Dearum judicium

Here you can discuss all things Ancient Greek. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get help with a difficult passage of Greek, and more.
Post Reply
User avatar
jeidsath
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 5332
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Dearum judicium

Post by jeidsath »

I've been speedreading through Lucian lately, using Faenum's intermediate readers. However, this morning I noticed this:
ΑΦΡΟΔΙΤΗ: Καλῶς, ὦ Πάρι: καὶ πρώτη γε ἀποδύσομαι, ὅπως μάθῃς ὅτι μὴ μόνας ἔχω τὰς ὠλένας λευκὰς μηδὲ τῷ βοῶπις εἶναι μέγα φρονῶ, ἐπ’ ἴσης δέ εἰμι πᾶσα καὶ ὁμοίως καλή.
From the notes:
ὅπως μάθῃς: aor. subj. pass. in purpose clause, “so that you know”
Should be active, not passive.
τῷ βοῶπις: dat. of cause, “because of my ‘ox-eyes’” another epithet of Hera
I feel like this is at least misleading. βοῶπις is nominative. The note should be τῷ βοῶπις εἶναι -- "because of my being ox-eyed." But I notice that the LSJ article on φρονέω gives a number of examples of the usage φρονεῖν ἐπί τινι, "proud of something." If the missing επι were there, or implied, it would make the logic of Aphrodite's dig against Hera much sharper:

"...in order that you shall learn that it's not only white arms I have, nor that because of being ox-eyed I am haughty, but I am of a piece, entirely and equally beautiful."

vs.

"...in order that you shall learn that it's not only white arms I have, nor that am I haughty over being ox-eyed, but I am of a piece, entirely and equally beautiful."
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

anphph
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 593
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:35 am

Re: Dearum judicium

Post by anphph »

jeidsath wrote:"...in order that you shall learn that it's not only white arms I have, nor that because of being ox-eyed I am haughty, but I am of a piece, entirely and equally beautiful."

vs.

"...in order that you shall learn that it's not only white arms I have, nor that am I haughty over being ox-eyed, but I am of a piece, entirely and equally beautiful."
English is failing me here, can you explain me how is it that "haughty over being ox-eyed" is different over "haughty for/because of being ox-eyed"?

User avatar
jeidsath
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 5332
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: Dearum judicium

Post by jeidsath »

Here's what I think the explicit difference would be in Greek, where it might be easier to see:

διὰ τὸ βοῶπις εἶναι μέγα φρονῶ (equivalent to a "causal dative")

vs.

ἐπὶ τῷ βοῶπις εἶναι μέγα φρονῶ

The difference is whether the φρονῶ is general or specific. In the first, Aphrodite claims that being ox-eyed hasn't made her haughty, but rather her general beauty has made her so. In the second, Aphrodite claims that she is unlike Hera, who takes inordinate pride in her only good quality.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

mwh
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 4791
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: Dearum judicium

Post by mwh »

επι would indeed be normal with μεγα φρονειν, but I think the text is right as it stands, and better than it would be with επι. She’s not saying she doesn’t μεγα φρονει over being cow-eyed (though she could), she’s saying that being cow-eyed hasn’t made her μεγα φρονειν (unlike Hera, by implication). She’s certainly not claiming that her general beauty has made her μεγα φρονειν. Thinking big is always a bad thing, never a thing anyone admits to. No-one who μεγα φρονει comes to a good end.

Plutarch has τοις παρουσιν αγαθοις μεγα φρονειν in his retelling of Herodotus’ Croeus&Solon story in his Life of Solon, and (τον δημον) μεγα φρονουντα ταις νικαις of Aristides’ democratization of Athens in his Life of Aristides. These may make clearer how the plain dative differs from επι.

An unrelated point. μη μονας εχω τας ωλενας λευκας = “it’s not just my arms that are white.” λευκας predicative, and note the article with ωλενας. Cf. e.g. “he has small hands” (= “his hands are small”) εχει τας χειρας μικρας.

The allusion is of course to Hera’s Homeric epithets, θεα λευκωλενος Ηρη| and βοωπις ποτνια Ηρη|—a very interesting exception to the compositional principle of formulaic economy, since they’re metrically identical.

User avatar
jeidsath
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 5332
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: Dearum judicium

Post by jeidsath »

An unrelated point. μη μονας εχω τας ωλενας λευκας = “it’s not just my arms that are white.” λευκας predicative, and note the article with ωλενας. Cf. e.g. “he has small hands” (= “his hands are small”) εχει τας χειρας μικρας
Yes, what Aphrodite was saying on that point was very clear in my mind. I didn't realize that my English was not clear until you brought it up. Maybe all those things Latin teachers say about learning precision in your native tongue are true.
Plutarch has τοις παρουσιν αγαθοις μεγα φρονειν in his retelling of Herodotus’ Croeus&Solon story in his Life of Solon, and (τον δημον) μεγα φρονουντα ταις νικαις of Aristides’ democratization of Athens in his Life of Aristides. These may make clearer how the plain dative differs from επι.
Yes, both of these examples would make less sense with an added επι. The rustic wisdom of the Greeks prevents them from being moved to pride by circumstances. Victories have made the Athenian democrats too proud to be pushed out of power now.

Maybe my difficulty with the Lucian quote is a really a problem of emphasis. The contrast must be between τωι βοωπις ειναι and επ ισης ειμι. In English, the finite verb seems to steal the emphasis: "I'm not proud because of my beautiful eyes, instead I'm equally beautiful all over" comes out as a Mel Brooks line.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

mwh
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 4791
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: Dearum judicium

Post by mwh »

You’re forgetting that δε is not αλλα. It doesn’t mean “instead.” And the closer is targeting both halves of the preceding μη … μηδε …, not just the βοωπις bit. Hera may have white arms and cow eyes but Aphrodite has so much more! As Paris will learn (μαθῃς) when she strips (ειμι continues the οτι clause).

Read it right and you really shouldn't have any difficulty with it.

Hylander
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 2504
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:16 pm

Re: Dearum judicium

Post by Hylander »

Aph. is saying that she is not stuck up, unlike Hera, who, she is asserting by negative implication, is stuck up because she is cow-eyed. Aph. is not cow-eyed--only Hera is cow-eyed because that's a Homeric epithet that is uniquely hers--and claims she's not stuck up. So there are two levels of contrast in this. Then Aph. goes on to insist that she is beautiful all over, unselfconsciously exhibiting that in fact she does μεγα φρονει.

For Greeks of Lucian's era, the Homeric traditional epithet "cow-eyed" probably had a slightly ridiculous ring to it, as it does for us, which would add to the humor. Who knows whether "cow-eyed" really was the original meaning of the epithet? Just like επι οινοπα ποντον. There is probably a different explanation for these words that is irrecoverable.
Bill Walderman

User avatar
Paul Derouda
Global Moderator
Posts: 2292
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: Dearum judicium

Post by Paul Derouda »

επι οινοπα ποντον. According to a friend of mine, you feel as if you were drunk when you're sailing on an agitated sea – hence the epithet! I don't really believe it and neither does he, but I like it.

mwh
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 4791
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: Dearum judicium

Post by mwh »

Whether or not βοωπις originally meant cow-eyed (or ox-eyed), for Lucian, as for all Homer’s readers, it did mean that, though that was usually interpreted as tantamount to large-eyed. By Lucian’s time and even in classical times the epithet would undoubtedly have sounded fairly ridiculous, for women were not complimented in such terms. Cows do in fact have beautiful large eyes, but “Thy face reminds me of a cow” could be a Housmanic parody (Why should I mention Io?), and Aphrodite is mocking.

As for Aphrodite herself, she is πασα καλη, after all, and is bound to win any beauty contest. Advertizing the fact (and bitchily putting down her rivals in the process) is just what as a contestant she should do. You win by showing (in this case literally showing!) that you outmatch the competition. Lucian has to make out that Hera and Athena have a chance of winning (that’s the Homeric premise of the Judgment) and that the outcome is not predetermined (as everyone knows it is). That’s the fun of it, simultaneously exposing and mitigating the sheer impossibility of the given scenario—quite apart from the voyeuristic titillation of imagining goddesses stripping. And in the process he has fun deploying all the various Homeric data on these iconic characters, relying on his readers’ recognition of them imported into this particular setting.

Post Reply