3rd person imperative for ancient greek computer game

Here you can discuss all things Ancient Greek. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get help with a difficult passage of Greek, and more.
Post Reply
daivid
Administrator
Posts: 2744
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:51 pm
Location: ὁ τοῦ βασιλέως λίθος, London, Europe
Contact:

3rd person imperative for ancient greek computer game

Post by daivid »

I have done a very simple computer game that I intend to put online so as to give people a chance to practice a little Greek especially numbers. The basic scenario is that you are a ruler of a group of peasants. You can assign them to work the fields, weave or build a flood protection wall. The peasants can die from starvation, drowning or from the cold. If you let too many die they rebel. Game over.

I have done the basic back end so now I am doing the input interface. I am keen to make sure that I get at least this bit right. I am going to have to convert any input into something the computer understands so if I have to correct it later it will involve rewriting the code.

The player types in a commands to assign a groups of peasants to something different I thought of using 3rd person imperatives :

ὑφαινόντων γυναικὼν γεωργουσῶν μία τεσσαράκοντα ἑκατόν


That is intended to mean:
Let be weaving of the women farming 141.
that is
take out of the number of women who are currently working in the fields the number of 141 and assign them to weaving clothes.

There will be drop down options so it can be more complicated than that, However if it is too complicated the player may stop reading the whole sentence and just pay attention to the bits that change.

I have already posted to the composition board so apologies to those who have already seen this.
λονδον

Hylander
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 2504
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:16 pm

Re: 3rd person imperative for ancient greek computer game

Post by Hylander »

γυναικων is perispomenon.

You need an article with γυναικων because you're talking about a specific group of women, and it should be fronted.

γεοργεω means to "be a farmer" or to "cultivate". For "working in the field" you would need something like εργαζομενων εν τοις αγροις.

The numeral would probably be the other way around: μια και τεσσαρακοντα και εκατον. See example from Thucydides here:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 28kato%2Fn

Maybe: των γυναικων των εν τοις αγροις εργαζομενων υφαινοντων/υφαινετωσαν μια και τεσσαρακοντα και εκατον.

But even that would sound as strange as "Let 141 of the women working in the fields weave."
Bill Walderman

daivid
Administrator
Posts: 2744
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:51 pm
Location: ὁ τοῦ βασιλέως λίθος, London, Europe
Contact:

Re: 3rd person imperative for ancient greek computer game

Post by daivid »

Hylander wrote: Maybe: των γυναικων των εν τοις αγροις εργαζομενων υφαινοντων/υφαινετωσαν μια και τεσσαρακοντα και εκατον.

But even that would sound as strange as "Let 141 of the women working in the fields weave."
First, thanks very much for the reply.

If I understand you correctly, 3rd person imperatives won't really work for this contexts.

How about:
κελεύω ταῖς γυναιξί ταῖς ἐν τοῖς ἀγροῖς ἐργαζομέναις ὑφαίνειν μία καὶ τεσσαράκοντα καὶ ἑκατόν.
λονδον

Hylander
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 2504
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:16 pm

Re: 3rd person imperative for ancient greek computer game

Post by Hylander »

No, that's worse and ungrammatical too. My complaint about the first version is only that it's not something anyone would ever utter, just like the English translation. You would want to say something like, Transfer x women currently working in the fields to weaving.

Also, practice with numbers isn't something that would be particularly useful in reading ancient Greek texts. In my experience, at least, there aren't a lot of numbers in the texts and usually they're rounded -- the number of troops seems to me to be the most frequent use of large numbers I've encountered, and those are usually rounded. I haven't read any technical texts on mathematics or astronomy, however, although I think those typically use alphabetical symbols rather than spelling out numbers in words.

The third-person imperative is also rarely encountered, and when it does crop up I don't think it presents much difficulty.
Last edited by Hylander on Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bill Walderman

daivid
Administrator
Posts: 2744
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:51 pm
Location: ὁ τοῦ βασιλέως λίθος, London, Europe
Contact:

Re: 3rd person imperative for ancient greek computer game

Post by daivid »

Hylander wrote:No, that's worse and ungrammatical too. My complaint about the first version is that it's not something anyone would ever utter, just like the English translation.
Then I'm at a loss, How would a despot tell his minions that a group of peasants needed to be transferred from one task to another. Even if actual states were not run on such lines there must have been latafundia where the landowner would want to say something like that to his agent.

EDIT
Or a situation where a general might say to his deputy "I want 30 of the slingers who are currently defending the acropolis to be assigned to defending the south wall."
λονδον

mwh
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 4791
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: 3rd person imperative for ancient greek computer game

Post by mwh »

Transfer x women currently working in the fields to weaving.
μεταστῆθι x τῶν εν τοις αγροις νυν εργαζομενων γυναικων επι το υφαινειν.

Use numerals and you won’t have to worry about case. 100 = ρ΄, 131 = ρλα΄, 242 = σμβ΄, etc.

"I want 30 of the slingers who are currently defending the acropolis to be assigned to defending the south wall."
κελευω λ΄ των την ακροπολιν νυν φυλασσοντων σφενδονητων προσταχθηναι το προς νοτον τειχος φυλασσειν
or simply προστασσω λ΄ των την ακροπολιν νυν φυλασσοντων σφενδονητων το προς νοτον τειχος φυλασσειν.

daivid
Administrator
Posts: 2744
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:51 pm
Location: ὁ τοῦ βασιλέως λίθος, London, Europe
Contact:

Re: 3rd person imperative for ancient greek computer game

Post by daivid »

mwh wrote:Transfer x women currently working in the fields to weaving.
μεταστῆθι x τῶν εν τοις αγροις νυν εργαζομενων γυναικων επι το υφαινειν.
Perfect. Now I see the final version I realize I should have been able to at least get close to that with Hylander's help. Thanks to both of you and my apologies to Hylander for not reading his post more carefully.
Hylander wrote: Also, practice with numbers isn't something that would be particularly useful in reading ancient Greek texts. In my experience, at least, there aren't a lot of numbers in the texts and usually they're rounded -- the number of troops seems to me to be the most frequent use of large numbers I've encountered, and those are usually rounded. I haven't read any technical texts on mathematics or astronomy, however, although I think those typically use alphabetical symbols rather than spelling out numbers in words.
Yes, but full numbers are made up of rounded numbers. But not a priority I grant you. You and mwh may be right that letters may in the end be more useful but as I have already written the output for full numbers I'll stick with them for now.
Hylander wrote:The third-person imperative is also rarely encountered, and when it does crop up I don't think it presents much difficulty.
Because they are so rare they always trip me up when I encounter them but I was clearly making the mistake of using them in a context where they don't fit.

So I wish you both my full thanks for what is the key bit of help that I needed.
λονδον

mwh
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 4791
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: 3rd person imperative for ancient greek computer game

Post by mwh »

3rd-person imperatives would actually be fine in this context. Cleopatra VII gave a huge tax break to P. Canidius (Crassus) on his land holdings in Egypt (as you’ll know, he was Mark Antony’s right-hand man, commanded his land forces at Actium), and the official document is signed with the single word γινεσθω (spelled γινεσθωι). It's thought to be in Cleo’s own hand.

But I’m not suggesting you use them. :D

Incidentally, that text like tens of thousands of others uses the universal “alphabetic” notational system for numbers. It works just like our 1-2-3… only without special numeric characters (and without 0 of course). α = 1, … θ = 9, ι = 10, ια = 11, … κ = 20, … ρ = 100, ρια = 111, etc.—your players could use an abacus if fingers weren’t enough. I’d strongly advise you to use this system for your game. Only in literary texts were numbers written out in full.

daivid
Administrator
Posts: 2744
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:51 pm
Location: ὁ τοῦ βασιλέως λίθος, London, Europe
Contact:

Re: 3rd person imperative for ancient greek computer game

Post by daivid »

mwh wrote:3rd-person imperatives would actually be fine in this context. Cleopatra VII gave a huge tax break to P. Canidius (Crassus) on his land holdings in Egypt (as you’ll know, he was Mark Antony’s right-hand man, commanded his land forces at Actium), and the official document is signed with the single word γινεσθω (spelled γινεσθωι). It's thought to be in Cleo’s own hand.

But I’m not suggesting you use them. :D
Well I'm committed to 2nd person imperatives now. But maybe for a future game.
mwh wrote:Incidentally, that text like tens of thousands of others uses the universal “alphabetic” notational system for numbers. It works just like our 1-2-3… only without special numeric characters (and without 0 of course). α = 1, … θ = 9, ι = 10, ια = 11, … κ = 20, … ρ = 100, ρια = 111, etc.—your players could use an abacus if fingers weren’t enough. I’d strongly advise you to use this system for your game. Only in literary texts were numbers written out in full.
That sounds like good advice. So far I have really only read literary texts so I have a rather distorted impression as to which of the two was most often used. However, I have pretty much done the number conversion so again maybe for the next game.
λονδον

Post Reply