Luke 4:8

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Isaac Newton
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Luke 4:8

Post by Isaac Newton »

καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτῷ Γέγραπται Προσκυνήσεις Κύριον τὸν Θεόν σου καὶ αὐτῷ μόνῳ λατρεύσεις.
I've heard it said that Jesus is referring to himself in the third person here with αὐτῷ. Is this a reasonable proposition, contextually and grammatically ?
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

uberdwayne
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Re: Luke 4:8

Post by uberdwayne »

This seems like a thinly veiled attempt to start another Trinity debate.

All I have to do is say that "Κύριον τὸν Θεόν" refers to the God-head in its entirety, hence the pronoun. The Orthodox teaching is that the 3 are one, so it makes sense that the pronoun is singular, Θεόν is masculine singular, and since λατρεύσεις takes a dative, the pronoun is dative. I've just offered an interpretation that fits orthodoxy and fits grammar. Context will be argued forever, however, the Jews of the old testament did not need to understand the nature of God to serve Him. But this cannot be answered by going to the Greek:

My point....

This is not a question of Greek, but a question of who does the "third person pronoun" refer to, that is, its a question of interpretation, and no amount of scrutiny of the Greek will bring us any closer to the "right" interpretation.

perhaps you should take this question to a theology forum instead.
μείζων ἐστὶν ὁ ἐν ὑμῖν ἢ ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ

Isaac Newton
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Re: Luke 4:8

Post by Isaac Newton »

uberdwayne wrote:This seems like a thinly veiled attempt to start another Trinity debate.

All I have to do is say that "Κύριον τὸν Θεόν" refers to the God-head in its entirety, hence the pronoun. The Orthodox teaching is that the 3 are one, so it makes sense that the pronoun is singular, Θεόν is masculine singular, and since λατρεύσεις takes a dative, the pronoun is dative. I've just offered an interpretation that fits orthodoxy and fits grammar. Context will be argued forever, however, the Jews of the old testament did not need to understand the nature of God to serve Him. But this cannot be answered by going to the Greek:

.
A singular form of the personal pronoun in the GNT always refers to one "individual"/ "person." It would be ungrammatical Greek to refer to three individuals with a singular form of the pronoun, even if they had the same "nature". This is shown in the below example (John 17:11), and is indeed common sense, for we do not in Greek or in English refer to three men , Tom, Kostas, Stephen , with the singular form of the pronoun even though they all have the one and same "human nature."
My point....

This is not a question of Greek, but a question of who does the "third person pronoun" refer to, that is, its a question of interpretation, and no amount of scrutiny of the Greek will bring us any closer to the "right" interpretation.

perhaps you should take this question to a theology forum instead
This is absolutely a question of Greek gramar, at the most fundamental level. In Koine, one individual is referred to with a singular form of the pronoun, more than one individual is referred to with the plural form. This is always true. Here's a simple example:
καὶ οὐκέτι εἰμὶ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, καὶ αὐτοὶ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ εἰσίν, κἀγὼ πρὸς σὲ ἔρχομαι. Πάτερ ἅγιε, τήρησον αὐτοὺς ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί σου ᾧ δέδωκάς μοι, ἵνα ὦσιν ἓν καθὼς ἡμεῖς.
John 17:11

When Jesus is speaking of himself, he uses the singular pronoun (μοι), when he's speaking of himself and his Father, he uses the plural form (ἡμεῖς).
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

demetri
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Re: Luke 4:8

Post by demetri »

uberdwayne wrote:This seems like a thinly veiled attempt to start another Trinity debate.

All I have to do is say that "Κύριον τὸν Θεόν" refers to the God-head in its entirety, hence the pronoun. The Orthodox teaching is that the 3 are one, so it makes sense that the pronoun is singular, Θεόν is masculine singular, and since λατρεύσεις takes a dative, the pronoun is dative. I've just offered an interpretation that fits orthodoxy and fits grammar. Context will be argued forever, however, the Jews of the old testament did not need to understand the nature of God to serve Him. But this cannot be answered by going to the Greek:

My point....

This is not a question of Greek, but a question of who does the "third person pronoun" refer to, that is, its a question of interpretation, and no amount of scrutiny of the Greek will bring us any closer to the "right" interpretation.

perhaps you should take this question to a theology forum instead.
Bingo! Please give uberdwayne a cigar.

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Re: Luke 4:8

Post by uberdwayne »

A singular form of the personal pronoun in the GNT always refers to one "individual"/ "person."
or entity.

Again, interpretational, you are simply using grammar to mask the fact that you want to debate the trinity. Take it to another forum.
μείζων ἐστὶν ὁ ἐν ὑμῖν ἢ ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ

Isaac Newton
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Re: Luke 4:8

Post by Isaac Newton »

uberdwayne wrote:
A singular form of the personal pronoun in the GNT always refers to one "individual"/ "person."
or entity.

Again, interpretational, you are simply using grammar to mask the fact that you want to debate the trinity. Take it to another forum.
I get the distinct sense that you're being vague here. What exactly do you mean by "entity" ? Is it an individual ?

Grammar and context go hand in hand. The obvious ( I would say only) referent of αὐτῷ in Luke 4:8 is the Heavenly Father. If one denies this obvious reading , then one has the obligation to give a reasonable alternative. Simply saying that it refers to "something" (which is just about what you have done here) without elaborating is not good scholarship.
Last edited by Isaac Newton on Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

Isaac Newton
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Re: Luke 4:8

Post by Isaac Newton »

demetri wrote:
Bingo! Please give uberdwayne a cigar.
Interesting, because it is precisely theology , it seems to me, which is causing you to disgrgard the simple grammar and context of Luke 4:8.

I sense that I'm dealing with a coven of mostly "undercover" Trinitarians (and friends.)
Last edited by Isaac Newton on Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

Markos
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Re: Luke 4:8

Post by Markos »

uberdwayne wrote:But this cannot be answered by going to the Greek...This is not a question of Greek...
Dwayne is correct here. He is particularly correct in regard to you, Isaac, because, with all due respect, you are particularly dogmatic in your theology and, while I may be wrong, I get the sense that you are not all that fluent in Greek. But what Dwayne says applies almost always across the board. An appeal to Greek almost never illuminates the theology of the text. Almost all theological points can be debated equally well, usually better, based on the English instead on the Greek. This is the case here. You might as well ask why does the text say "him" instead of "us."

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Paul Derouda
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Re: Luke 4:8

Post by Paul Derouda »

Isaac Newton wrote:
καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτῷ Γέγραπται Προσκυνήσεις Κύριον τὸν Θεόν σου καὶ αὐτῷ μόνῳ λατρεύσεις.
I've heard it said that Jesus is referring to himself in the third person here with αὐτῷ. Is this a reasonable proposition, contextually and grammatically ?
You're right about this one, it refers to Κύριον τὸν Θεόν σου. But so what? From there on, it's no longer a question of Greek but a theological debate. While I don't think that it's forbidden to discuss interpretation here, the words debate and discussion imply that the participants listen to what the others have to say. In every thread of yours I've followed you just go on with your predetermined reasoning without ever giving a thought to what the others take great pains to explain to you.

Do you even realize the absurdity of saying the folks here are a conspiracy of "Trinitarians"? Look at the other threads here. How much "Trinitarianism" do you see in any thread you haven't started yourself? This forum is a place for discussion for people who are interested in Greek and Latin, regardless of their religious views (or the lack thereof – did that possibility ever occur to you?). The best proof that we're a mixed lot is that you still haven't been banned yourself, although you don't respect the basic courtesy rules with your repeated insinuations.

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Re: Luke 4:8

Post by Isaac Newton »

Hi Markos,
Markos wrote:
uberdwayne wrote:But this cannot be answered by going to the Greek...This is not a question of Greek...
But what Dwayne says applies almost always across the board. An appeal to Greek almost never illuminates the theology of the text. Almost all theological points can be debated equally well, usually better, based on the English instead on the Greek. This is the case here.
Thanks for your post, and hope you are well. But I'm not asking a theological question, and preteding that I am will no make the problem go away IMHO.

In Greek grammar (at least of the GNT), every pronoun has an antecedent, which is either explicitly stated or implicitly stated. Thus far no one here is willing to acknowledge the obvious antecedent of αὐτῷ, which is ὁ πατήρ . Instead I receive vague replies, that it refers to "an entity", to "something". No one is even willing to acknowledge that the antecedent refers to an individual.

You might as well ask why does the text say "him" instead of "us."
I don't see how this is analogous to what I'm asking though. Jesus identifies the antecedent of αὐτῷ as Κύριον τὸν θεόν. According to the Greek grammar (that is, according to the definition of the word κύριος as used in the bible) the antecedent must be a single individual, because he is called Κύριον τὸν Θεόν , the antecedent cannot be a "what" or a "thing." Wouldn't you agree ?

Dwayne is correct here. He is particularly correct in regard to you, Isaac, because, with all due respect, you are particularly dogmatic in your theology and, while I may be wrong, I get the sense that you are not all that fluent in Greek.
Yes I am, but the difference is that I'm honest about it, and do not pretend otherwise.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

Isaac Newton
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Re: Luke 4:8

Post by Isaac Newton »

Paul Derouda wrote:
Isaac Newton wrote:
καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτῷ Γέγραπται Προσκυνήσεις Κύριον τὸν Θεόν σου καὶ αὐτῷ μόνῳ λατρεύσεις.
I've heard it said that Jesus is referring to himself in the third person here with αὐτῷ. Is this a reasonable proposition, contextually and grammatically ?
You're right about this one, it refers to Κύριον τὸν Θεόν σου. But so what? From there on, it's no longer a question of Greek but a theological debate. While I don't think that it's forbidden to discuss interpretation here, the words debate and discussion imply that the participants listen to what the others have to say. In every thread of yours I've followed you just go on with your predetermined reasoning without ever giving a thought to what the others take great pains to explain to you.

Do you even realize the absurdity of saying the folks here are a conspiracy of "Trinitarians"? Look at the other threads here. How much "Trinitarianism" do you see in any thread you haven't started yourself? This forum is a place for discussion for people who are interested in Greek and Latin, regardless of their religious views (or the lack thereof – did that possibility ever occur to you?). The best proof that we're a mixed lot is that you still haven't been banned yourself, although you don't respect the basic courtesy rules with your repeated insinuations.
Thanks for acknowledging that. Now would you also acknowledge the obvious that the word κύριος in the bible, as to it's most basic definition, is always a reference to a "who" (e.g. an individual) and not to a "what" (e.g. a nature) ? This is not theology, this is a discussion of how the word κύριος is constantly and without exception defined in the bible.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

Isaac Newton
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Re: Luke 4:8

Post by Isaac Newton »

I cannot see how anyone could deny , except for theological reasons, that αὐτῷ in Luke 4:8 refers to the Father. Following are rather undeniable verses:
λέγει αὐτῇ ὁ Ἰησοῦς Πίστευέ μοι, γύναι, ὅτι ἔρχεται ὥρα ὅτε οὔτε ἐν τῷ ὄρει τούτῳ οὔτε ἐν Ἱεροσολύμοις προσκυνήσετε τῷ Πατρί.
John 4:21
ἀλλ’ ἡμῖν εἷς Θεὸς ὁ Πατήρ, ἐξ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς εἰς αὐτόν, καὶ εἷς Κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς δι’ αὐτοῦ.
1 Cor. 8:6

This is particularly important since Θεὸς and ὁ Πατήρ are in simple apposition, so that εἷς Θεὸς = ὁ Πατήρ , ὁ Πατήρ = εἷς Θεὸς, confirming through the route of greek grammar that the Father only is the one God.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

demetri
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Re: Luke 4:8

Post by demetri »

Isaac Newton wrote:
demetri wrote:
Bingo! Please give uberdwayne a cigar.
Interesting, because it is precisely theology , it seems to me, which is causing you to disgrgard the simple grammar and context of Luke 4:8.

I sense that I'm dealing with a coven of mostly "undercover" Trinitarians (and friends.)
Interesting word, coven. I take that as an insult. Precisely this is YOUR theology versus the entire reading of the Orthodox Church for whom this was not a translation debate - it was and still is their language.

Sorry, no cigar.

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Re: Luke 4:8

Post by Isaac Newton »

demetri wrote:
Interesting, because it is precisely theology , it seems to me, which is causing you to disgrgard the simple grammar and context of Luke 4:8.

I sense that I'm dealing with a coven of mostly "undercover" Trinitarians (and friends.)

Interesting word, coven. I take that as an insult. .
Am I wrong though to suggest that ? Is it not true that most (maybe all) of those who have posted in this thread thus far are trinitarians (or partial to them) , including yourself ?
Precisely this is YOUR theology versus the entire reading of the Orthodox Church for whom this was not a translation debate - it was and still is their language. Sorry, no cigar.
Sorry I don't understand what you mean..
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

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Re: Luke 4:8

Post by demetri »

It does not surprise me at all that you do not understand; and there is nothing anyone here can do to correct this shoe-horning, twisting of the language to suit your personal beliefs (here and elsewhere).

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Re: Luke 4:8

Post by Isaac Newton »

demetri wrote:It does not surprise me at all that you do not understand; and there is nothing anyone here can do to correct this shoe-horning, twisting of the language to suit your personal beliefs (here and elsewhere).
I should think those of you who are here arguing that Κύριον τὸν Θεόν is a "nature" / "essence" rather than an individual are guilty of that (bold above).. :)
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

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Re: Luke 4:8

Post by Markos »

Isaac Newton wrote:
demetri wrote:It does not surprise me at all that you do not understand; and there is nothing anyone here can do to correct this shoe-horning, twisting of the language to suit your personal beliefs (here and elsewhere).
I should think those of you who are here arguing that Κύριον τὸν Θεόν is a "nature" / "essence" rather than an individual are guilty of that (bold above).. :)
Isaac, if we wanted to play your game, we could say that the αὐτῷ in καὶ αὐτῷ μόνῳ λατρεύσεις is neuter and the reference here is to serving It (the Trinity.) But none of us are doing that, because unlike you, we do not think that scripture uses grammatical codes to make theological points.

Anyway, Paul has answered your question. Take ναί for an answer.

χάρις σοι ἐν ὀνόματι τοῦ Πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ Ἰησοῦ καὶ τοῦ Πνεύματος Ἁγίου.

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Re: Luke 4:8

Post by Isaac Newton »

Markos wrote:
Isaac Newton wrote:
demetri wrote:It does not surprise me at all that you do not understand; and there is nothing anyone here can do to correct this shoe-horning, twisting of the language to suit your personal beliefs (here and elsewhere).
I should think those of you who are here arguing that Κύριον τὸν Θεόν is a "nature" / "essence" rather than an individual are guilty of that (bold above).. :)
Isaac, if we wanted to play your game, we could say that the αὐτῷ in καὶ αὐτῷ μόνῳ λατρεύσεις is neuter and the reference here is to serving It (the Trinity.) But none of us are doing that, because unlike you, we do not think that scripture uses grammatical codes to make theological points.

Anyway, Paul has answered your question. Take ναί for an answer.

χάρις σοι ἐν ὀνόματι τοῦ Πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ Ἰησοῦ καὶ τοῦ Πνεύματος Ἁγίου.
You could try (though I'm glad none of you are daring to do so in my presence), but it would be an ungrammatical suggestion, because as I pointed out earlier the bible never defines Κύριον (ref. Κύριον τὸν Θεόν Luke 4:8 ) as a "thing", always as a single individual.

Unfortunately , the fact that it is not obvious to you that the antecedent of αὐτῷ in Luke 4:8 is ὁ πατήρ , proves to me that you're under a strong delusion.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

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Re: Luke 4:8

Post by C. S. Bartholomew »

Paul Derouda wrote:
Isaac Newton wrote:
καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτῷ Γέγραπται Προσκυνήσεις Κύριον τὸν Θεόν σου καὶ αὐτῷ μόνῳ λατρεύσεις.
I've heard it said that Jesus is referring to himself in the third person here with αὐτῷ. Is this a reasonable proposition, contextually and grammatically ?
You're right about this one, it refers to Κύριον τὸν Θεόν σου. But so what?
Give Paul and Dwayne each a cigar. One thing I like about this forum is we do not see threads instantaneously shut down for discussions that lapse into issues of interpretation. But you are testing the limits of tolerance by harping on old tired controversies that no one else wants to talk about. Go find an apologetics forum, eg. a Van Til forum. http://reformedforum.org/podcasts/ctc49/
C. Stirling Bartholomew

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Re: Luke 4:8

Post by Isaac Newton »

C. S. Bartholomew wrote:
Give Paul and Dwayne each a cigar. One thing I like about this forum is we do not see threads instantaneously shut down for discussions that lapse into issues of interpretation. But you are testing the limits of tolerance by harping on old tired controversies that no one else wants to talk about.
This is not a discussion about issues of "interpretation". If it is lapsing into that arena, it's certainly not my doing. Please address the following issue , or else hold your peace:

Could you furnish us an example from the bible where the noun κύριος refers to a thing rather than to an individual ?

Pretending that this is not a question which pertains to Greek grammar, is ofcourse not an option.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

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Re: Luke 4:8

Post by uberdwayne »

Could you furnish us an example from the bible where the noun κύριος refers to a thing rather than to an individual ?
first off, this is a "semantic" issue, not a grammatical one.

Secondly, there's no need to, I can't speak for all trinitarians, but I see the Trinity as a living entity, a being comprised of 3 distinct persons. They reign as 1 κύριος. I think we could all furnish examples of a being as a κύριος. Notice my interpretation?

The grammar here is neutral. Its like taking a trip overseas, your car can only take you so far, then you need some other mode of transportation. In the same way, Grammar can only take you so far, after that, you have to use another methode ie. interpretation!
Isaac Newton wrote:Unfortunately , the fact that it is not obvious to you that the antecedent of αὐτῷ in Luke 4:8 is ὁ πατήρ , proves to me that you're under a strong delusion.
This is strong evidence that Isaac sees himself as on a mission to rid these forums from the delusional thinking that is the trinity. Isaac, your not going to convert anyone.
μείζων ἐστὶν ὁ ἐν ὑμῖν ἢ ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ

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Re: Luke 4:8

Post by Isaac Newton »

uberdwayne wrote:
Could you furnish us an example from the bible where the noun κύριος refers to a thing rather than to an individual ?
first off, this is a "semantic" issue, not a grammatical one.

Secondly, there's no need to, I can't speak for all trinitarians,
but I see the Trinity as a living entity, a being comprised of 3 distinct persons
. They reign as 1 κύριος. I think we could all furnish examples of a being as a κύριος. Notice my interpretation?

The grammar here is neutral. Its like taking a trip overseas, your car can only take you so far, then you need some other mode of transportation. In the same way, Grammar can only take you so far, after that, you have to use another methode ie. interpretation!
Isaac Newton wrote:Unfortunately , the fact that it is not obvious to you that the antecedent of αὐτῷ in Luke 4:8 is ὁ πατήρ , proves to me that you're under a strong delusion.
This is strong evidence that Isaac sees himself as on a mission to rid these forums from the delusional thinking that is the trinity. Isaac, your not going to convert anyone.

But Jesus did not say "they" or "them" ( εἰσιν, αὐτοῖς ) are one κύριος in Luke 4:8 as you're doing, he said rather αὐτῷ ( he, singular) is κύριος . See the problem ?
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

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Re: Luke 4:8

Post by Isaac Newton »

τως λέγει ὁ θεὸς ὁ βασιλεὺς τοῦ ισραηλ ὁ ῥυσάμενος αὐτὸν θεὸς σαβαωθ ἐγὼ πρῶτος καὶ ἐγὼ μετὰ ταῦτα πλὴν ἐμοῦ οὐκ ἔστιν θεός
Isaiah 44:6,

In the bible the pronoun "I" always means one individual. So whoever this individual or "person" is, he is saying that apart from him there is no God.
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

uberdwayne
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Re: Luke 4:8

Post by uberdwayne »

But Jesus did not say "they" or "them" ( εἰσιν, αὐτοῖς ) are one κύριος in Luke 4:8 as you're doing, he said rather αὐτῷ ( he, singular) is κύριος . See the problem ?
Since you didn't get it from my last post, αὐτῷ is a reference to κυριον τον θεον (note: grammatical analysis ends here), which in turn is a reference to a single trinity. That is, 1 Trinity (There may be multiple persons in the trinity, but its 1 trinity), there are not 2 trinities out there, neither are there three, or four. We don't live in a universe that is exploding with devine trinities. The Trinity is a single Being that consists of 3 Persons. I don't think I can be any more clear then that.

I have to stop here, I'm spending too much time and you seem to be intentionally miss-reading my posts.
μείζων ἐστὶν ὁ ἐν ὑμῖν ἢ ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ

Isaac Newton
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Re: Luke 4:8

Post by Isaac Newton »

uberdwayne wrote:
But Jesus did not say "they" or "them" ( εἰσιν, αὐτοῖς ) are one κύριος in Luke 4:8 as you're doing, he said rather αὐτῷ ( he, singular) is κύριος . See the problem ?
Since you didn't get it from my last post, αὐτῷ is a reference to κυριον τον θεον (note: grammatical analysis ends here), which in turn is a reference to a single trinity. That is, 1 Trinity (There may be multiple persons in the trinity, but its 1 trinity), there are not 2 trinities out there, neither are there three, or four. We don't live in a universe that is exploding with devine trinities. The Trinity is a single Being that consists of 3 Persons. I don't think I can be any more clear then that.

I have to stop here, I'm spending too much time and you seem to be intentionally miss-reading my posts.
So αὐτῷ in Luke 4:8 according to you is not a reference to a particular "person"/ "individual", such as Jesus, or the Father, or apostle Paul but rather to a "being" made up of multiple personalities. Do I have the gist of it ?
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

Isaac Newton
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Re: Luke 4:8

Post by Isaac Newton »

But Jesus in John 17:3 discounts the notion (by the route of greek grammar) that he himself is God . Here one cannot play the "being" and "person" shell game because σὲ (the singular form of the pronoun) refers to the Father. Read what he says very carefully:
αὕτη δέ ἐστιν ἡ αἰώνιος ζωὴ, ἵνα γινώσκωσιν σὲ τὸν μόνον ἀληθινὸν Θεὸν καὶ ὃν ἀπέστειλας Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν.
If Jesus was also τὸν μόνον ἀληθινὸν Θεὸν , it seems to me that he could not have used the singular pronoun σὲ (meaning the Father) to call him the only true God, unless ofcourse he was lying .
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

cb
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Re: Luke 4:8

Post by cb »

hi all, i’m joining this chat as a complete beginner (see my first thread in this forum a few minutes ago – i only got interested in reading about this whole field this weekend) so please read/disregard my thoughts below on this basis…

it seems to be that a part of this discussion relates to grammatical analysis, a 2nd part to semantics/meaning and a 3rd part to context.

the discussion seems to be whether αὐτῷ in καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτῷ Γέγραπται Προσκυνήσεις Κύριον τὸν Θεόν σου καὶ αὐτῷ μόνῳ λατρεύσεις can, given its grammatically singular marking, refer to one or many.

the part of the discussion relating to grammar concerns whether a word that’s in the singular grammatically can refer to a plurality. yes it can, in many different ways that we need to separate.

- a word like πλῆθος refers to a plurality collectively, even though singular grammatically, and the criterion for determining that it refers to many things is the dictionary, i.e its semantic/meaning (2nd part of discussion)

- a word like τὸ Ἑλληνικόν can refer to a plurality collectively, even though singular grammatically, and at other times it can refer to a unity, and so the dictionary cannot be the criterion for determining whether it refers to a unity or plurality – it needs to be a combination of the dictionary and context (3rd part of discussion)

- the above two types refer to a plurality collectively, but you can also refer to a plurality distributively (getting these mixed up leads to fallacies like the apostles were 12, thomas was an apostle, therefore thomas was 12 – in the first premise 12 is applied to the apostles as a collective, but in the conclusion it is treated as if 12 is an attribute of each of the apostles distributively, a fallacy). and so eg if you take the commandments in exodus 20:2 and ff, 2 ᾿Εγώ εἰμι κύριος ὁ θεός σου, ὅστις ἐξήγαγόν σε ἐκ γῆς Αἰγύπτου ἐξ οἴκου δουλείας. 3 οὐκ ἔσονταί σοι θεοὶ ἕτεροι πλὴν ἐμοῦ…, rather than reading the 2nd person pronoun as applying only to one person, you can read it as applying distributively to a plurality, ie you and you and you and… (and i understand this is how the commandments are understood in christianity, ie not just applying to the person who received them). the only criterion for determining that it refers to many things is context.

how does this relate to the discussion? well, the question was whether αὐτῷ in καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτῷ Γέγραπται Προσκυνήσεις Κύριον τὸν Θεόν σου καὶ αὐτῷ μόνῳ λατρεύσεις refers to one or many. clearly αὐτῷ is not a word like πλῆθος, whose reference to plurality can be determined from the dictionary, or like τὸ Ἑλληνικόν whose reference to plurality can be determined through the dictionary plus context. It could however be like the 2nd person pronoun in the commandments, but here the only criterion for determining whether it refers to a unity or plurality is context.

therefore i agree with the majority of the posters above, that it ceases to be a grammatical question at this point because there is no criterion for determining distributive reference which can be taken from grammar, it comes from context.

the fact that Κύριον τὸν Θεόν is the grammatical referent of αὐτῷ doesn’t change this at all, it still doesn’t tell you if αὐτῷ is referring to Κύριον τὸν Θεόν as a unity or distributively as a plurality. this comes only from context, just like the 2nd person pronoun in the commandments.

the context here I assume depends on what doctrine you follow. i know nothing about any of them unfortunately. a quick internet search brought up this from the vatican:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism ... 1p2_lt.htm

paras 253-254 seem to be saying that for people who follow this doctrine (NB I am probably misunderstanding this doctrine as i’m reading it for the first time right now, i think everyone else on this forum must understand it better than I do, even if not everyone agrees with it, please substitute my explanation here with your own understanding), a reference to Κύριος ὁ Θεός (who I assume is the same as Deus in that link – is there a koine version?) is a singular reference to a unity of substance and a distributive (but not collective) reference to 3 persons.

how is this relevant to the discussion on grammar? well, if this particular doctrine (regardless of whether you accept it – I personally have no position on any of this in terms of theology or any doctrine) says that a reference to deus in that doctrine is a distributive (but not collective) reference to 3 persons and a reference to deus as a unity in terms of substance, then it’s perfectly possible grammatically that αὐτῷ in the original quote is a distributive reference to those 3 persons and a unity in terms of substance, in light of that doctrine. or it’s perfectly possible grammatically that it refers to a single unity, in light of another doctrine that does not recognise the trinity. context is the only criterion here, grammar cannot be, because i guess doctrine determines whether the grammatically singular reference is a singular reference or a distributive reference or whatever.

i get the feeling from the thread above that there’s an underlying discussion around whether grammar can resolve disputes of doctrine, ie whether the grammar of this or that quote can be used as a “crucial experiment” as they say in science between rival doctrines. i have no idea personally – it’s an interesting question, which i imagine there’s a lot of good writing about - but in this case it cannot be, because the grammar here can only be interpreted through context rather than through a criterion such as the dictionary, and so no crucial experiment based on grammatical analysis alone can be created in this case – the argument would be constantly drawn into a diallelos (vicious circle) argument.

cheers, chad

Isaac Newton
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Re: Luke 4:8

Post by Isaac Newton »

Hi chad,
cb wrote:hi all, i’m joining this chat as a complete beginner (see my first thread in this forum a few minutes ago – i only got interested in reading about this whole field this weekend) so please read/disregard my thoughts below on this basis…

it seems to be that a part of this discussion relates to grammatical analysis, a 2nd part to semantics/meaning and a 3rd part to context.

the discussion seems to be whether αὐτῷ in καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτῷ Γέγραπται Προσκυνήσεις Κύριον τὸν Θεόν σου καὶ αὐτῷ μόνῳ λατρεύσεις can, given its grammatically singular marking, refer to one or many.

the part of the discussion relating to grammar concerns whether a word that’s in the singular grammatically can refer to a plurality. yes it can, in many different ways that we need to separate.

- a word like πλῆθος refers to a plurality collectively, even though singular grammatically, and the criterion for determining that it refers to many things is the dictionary, i.e its semantic/meaning (2nd part of discussion)

- a word like τὸ Ἑλληνικόν can refer to a plurality collectively, even though singular grammatically, and at other times it can refer to a unity, and so the dictionary cannot be the criterion for determining whether it refers to a unity or plurality – it needs to be a combination of the dictionary and context (3rd part of discussion)

- the above two types refer to a plurality collectively, but you can also refer to a plurality distributively (getting these mixed up leads to fallacies like the apostles were 12, thomas was an apostle, therefore thomas was 12 – in the first premise 12 is applied to the apostles as a collective, but in the conclusion it is treated as if 12 is an attribute of each of the apostles distributively, a fallacy). and so eg if you take the commandments in exodus 20:2 and ff, 2 ᾿Εγώ εἰμι κύριος ὁ θεός σου, ὅστις ἐξήγαγόν σε ἐκ γῆς Αἰγύπτου ἐξ οἴκου δουλείας. 3 οὐκ ἔσονταί σοι θεοὶ ἕτεροι πλὴν ἐμοῦ…, rather than reading the 2nd person pronoun as applying only to one person, you can read it as applying distributively to a plurality, ie you and you and you and… (and i understand this is how the commandments are understood in christianity, ie not just applying to the person who received them). the only criterion for determining that it refers to many things is context.

how does this relate to the discussion? well, the question was whether αὐτῷ in καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτῷ Γέγραπται Προσκυνήσεις Κύριον τὸν Θεόν σου καὶ αὐτῷ μόνῳ λατρεύσεις refers to one or many. clearly αὐτῷ is not a word like πλῆθος, whose reference to plurality can be determined from the dictionary, or like τὸ Ἑλληνικόν whose reference to plurality can be determined through the dictionary plus context. It could however be like the 2nd person pronoun in the commandments, but here the only criterion for determining whether it refers to a unity or plurality is context.

therefore i agree with the majority of the posters above, that it ceases to be a grammatical question at this point because there is no criterion for determining distributive reference which can be taken from grammar, it comes from context.

the fact that Κύριον τὸν Θεόν is the grammatical referent of αὐτῷ doesn’t change this at all, it still doesn’t tell you if αὐτῷ is referring to Κύριον τὸν Θεόν as a unity or distributively as a plurality. this comes only from context, just like the 2nd person pronoun in the commandments.

the context here I assume depends on what doctrine you follow. i know nothing about any of them unfortunately. a quick internet search brought up this from the vatican:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism ... 1p2_lt.htm

paras 253-254 seem to be saying that for people who follow this doctrine (NB I am probably misunderstanding this doctrine as i’m reading it for the first time right now, i think everyone else on this forum must understand it better than I do, even if not everyone agrees with it, please substitute my explanation here with your own understanding), a reference to Κύριος ὁ Θεός (who I assume is the same as Deus in that link – is there a koine version?) is a singular reference to a unity of substance and a distributive (but not collective) reference to 3 persons.

how is this relevant to the discussion on grammar? well, if this particular doctrine (regardless of whether you accept it – I personally have no position on any of this in terms of theology or any doctrine) says that a reference to deus in that doctrine is a distributive (but not collective) reference to 3 persons and a reference to deus as a unity in terms of substance, then it’s perfectly possible grammatically that αὐτῷ in the original quote is a distributive reference to those 3 persons and a unity in terms of substance, in light of that doctrine. or it’s perfectly possible grammatically that it refers to a single unity, in light of another doctrine that does not recognise the trinity. context is the only criterion here, grammar cannot be, because i guess doctrine determines whether the grammatically singular reference is a singular reference or a distributive reference or whatever.

i get the feeling from the thread above that there’s an underlying discussion around whether grammar can resolve disputes of doctrine, ie whether the grammar of this or that quote can be used as a “crucial experiment” as they say in science between rival doctrines. i have no idea personally – it’s an interesting question, which i imagine there’s a lot of good writing about - but in this case it cannot be, because the grammar here can only be interpreted through context rather than through a criterion such as the dictionary, and so no crucial experiment based on grammatical analysis alone can be created in this case – the argument would be constantly drawn into a diallelos (vicious circle) argument.

cheers, chad
Let's concede for the moment that in Luke 4:8 Jesus is telling Satan to worship only the "Divine nature" (which is just another way of saying "Trinity" or "Godhead") and not to a particular "person." Why then did Jesus use the third person form of the pronoun if he too was a member of this "Trinity" ? Shouldn't we expect the first person here ? Like so:
καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτῷ Γέγραπται Προσκυνήσεις Κύριον τὸν Θεόν σου καὶ μοι μόνῳ λατρεύσεις.
Like he does here:
πολλοὶ ἐροῦσίν μοι ἐν ἐκείνῃ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ Κύριε Κύριε, οὐ τῷ σῷ ὀνόματι ἐπροφητεύσαμεν, καὶ τῷ σῷ ὀνόματι δαιμόνια ἐξεβάλομεν, καὶ τῷ σῷ ὀνόματι δυνάμεις πολλὰς ἐποιήσαμεν;
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

cb
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Re: Luke 4:8

Post by cb »

hi, sorry, i don't know personally. too new to nt greek. cheers, chad

Isaac Newton
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Re: Luke 4:8

Post by Isaac Newton »

Look at the Athanasian Creed :
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
According to Trinitarian Orthodoxy the word "God" connotes a "what", not a "who". The pronoun "they" refers to individuals, "persons" if you like, that is, the three "whos" who are each [apparently] "God."

Question: Are we to believe that Jesus in Luke 4:8 is telling Satan that worshipers of God are to worship a "what" rather than a "who" ?
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

Isaac Newton
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Re: Luke 4:8

Post by Isaac Newton »

Food for thought:

It has been said in this thread that Κύριον τὸν Θεόν in Luke 4:8 is a reference to the "Trinity" (to a "what") rather than to a single person or to a single individual (like ὁ πατήρ).

But where is the evidence that κύριος ever connotes anything/anyone other than a single individual in the bible ? We don't want to blindly accept a definition of κύριος which is unbiblical, do we, .. a definition which finds no precedent in the GNT ? Should we not rather define this biblical word (Κύριον) by how the bible constantly and without exception uses it ,-- as denoting a single person ?
Οὐαὶ οἱ λέγοντες τὸ πονηρὸν καλὸν καὶ τὸ καλὸν πονηρόν, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ σκότος φῶς καὶ τὸ φῶς σκότος, οἱ τιθέντες τὸ πικρὸν γλυκὺ καὶ τὸ γλυκὺ πικρόν

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