Translation Koine

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erik550c
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Translation Koine

Post by erik550c »

Hello I am just coming across a few sentences in my graded reader from the 1950s and I have had some trouble translating these two sentences. I didn't write down the preceding and following sentences for context, maybe you can still help me figure it out. Koine.

1. ὁ πιστεύων ἐν ἐμοί, οὗτος ἀδελφός μου και μήτηρ ἐστιν. How can the one believing in Him be His brother and she is somebody's (who) mother? This is from when Jesus told John behold your mother and behold your son to Mary, I think, but I am thinking exegeticaly just the way it was presented in my reader.

2. πολλὰ μὲν οὖν καὶ ἄλλα σημεῖα ἐποίησεν ὁ ἰησοῦς ἐνώπιον τῶν μαθητῶν ἃ οὐκ ἔστιν γεγραμμένα; This one looks easy, but it has an awful lot of "indeed," "therefore," "much," "and," and "but."

Thanks!

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jeidsath
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Re: Translation Koine

Post by jeidsath »

Some hints.

1.

Μήτηρ μου καὶ ἀδελφοί μου οὗτοί εἰσιν, οἱ τὸν λόγον τοῦ Θεοῦ ἀκούοντες καὶ ποιοῦντες αὐτόν.

Ἴδε ἡ μήτηρ μου. καὶ οἱ ἀδελφοί μου. ὃς γὰρ ἂν ποιήσῃ τὸ θέλημα τοῦ Θεοῦ, οὗτος ἀδελφός μου καὶ ἀδελφή μου καὶ μήτηρ ἐστί.

2.

Notice that the μὲν is unaccompanied. In the real text, you can expect a following δὲ in the next sentence. ἄλλα is not but. πολλά is many. I hope that makes it easier!
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

erik550c
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Re: Translation Koine

Post by erik550c »

jeidsath wrote:Some hints.

1.

Μήτηρ μου καὶ ἀδελφοί μου οὗτοί εἰσιν, οἱ τὸν λόγον τοῦ Θεοῦ ἀκούοντες καὶ ποιοῦντες αὐτόν.

Ἴδε ἡ μήτηρ μου. καὶ οἱ ἀδελφοί μου. ὃς γὰρ ἂν ποιήσῃ τὸ θέλημα τοῦ Θεοῦ, οὗτος ἀδελφός μου καὶ ἀδελφή μου καὶ μήτηρ ἐστί.

2.

Notice that the μὲν is unaccompanied. In the real text, you can expect a following δὲ in the next sentence. ἄλλα is not but. πολλά is many. I hope that makes it easier!
Thanks for the response. Away from the computer for a week. I'll review this then. Thank you.

erik550c
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Re: Translation Koine

Post by erik550c »

jeidsath wrote:Some hints.

1.

Μήτηρ μου καὶ ἀδελφοί μου οὗτοί εἰσιν, οἱ τὸν λόγον τοῦ Θεοῦ ἀκούοντες καὶ ποιοῦντες αὐτόν.

Ἴδε ἡ μήτηρ μου. καὶ οἱ ἀδελφοί μου. ὃς γὰρ ἂν ποιήσῃ τὸ θέλημα τοῦ Θεοῦ, οὗτος ἀδελφός μου καὶ ἀδελφή μου καὶ μήτηρ ἐστί.

2.

Notice that the μὲν is unaccompanied. In the real text, you can expect a following δὲ in the next sentence. ἄλλα is not but. πολλά is many. I hope that makes it easier!
But why would she be His mother or wife? "μήτηρ ἐστί" ? Is this regarding that the Church is Christ's wife (edit: I was mistaken about the location of this passage. It was not when Christ declared John to be Mary's son and she his wife. Somewhere else.)? Also, I've been coming across verse after verse where the subject is plural (multiple noun subjects), but the verb's personal ending is singular. I did find an explication in one of my readers, that even though the verb is singular, it can refer to a plural subject because the Greeks (Koine) used a singular verb even when referring to a plural subject because the first subject is closer to the verb in the sentence. Well, that's what the reader said. Example: " ἔρχεται ἡ μήτηρ αὐτοῦ καὶ οἱ ἀδελφοὶ αὐτοῦ. "

polemistes
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Re: Translation Koine

Post by polemistes »

Think of the ὁ πιστεύων and οὗτος as generalizations, and therefore they can have both a masculine and feminine noun ἀδελφός καὶ μήτηρ, as predicates. μήτηρ can not mean wife, only mother, and this is probably from where Jesus is asked to leave his disciples and go back to his family.

In Greek the verb can sometimes be singular even when the subject is made up of several parts, like in your example, but that is not the case here, since the subject is οὗτος, and ἀδελφός μου και μήτηρ is the predicate. The most common case of singular verb with a plural noun, is when the noun is neutral. Then the verb is almost always singular.

erik550c
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Re: Translation Koine

Post by erik550c »

polemistes wrote:Think of the ὁ πιστεύων and οὗτος as generalizations, and therefore they can have both a masculine and feminine noun ἀδελφός καὶ μήτηρ, as predicates. μήτηρ can not mean wife, only mother, and this is probably from where Jesus is asked to leave his disciples and go back to his family.

In Greek the verb can sometimes be singular even when the subject is made up of several parts, like in your example, but that is not the case here, since the subject is οὗτος, and ἀδελφός μου και μήτηρ is the predicate. The most common case of singular verb with a plural noun, is when the noun is neutral. Then the verb is almost always singular.
Okay! Thank you.

erik550c
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Re: Translation Koine

Post by erik550c »

polemistes wrote:Think of the ὁ πιστεύων and οὗτος as generalizations, and therefore they can have both a masculine and feminine noun ἀδελφός καὶ μήτηρ, as predicates. μήτηρ can not mean wife, only mother, and this is probably from where Jesus is asked to leave his disciples and go back to his family.

In Greek the verb can sometimes be singular even when the subject is made up of several parts, like in your example, but that is not the case here, since the subject is οὗτος, and ἀδελφός μου και μήτηρ is the predicate. The most common case of singular verb with a plural noun, is when the noun is neutral. Then the verb is almost always singular.
Btw, I reread all passages concerning this topic from a different manuscript than the UBS IV (being the T.R.), and the T.R. presents the verses so much more clearly. I believe I fully understand this now and I see how the Greek can work.

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Re: Translation Koine

Post by jeidsath »

What you posted at the beginning wasn't exactly a bible verse (highly altered for a reader). Post the verses and your translation so that we can comment.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

erik550c
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Re: Translation Koine

Post by erik550c »

jeidsath wrote:What you posted at the beginning wasn't exactly a bible verse (highly altered for a reader). Post the verses and your translation so that we can comment.
Yes, I am aware. Maybe reading it from three different sources helped me understand it. I will reply with this, but I have to wait till next weekend.

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Re: Translation Koine

Post by jeidsath »

That's fine. Just so you know, there aren't any substantial differences between the Textus Receptus and Wescott and Hort for the verses that you've quoted. For each verse, the Textus Receptus has an extraneous αὐτός, but I don't see it affecting the intelligibility very much in either direction.

That said, by all means enjoy reading the Textus Receptus. The textual arguments are the least important part of reading any worthwhile text. In the TR, you're reading the text as the Eastern Roman Empire read it for a thousand years, and in Europe from the time of Erasmus down until the 20th century.

1.
TR wrote:Μήτηρ μου καὶ ἀδελφοί μου οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ ἀκούοντες καὶ ποιοῦντες αὐτὸν
W&H wrote:Μήτηρ μου καὶ ἀδελφοί μου οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ τὸν λόγον τοῦ Θεοῦ ἀκούοντες καὶ ποιοῦντες.
2.
W&H wrote:Πολλὰ μὲν οὖν καὶ ἄλλα σημεῖα ἐποίησεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἐνώπιον τῶν μαθητῶν, [αὐτοῦ] ἃ οὐκ ἔστιν γεγραμμένα
TR wrote:Πολλὰ μὲν οὖν καὶ ἄλλα σημεῖα ἐποίησεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἐνώπιον τῶν μαθητῶν αὐτοῦ ἃ οὐκ ἔστιν γεγραμμένα
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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