Acts 4, 1-3 partitive gen? + indirect statement? etc

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daivid
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Acts 4, 1-3 partitive gen? + indirect statement? etc

Post by daivid »

This is from Acts 4,1-3
It took me a couple of days to get to feel I understood what was going on but then when I checked the two translations I had to hand the very small confidence I had collapsed.

This is my attempt:

Λαλούν των δὲ αὐτῶν πρὸς τὸν λαὸν ἐπέστησαν αὐτοῖς οἱ ἀρχιερεῖς καὶ ὁ στρατηγὸς τοῦ ἱεροῦ καὶ οἱ Σαδδουκαῖοι,
The leading priests, both the captain of the temple and the Sadducees came up against the ones of them speaking before the populace
διαπονούμενοι διὰ τὸ διδάσκειν αὐτοὺς τὸν λαὸν καὶ καταγγέλλειν ἐν τῷ Ἰησοῦ τὴν ἀνάστασιν τὴν ἐκ νεκρῶν,
they (ie the priests) were disturbed because they were teaching the people and proclaiming in the name of Jesus the resurrection of the dead
καὶ ἐπέβαλον αὐτοῖς τὰς χεῖρας καὶ ἔθεντο εἰς τήρησιν εἰς τὴν αὔριον, ἦν γὰρ ἑσπέρα ἤδη.
and they laid hands on them and and placed them in a place of confinement until the morrow for it was already evening.

Which I have little confidence in because several bits I was guessing and in other places the translations I've looked differ rather too markedly from what the Greek says to me to be just the result of a free translation.

Λαλούν των δὲ αὐτῶν – I would have expected a definite article in front of Λαλούν while the translations I've seen seem to me to ignore των δὲ αὐτῶν

οἱ ἀρχιερεῖς καὶ ὁ στρατηγὸς τοῦ ἱεροῦ καὶ οἱ Σαδδουκαῖοι,
as the translations take the Sadducees and the temple captain to be separate from chief priests I assume they have good reason but would the Greek itself dictate that?

διὰ τὸ διδάσκειν αὐτοὺς I can make sense of this only by treating it as an indirect statement but is that valid?

ἐν τῷ Ἰησοῦ looking at definitions of ἐν “in the name of Jesus” or “by means of Jesus” seem possible NEB translation has proclaiming the resurrection of Jesus which I just can't see. The version of American Standard on Perseus translates it literally as “in Jesus” but that's an idiom of English that I don't get.

I might add here that the way Λαλούν despite being the object goes to the front is a good example of the way the theme goes to the front in Ancient Greek in way that for English native speakers is quite bizarre (and to me in particular - it was a big reason that I found the sentence initially impossible).
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Qimmik
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Re: Acts 4, 1-3 partitive gen? + indirect statement? etc

Post by Qimmik »

It's no wonder you had trouble with this. Λαλούν των is a mistake for Λαλούντων. Λαλούντων δὲ αὐτῶν πρὸς τὸν λαὸν, a genitive absolute -- "When they were speaking to the people . . . " The on-line version on the Perseus site isn't always wholly reliable.

διὰ τὸ διδάσκειν αὐτοὺς τὸν λαὸν καὶ καταγγέλλειν . . . -- an articular infinitive construction: "because they were teaching the people and announcing/proclaiming . . . "
οἱ ἀρχιερεῖς καὶ ὁ στρατηγὸς τοῦ ἱεροῦ καὶ οἱ Σαδδουκαῖοι,
as the translations take the Sadducees and the temple captain to be separate from chief priests I assume they have good reason but would the Greek itself dictate that?
Yes, these are separate groups and individuals, conjoined by καὶ.

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Re: Acts 4, 1-3 partitive gen? + indirect statement? etc

Post by Markos »

daivid wrote: ἐν τῷ Ἰησοῦ looking at definitions of ἐν “in the name of Jesus” or “by means of Jesus” seem possible NEB translation has proclaiming the resurrection of Jesus which I just can't see. The version of American Standard on Perseus translates it literally as “in Jesus” but that's an idiom of English that I don't get.)
The Sadducees denied the resurrection of the dead in general. The Apostles were arguing in favor of this doctrine "by means of the example of Jesus," "through the fact that Jesus had already risen."
οἱ ἀρχιερεῖς καὶ ὁ στρατηγὸς τοῦ ἱεροῦ καὶ οἱ Σαδδουκαῖοι,
as the translations take the Sadducees and the temple captain to be separate from chief priests I assume they have good reason but would the Greek itself dictate that?
The chief priests would presumably have been Sadducees, as would presumably the temple police, but I would think that the there was a larger Sadducean movement that would have included people who were not necessarily temple officials, but general supporters of the same. No reason therefore to take the final καί "epexegetically."

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Re: Acts 4, 1-3 partitive gen? + indirect statement? etc

Post by daivid »

Thanks to the two of you it is now much clearer. Much appreciated.

One last detail remains
Qimmik wrote: διὰ τὸ διδάσκειν αὐτοὺς τὸν λαὸν καὶ καταγγέλλειν . . . -- an articular infinitive construction: "because they were teaching the people and announcing/proclaiming . . . "
I presume that αὐτοὺς is in effect the subject that would go with διδάσκειν were it an indicative tense.

Can I take it that, in any case where you take a normal subject + indicative verb, if you make the verb into an articular infinitive and use it as an accusative then the subject will become an accusative.
That is to say along the lines of an infinitive indirect statement.

(I did try looking the articular infinitive section in Smythe but unfortunately my Greek still isn't good enough to follow his examples :( )
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Re: Acts 4, 1-3 partitive gen? + indirect statement? etc

Post by Qimmik »

I presume that αὐτοὺς is in effect the subject that would go with διδάσκειν were it an indicative tense.

Can I take it that, in any case where you take a normal subject + indicative verb, if you make the verb into an articular infinitive and use it as an accusative then the subject will become an accusative.
That is to say along the lines of an infinitive indirect statement.
Yes, the subject of an articular infinitive is accusative. (However, this holds true whatever case the articular infinitive happens to be, not just when it is accusative.) This is simply a special case of the general rule stated in Smyth 1972:
In general the subject of the infinitive, if expressed at all, stands in the accusative; when the subject of the infinitive is the same as the subject or object of the governing verb, or when it has already been made known in the sentence, it is not repeated with the infinitive.


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 99.04.0007

διὰ + accusative articular infinitive is a very common way of expressing "because" in ancient Greek. (Ancient, because modern Greek doesn't have infinitives.)

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Re: Acts 4, 1-3 partitive gen? + indirect statement? etc

Post by daivid »

Qimmik wrote:
Yes, the subject of an articular infinitive is accusative. (However, this holds true whatever case the articular infinitive happens to be, not just when it is accusative.) [/url]

διὰ + accusative articular infinitive is a very common way of expressing "because" in ancient Greek. (Ancient, because modern Greek doesn't have infinitives.)
Thanks for all the help. Now I have to think of some way to use it in the weather thread.
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Re: Acts 4, 1-3 partitive gen? + indirect statement? etc

Post by Markos »

I always thought that Bill Mounce's way of explaining the infinitive with subject accusative was very helpful. He says think of the infinite as noun, like a gerund, and think of the subject accusative as an accusative of respect. διὰ τὸ διδάσκειν αὐτοὺς τὸν λαὸν... "On account of the teaching the people in respect to them..."="on account of the fact that they were teaching the people."
Now I have to think of some way to use it in the weather thread.
ἐχάρην ἐν τῷ τὸν ἥλιον λάμπειν.

"I was happy at the shining in respect to the sun, at the fact that the sun was shining"

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Re: Acts 4, 1-3 partitive gen? + indirect statement? etc

Post by mwh »

:shock:
That’s a perfectly dreadful way to think of it. The accusative is simply the subject of the infinitive, just as in other constructions, such as acc.&inf. in indirect speech.

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