,...) and accordingly may have its own subject.

ὅπου εἰμὶ ἐγὼ, ὑμεῖς οὐ δύνασθε ἐλθεῖν.

If you see the comma between ἐγώ and ὑμεῖς the things should get more clear.

1.- ἐκεῖ εἰμὶ ἐγώ would be one sentence and then we have
2.- ὑμεῖς οὐ δύνασθε ἐλθεῖν.

We can connect both sentences 1.- and 2.- by means of ὅπου (which substitutes ἐκεῖ) and then we have:
ὅπου εἰμὶ ἐγώ, ὑμεῖς οὐ δύνασθε ἐλθεῖν.

Best wishes and good luck which your studies,
Gonzalo

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Re: Beginner, grammar questions

Post by Timothée »

erik550c wrote:I am trying to say, "At the moment/now I am a good man."
1. νῦν εἰμί ὁ ἄνθρωπος ἀγαθός. Predicate, are my cases okay?
2. νῦν εἰμί ὁ ἀγαθός ἄνθρωπος. Attributive, are my cases okay?
Why the definite article? You imply that you are not trying to say, “I am the good man.”

The accent should be ἀγαθὸς in the second sentence. Εἰμί is an enklitikon, so νῦν εἰμι (but see below).

You seem to follow the English word order. The word order is really a thing of its own, with many variations according to emphasis and Sprachgefühl, but one would tend to put the predicate at the end. The first sentence of the first lesson of Pontén’s Elementary Greek: Ὁ χρόνος διδάσκαλος τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἐστίν.

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Re: Beginner, grammar questions

Post by jeidsath »

The crowd says of Jesus, in John 7:12 -- Ἀγαθός ἐστιν. He is a good man. A reply to that being said about you might be -- νῦν δὲ ἀγαθός εἰμι. Now (as opposed to another time), I am a good man. Herodotus might have said -- δῆλόν ἐστί σε τὸ παραυτίκα ἀγαθὸς ὂντα. It's clear that for the moment you are good.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

erik550c
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Re: Beginner, grammar questions

Post by erik550c »

Timothée wrote:
erik550c wrote:I am trying to say, "At the moment/now I am a good man."
1. νῦν εἰμί ὁ ἄνθρωπος ἀγαθός. Predicate, are my cases okay?
2. νῦν εἰμί ὁ ἀγαθός ἄνθρωπος. Attributive, are my cases okay?
Why the definite article? You imply that you are not trying to say, “I am the good man.”
So if I am understanding correctly I can write that sentence without the definite article and it will sound okay (and without implying the good man?

And yes, I did follow English word order. Time will teach me!

Thank you

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