Strabo 17.1.27 genetive

Here you can discuss all things Ancient Greek. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get help with a difficult passage of Greek, and more.
Post Reply
daivid
Administrator
Posts: 2744
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:51 pm
Location: ὁ τοῦ βασιλέως λίθος, London, Europe
Contact:

Strabo 17.1.27 genetive

Post by daivid »

νυνὶ μὲν οὖν ἐστι πανέρημος ἡ πόλις, τὸ ἱερὸν ἔχουσα τῷ Αἰγυπτίῳ τρόπῳ κατεσκευασμένον ἀρχαῖον, ἔχον πολλὰ τεκμήρια τῆς Καμβύσου μανίας καὶ ἱεροσυλίας, ὃς τὰ μὲν πυρὶ τὰ δὲ σιδήρῳ διελωβᾶτο τῶν ἱερῶν, ἀκρωτηριάζων καὶ περικαίων, καθάπερ καὶ τοὺς ὀβελίσκους, ὧν δύο καὶ εἰς Ῥώμην ἐκομίσθησαν οἱ μὴ κεκακωμένοι τελέως, ἄλλοι δ᾽ εἰσὶ κἀκεῖ καὶ ἐν Θήβαις, τῇ νῦν Διοσπόλει, οἱ μὲν ἑστῶτες ἀκμὴν πυρίβρωτοι οἱ δὲ καὶ κείμενοι.

The bit that is giving me problems is:
ὃς τὰ μὲν πυρὶ τὰ δὲ σιδήρῳ διελωβᾶτο τῶν ἱερῶν, ἀκρωτηριάζων καὶ περικαίων,
"who both by fire and by sledge hammers defaced the temples, mutilating and scorching (them)

I don't understand why τῶν ἱερῶν is genitive - I would have expected accusitive.
I really don't understand why ἀκρωτηριάζων καὶ περικαίων is genitive - it is Cambyses that is doing the mutilating so shouldn't it be nominative?
I translated σιδήρῳ as sledge hammers as the context suggests some kind of iron tool but the translation at Perseus translates it as violence. Is that more correct?
Finally I don't understand why Strabo added ἀκρωτηριάζων. It seems to me that here it means much the same as διελωβᾶτο. Isn't it redundant?

Any pointers would be much appreciated
λονδον

User avatar
bedwere
Global Moderator
Posts: 5101
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: Didacopoli in California
Contact:

Re: Strabo 17.1.27 genetive

Post by bedwere »

It seems that τῶν ἱερῶν refers to τὰ μὲν ... τὰ δὲ ..., while ἀκρωτηριάζων καὶ περικαίων explain how the destruction was carried out, forming a chiasmus with πυρὶ τὰ δὲ σιδήρῳ.

Hylander
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 2504
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:16 pm

Re: Strabo 17.1.27 genetive

Post by Hylander »

I really don't understand why ἀκρωτηριάζων καὶ περικαίων is genitive
These are nominative present participles, not genitive.
Bill Walderman

polemistes
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 91
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:31 pm

Re: Strabo 17.1.27 genetive

Post by polemistes »

And also:

"τὰ μὲν πυρὶ τὰ δὲ σιδήρῳ διελωβᾶτο τῶν ἱερῶν"

notice the τὰ μὲν ... τὰ δὲ construction. It is not "both by fire and by iron", but some (of the temples) by fire and some (of the temples) by iron. This explains the partitive genitive of ἱερῶν as bedwere points out.

daivid
Administrator
Posts: 2744
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:51 pm
Location: ὁ τοῦ βασιλέως λίθος, London, Europe
Contact:

Re: Strabo 17.1.27 genetive

Post by daivid »

Thanks to all three of you for clearing up my confusion. I shall try and be on the look out for partitive genetives when I encounter μὲν ... δὲ constructions.
As for thinking ἀκρωτηριάζων and περικαίων were genitive :oops:

Thanks again.

(I would be interested if anyone wants to comment on σιδήρῳ but as it is I am quite happy that it should be some kind of iron tools rather than violent force).
λονδον

anphph
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 593
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:35 am

Re: Strabo 17.1.27 genetive

Post by anphph »

daivid wrote:(I would be interested if anyone wants to comment on σιδήρῳ but as it is I am quite happy that it should be some kind of iron tools rather than violent force).
σίδηρος just means iron, yet iron has never been without its violent connotations.
Hesiod, Works and Days, 176-178 wrote:νῦν γὰρ δὴ γένος ἐστὶ σιδήρεον· οὐδέ ποτ' ἦμαρ
παύσονται καμάτου καὶ ὀιζύος οὐδέ τι νύκτωρ
φθειρόμενοι· χαλεπὰς δὲ θεοὶ δώσουσι μερίμνας.
Since it so frequently appears in that metaphorical sense, it might actually be less plausible to think that they were using iron tools (who would waste iron breaking down buildings?) rather than generic violence. When I read it (before coming upon your question) I thought the opposition might be between setting things on fire and personally toppling them down etc.

User avatar
jeidsath
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 5332
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: Strabo 17.1.27 genetive

Post by jeidsath »

I think that ἀκρωτηριάζων is a very concrete verb for the metaphorical usage that you are describing. Stone statues are softer than you'd think, and I don't see anything unlikely about statues and detail work in these temples being mutilated by metal weapons or tools.

Also compare the use of περικοπή in the context of the mutilation of the Herms:

μηνύεται οὖν ἀπὸ μετοίκων τέ τινων καὶ ἀκολούθων περὶ μὲν τῶν Ἑρμῶν οὐδέν, ἄλλων δὲ ἀγαλμάτων περικοπαί τινες πρότερον ὑπὸ νεωτέρων μετὰ παιδιᾶς καὶ οἴνου γεγενημέναι, καὶ τὰ μυστήρια ἅμα ὡς ποιεῖται ἐν οἰκίαις ἐφ’ ὕβρει· ὧν καὶ τὸν Ἀλκιβιάδην ἐπῃτιῶντο.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

daivid
Administrator
Posts: 2744
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:51 pm
Location: ὁ τοῦ βασιλέως λίθος, London, Europe
Contact:

Re: Strabo 17.1.27 genetive

Post by daivid »

anphph wrote:
Since it so frequently appears in that metaphorical sense, it might actually be less plausible to think that they were using iron tools (who would waste iron breaking down buildings?) rather than generic violence. When I read it (before coming upon your question) I thought the opposition might be between setting things on fire and personally toppling them down etc.
It is also used for iron tools when they are being used for breaking rock - Diodotos. Hence I would still bet on the non metaphorical sense. However, the case you put makes it clear why at least one translater thought the way you do.

My thanks to both you and jeidsath for throwing light on the iron issue.
λονδον

Post Reply