"οὐ δήπου" in questions = μή ?

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Tugodum
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"οὐ δήπου" in questions = μή ?

Post by Tugodum »

Smyth 2850:
"In questions δήπου expects the answer yes. οὐ δήπου certainly not and is it not so? (with irony)."
Yet by itself, as far as I understand, οὐ expects the answer yes, and μή expects the answer no.
Am I, then, getting it right that, when used together in questions οὐ and δήπου have the force of μή (as if annihilating the "yes" expectation each of them would be producing by itself), like in Plato, Symp. 194 b6-8:
Τί δέ, ὦ Σώκρατες; τὸν Ἀγάθωνα φάναι, οὐ δήπου με οὕτω θεάτρου μεστὸν ἡγῇ ὥστε καὶ ἀγνοεῖν ὅτι νοῦν ἔχοντι ὀλίγοι ἔμφρονες πολλῶν ἀφρόνων φοβερώτεροι;
?

mwh
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Re: "οὐ δήπου" in questions = μή ?

Post by mwh »

No, you need to rethink this.

It’s misleading of grammars to say that (ἆρ’) οὐ and (ἆρα) μὴ expect the answers Yes and No respectively. (That’s discourse analysis and communication theory at their crudest.) Better to say, however inadequately, that the questions are framed as if expecting those answers.

“Did you speak to her?” = ἆρα …;

“Didn’t you speak to her?” (Surely you did) = ἆρ’ οὐ …;

ἆρα μὴ …; = “You didn’t speak to her did you?” (as if incredulous or horrified at the idea) ~
“You don’t mean to tell me you spoke to her?” (Please tell me you didn’t) ~
“I trust you didn’t speak to her?” (but I’m fearful that you did).

Either form of question could be answered Yes I did or No I didn’t.
(ἆρα is used to signal that it's a question. It's not needed if interrogative intonation is clearly implied. Cf. English "Did you speak to her?" vs. "You spoke to her?")

δήπου merely combines δή and που. It has no specialized meaning.
οὐ δήπου …; = “I presume you didn’t speak to her?” Anticipated response (confirming the assumption): No of course not.
οὐ δήπου με οὕτω θεάτρου μεστὸν ἡγῇ …; “You surely don’t imagine that I …?” (No of course you don’t)
as distinct from ἆρα μή με οὕτω θεάτρου μεστὸν ἡγῇ …; “You don’t mean to tell me you imagine that I …?” (How could you?)
Any irony is only implicit, contextually inherent.

Tugodum
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Re: "οὐ δήπου" in questions = μή ?

Post by Tugodum »

mwh wrote:It’s misleading of grammars to say that (ἆρ’) οὐ and (ἆρα) μὴ expect the answers Yes and No respectively.
Wow... Am trying to rethink... What if we replace "expect" with "express a hope for..."? Would this be correct? Your examples:
mwh wrote:“Didn’t you speak to her?” (Surely you did) = ἆρ’ οὐ …;
mwh wrote:ἆρα μὴ …; = “You didn’t speak to her did you?” (as if incredulous or horrified at the idea) ~
“You don’t mean to tell me you spoke to her?” (Please tell me you didn’t) ~
“I trust you didn’t speak to her?” (but I’m fearful that you did).
seem to suggest precisely this. But it might well be that my English is failing me. In which case I would be grateful should you be willing to indicate what I have missed in the semantics of these examples.
The most difficult part for me is that I fail to see any difference in meaning between the following two:
1. οὐ δήπου
mwh wrote:“You surely don’t imagine that I …?” (No of course you don’t)
2. μή
mwh wrote:“You don’t mean to tell me you imagine that I …?” (How could you?)
Both express a hope for a negative answer, don't they? Hence my hypothetical equation in the subject line of this posting. What am I missing?

mwh
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Re: "οὐ δήπου" in questions = μή ?

Post by mwh »

I’m sorry you fail to see any difference. If you merely fasten on the negative in my translations and glosses, you won’t. Both ου and μη are negatives, after all. Perhaps you’ll have more success if you consider for yourself other examples in their contexts.
That’s all from me for now.

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