Question regarding the Second Aorist.

[malolosgreencat]

Uhm...I encountered the Second Aorist while learning through the website based on "First Greek Book" by John William White:

http://daedalus.umkc.edu/FirstGreekBook/JWW_FGB10.html

Now my question is in regard to the explanation for the Second Aorist.

The Second Aorist

91. Some verbs lack the first aorist. Such verbs often have a SECOND aorist, which ends in ον, and is conjugated exactly like the imperfect (69), as:
ἄγω, ἔξω, second aorist ἤγαγον, I led, ἤγαγες, you led, ἤγαγε, he led, etc.,
ἕχω, ἕξω, second aorist ἔσχον, Ι had, ἔσχες, you had,ἔσχε, he had, etc.
a The breathing of the future ἕξω is irregular.
The second aorist can be distinguished from the imperfect by the form of the stem. The imperfect is formed from the present stem (i.e. ἄγω), the aorist is formed from the aorist stem (i.e. ἤγαγον). From this point forward, the present, future and aorist forms of verbs will be given in the vocabulary and must be learned as part of the word.

1. How do I know that so and so verb doesn't have a First Aorist and such I must use a Second Aorist?

2. I didn't understand the examples given up above. Is "ago" the first aorist and "ego" the second aorist, as with "Echo" the first and "Exo" the second aorist? Or "ago" and "ego" and "Echo" and "Exo" just the same and the words with the "ON" like "egagon" and "eschon" the Second Aorist words?

[daivid]

Uhm...I encountered the Second Aorist while learning through the website based on "First Greek Book" by John William White:

http://daedalus.umkc.edu/FirstGreekBook/JWW_FGB10.html

Now my question is in regard to the explanation for the Second Aorist.

The Second Aorist

91. Some verbs lack the first aorist. Such verbs often have a SECOND aorist, which ends in ον, and is conjugated exactly like the imperfect (69), as:
ἄγω, ἔξω, second aorist ἤγαγον, I led, ἤγαγες, you led, ἤγαγε, he led, etc.,
ἕχω, ἕξω, second aorist ἔσχον, Ι had, ἔσχες, you had,ἔσχε, he had, etc.
a The breathing of the future ἕξω is irregular.
The second aorist can be distinguished from the imperfect by the form of the stem. The imperfect is formed from the present stem (i.e. ἄγω), the aorist is formed from the aorist stem (i.e. ἤγαγον). From this point forward, the present, future and aorist forms of verbs will be given in the vocabulary and must be learned as part of the word.

1. How do I know that so and so verb doesn't have a First Aorist and such I must use a Second Aorist?

The short answer is you don't - you have to learn this for each verb. To be certain you need to learn all six principle parts (present , future , aorist , perfect , perfect middle and aorist passive . However the chaos isn't quite that bad there are patterns. Further most verbs are First aorists. Hence it learning a handful of the most common 2nd Aorists should be manageable.

2. I didn't understand the examples given up above. Is "ago" the first aorist and "ego" the second aorist, as with "Echo" the first and "Exo" the second aorist? Or "ago" and "ego" and "Echo" and "Exo" just the same and the words with the "ON" like "egagon" and "eschon" the Second Aorist words?

ἔξω is the future form for ἕχω. ἄξω is the future of ἄγω. (typo perhaps?)

I know all this complexity is daunting so just take on board as much as you can handle and then take on more as you feel able.

[Hylander]

ἔξω is the future form for ἕχω.

I think you have your breathings reversed. ἕξω is the future form of ἔχω.

ἄγω, ἔξω, second aorist ἤγαγον, I led, ἤγαγες, you led, ἤγαγε, he led, etc.,

The future is ἄξω.

The difference between the first ("sigmatic") aorist and the second aorist is similar to the difference between the two forms of past tense in English: some English verbs form their past tense with a dental consonant ("weak" verbs), e.g., "passed", "slept", while others ("strong" verbs) form their past tense with an internal vowel change, e.g. "swam", "took". So, yes, unfortunately, when you learn a Greek verb, you just have to learn the aorist (as well as the present and several other forms), just as you would have to learn the present, past and past participle of each English verb if you were learning English.

The situation in English is easier: the verbs with internal vowel change (as well as irregular weak verbs such as "buy/bought") are mainly common monosyllabic verbs, and most English verbs form their past tense and past participle simply by adding -ed. With Greek, the situation calls for more effort at memorization.

In general, as the text notes, the second aorist stem of a verb that has a second aorist will be different from the present stem. Generally, the present and second aorist stems will have different internal vowels. (This is like the internal vowel changes of English "strong" verbs, and in fact in both English and Greek the internal change can be traced back to the very same phenomenon in the Proto-Indo-European language that was ancestral to both Greek and English.) As a result, the second aorist will be distinguishable from the imperfect, which is formed from the present stem. For example, present λειπω ("leave"), imperfect ελειπον but second aorist ελιπον.

ἤγαγον and ἔσχον are somewhat unusual second aorists. The λειπω/ελιπον pattern is more typical.

[malolosgreencat]

Thanks for the answer to my question folks.

It helped me understand this lesson. Thanks.

[Timothée]

Greek-learner has definitely not to be inclined towards historical linguistics, but a little knowledge of it does help to understand otherwise possibly dumbfounding changes. (That said, in the end the forms are learnt as they are, taken in by absorbing the language, seeing them within the language.)

As Hylander suggested, (second) aorist often has a zero-grade.
λείπειν : λέλοιπα : ἔλιπον
εἰδέναι : οἶδα : ἔιδον
have o-grade in perfect and zero-grade in aorist.

Similarly for ἔχειν the root is σεχ- (cognate with German Sieg ‘victory’). Word-initial σ- becomes spiritus asper ἑχ- (seen in the future ἕξω), and Grassmann’s law (= generally no aspirates in consecutive syllables) takes away the aspirate in present ἔχω. Zero-grade of σεχ- is σχ-, which with added augment and personal ending becomes ἔσχον.

A few more examples. A few Greek verbs have both nasal infix and an -αν- extension in the present stem, which is why we have the pairs
λαμϐάνειν : ἔλαϐον
λαγχάνειν : ἔλαχον
λανθάνειν : ἔλαθον
μανθάνειν : ἔμαθον
τυγχάνειν : ἔτυχον etc.

From first aorist take for example διδάσκειν : ἐδίδαξα. This is because the present stem comes from διδαχ-σκ-, but no -σκ- in aorist with the sigma: διδαχ-σ- = διδαξ-.

Some aorists come originally from different verbs than the corresponding present stem (cf. English go : went). This can be due to the sense of the word (not applicable to aoristic punctuality), or two (or more) verbs having almost the same meaning and then becoming mixed up. ἤνεγκον, ἔφαγον, εἷλον and ἤλυθον, amongst others, are suppletively connected to originally different verbs.

πάσχειν : ἔπαθον : πέπονθα is quite interesting. First, the present comes from παθ-σκ- (aspiration moved onto κ > χ). More deeply the α of the present and aorist is originally a syllabic n (again zero-grade in the aorist and o-grade in the perfect). The word πένθος is of the same origin (with e-grade).

The Greek verb system has many intricacies. You don’t have to consider these historical linguistics matters in order to learn Greek, but for some it may be good to know that it has much logic within, explicable by history, even though potentially odd synchronically.

[jeidsath]

Lately I've been thinking that I wouldn't mind seeing a list of all greek second aorists organized in some manner similar to Timothée's post. Having to guess whether a word is a strong aorist or an imperfect often annoys me.

[Timothée]

Joel, wouldn’t grammars cover that point? Every good grammar has verbs and themes of verbs in grouped order. Or are you perhaps thinking in some way outside the box?

[mwh]

Having to guess whether a word is a strong aorist or an imperfect often annoys me.

Greek annoys many. But you shouldn't have to guess if you know the present—or the aorist. And then there's context.

[jeidsath]

Yes, the idea is to make myself a better contextual learner.

Smyth scatters his information about aorist versus present stems through a lot of sections. (Verb stem changes: 474-495, the present system: 497-531, first aorist system: 542-545, second aorist system: 546-554. I've left out minor points on euphony and consonant verbs).

One thing that I did not know in detail until recently was 476 on vowel gradation (ι -> ει; υ -> ευ; and α -> η or ε + λ, μ, ν, ρ or λ, μ, ν, ρ + ε). 549 has cross-references to some of the other ways in which 2nd aorists are forms (reduplication, syncope, α for ε, metathesis.

What would make mastering all of the above easier for me would be either more exhaustive examples, or to have it back referenced from his list of verbs.

[mwh]

With some forms you do have to guess whether it’s first aorist or imperfect. You’ll remember Archilochus’ σάθη ὥστ’ ὄνου Πριηνέως κήλωνος ἐπλήμυρεν ὀτρυγηφάγου. Cf. e.g. ἔκρινεν, ἔκειρεν (liquids).

[Hylander]

Please. There may be young and impressionable minds reading this.

[malolosgreencat]

Ok. So does this definition...explanation make sense? I'm trying to make it sound simpler to myself.

Second Aorist - used for verbs that lack First Aorist. Second Aorist verbs end in "on" but are conjugated just like imperfect active indicative verbs, but are at the same time different from imperfect active indicative verbs by having different vowels inside the word.

[Timothée]

I think you should rather, as Hylander said, compare the Greek second aorist to English strong verbs (e.g. strive : strove : striven). The Greek first aorist will compare to English weak verbs (e.g.
help : helped : helped). Some verbs have one, some the other. The reason is historical linguistic, as Proto-Indo-European¹ had many different kinds of aorists. And Greek has also even more aorists: just think of for example root-aorists. These aorists can be grouped slightly differently according to one’s preferences and interpretation (e.g. athematic vs. thematic aorists).

¹The common ancestral language of Greek, English, Persian, Sanscrit, Russian, Irish, Latin, Albanian, Armenian, Hittite, Tocharian etc. etc.

[Hylander]

Let me try to summarize.

There are several different types of aorists in Greek, all of which require augment in Attic Greek. (Bear in mind that we're talking about active and middle aorists; passive aorists follow a different pattern.) The two most common types of aorists are:

(1) the "first" or "sigmatic" aorist, which is formed by adding a suffix, σ, plus personal endings -α -ας -ε -αμεν -ατε -αν, and

(2) the "second aorist," which is generally formed by adding to a second aorist verb stem which is distinct from the present stem the same personal endings that are added to the present stem to form the imperfect. The internal vowel of the second aorist verb stem is usually different from the vowel of the present stem (and in some verbs, there is no vowel at all in the second aorist verb stem), a feature that distinguishes the second aorist from the imperfect. The second aorist is less widespread than the first/sigmatic aorist, but is typically associated with basic verbs with monosyllabic roots.

I don't think it's quite correct to think of the second aorist as "used for verbs that lack first aorist." It's simply the case that some verbs have a first aorist and others have a second aorist, but not both, as Timothée notes. You need to learn each particular verb's aorist form when you learn the verb.

(Actually, a handful of verbs do have more than one type of aorist, but there's usually a difference of meaning, of register, i.e., prosaic or poetic, or of dialect. You don't need to worry about that for a long time.)

Welcome to the crazy world of Greek verbs! You need to memorize all the basic forms of each verb, and nearly every verb has some sort of irregularity or other. As you progress, some patterns will emerge, and later you can amplify your knowledge with an understanding of the historical processes that underlie many of the seemingly wild proliferation of irregularities. But in the end--not to sugar-coat it--you need to be prepared to meet the difficult challenge of mastering Greek verbs if you want to read Greek.

[mwh]

Ok. So does this definition...explanation make sense? I'm trying to make it sound simpler to myself.

Second Aorist - used for verbs that lack First Aorist. Second Aorist verbs end in "on" but are conjugated just like imperfect active indicative verbs, but are at the same time different from imperfect active indicative verbs by having different vowels inside the word.

I think that’s a pretty good descriptive statement for working purposes, except that your first “but” should be “and.”

That’s not to say you should ignore the follow-up posts. To Hylander’s I’d add these clarifications (which you can ignore if you like):
1. Remember it’s only the aorist indicative—whether active, middle or passive—that has an augment. (Imperfect indicative too, of course. It’s only in the indicative that present and imperfect are distinct.) Aorist infinitives, participles, subjunctive and optative have no augment.
2. All sigmatic(=weak=”first”) aorists have personal endings -α -ας -ε -αμεν -ατε -αν, just as Hylander says, but be warned that not all of them retain sigma in front of them. E.g. ἐδίδαξα “I taught” has the “s” sound but not an actual sigma (you could spell it εδιδακσα or εδιδαχσα), while others show no residual trace of the sigma at all, e.g. ἔκρινα “I judged.”
3. “Strong” aorists (misleadingly called 2nd aorists in Greek) are old, and have to be strong in order to survive: they’re liable to be replaced by “weak” aorists. In English “strove” might get regularized to “strived,” and in Greek 2nd(=strong) aorists are gradually displaced by 1st(=weak=sigmatic) aorists. A strong aorist such as εἶπον “I said” can even pick up the weak aorist endings and become εἶπα. Greek did not stand still, any more than any other language.

Good luck!

[malolosgreencat]

I think I'm gonna cry.

...ok., Crying finished. Now back to learning enough to make authentic Attic sentences for my story.

[daivid]

I think I'm gonna cry.

...ok., Crying finished. Now back to learning enough to make authentic Attic sentences for my story.

Just remember that though the Ancient Greek verb system is complex it is not random. I second mwh in saying that the definition you gave is quite workable for a first approximation. Just keep in mind that you will have gradually revise it to take into account the full complexity as you progress.