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by mwh
Mon May 13, 2019 8:14 pm
Forum: Composition Board
Topic: The Road to Serfdom in Cartoons
Replies: 5
Views: 197

Re: The Road to Serfdom in Cartoons

Ἡ πρὸς δουλείαν ὁδὸς ἐν εἴκοσιν
"in 20 <steps>"? :twisted:

i.e. correct the accent.
by mwh
Sat May 04, 2019 1:56 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Classical Greek texts with macrons?
Replies: 21
Views: 903

Re: Classical Greek texts with macrons?

Eta and o-mega were latecomers into the Greek alphabet; in early days all five vowels went without long/short differentiation in writing, and separate letters were never invented for long alpha iota upsilon. Readers normally had no need of makron marking, any more than we feel the need to mark long ...
by mwh
Sat May 04, 2019 1:48 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Classical Greek texts with macrons?
Replies: 21
Views: 903

Re: Classical Greek texts with macrons?

Duplicate deleted.
by mwh
Thu May 02, 2019 7:50 pm
Forum: Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
Topic: Χριστὸς ἀνέστη?
Replies: 9
Views: 645

Re: Χριστὸς ἀνέστη?

Not true. Most "second" aorists are transitive. And Constantin, So far today you have posted at least thirteen posts, and not a single one is helpful or consequential. Might I suggest you post only when you have a thoughtful question to ask or when you have a substantive contribution to make? There ...
by mwh
Thu May 02, 2019 6:46 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Délibération subj
Replies: 3
Views: 132

Re: Délibération subj

You should think twice before disagreeing with Burnet—or simply think. προσθῇς ἢ ἀφέλῃς is clearly dependent on ἵνα, just as μή τι διαφύγῃ ἡμᾶς is. You failed to take τε “and” into account, which links the two parts of the ἵνα clause, the one negative, the other positive. Your suggestion was nonsens...
by mwh
Wed May 01, 2019 9:07 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Il 362
Replies: 5
Views: 344

Re: Il 362

Constantin’s method of scanning is just as good as Barry’s, if not better (less question-begging). But both are badly inadequate, inasmuch as they fail to recognize the caesura, here coinciding with the syntactical structure. There’s only one break in the line, and it comes after κλαιεις. Scanning f...
by mwh
Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:18 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Empta intercessione
Replies: 5
Views: 259

Re: Empta intercessione

He's claiming the intercession was “bought” i.e. procured by bribery. Vote buying is not a new practice.
by mwh
Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:12 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: The Cambridge Grammar of Classical Greek
Replies: 20
Views: 3358

Re: The Cambridge Grammar of Classical Greek

Many copies of the grammar have been distributed, unsolicited and gratis, to classicists in the US, and perhaps in the UK and elsewhere too. (Not, of course, to their students.) So I was wrong to say it’s not well positioned to gain much traction. Cambridge is really keen to establish this as the st...
by mwh
Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:29 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Elision in Greek Prose
Replies: 3
Views: 198

Re: Elision in Greek Prose

In antiquity elided vowels were often written in full (“scriptio plena”), as likewise in our modern printed prose texts, but it’s safe to assume that elision was normally effected, except at a break such as the end of a clause. No-one will have said δὲ ἄρχεται, for instance.
by mwh
Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:25 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series
Replies: 45
Views: 2229

Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

We live and learn. And there’s a difference between singing someone and singing about them. The Homeric hymn to Demeter starts Δήμητρ᾽ ἠύκομον, σεμνὴν θεόν, ἄρχομ᾽ ἀείδειν, and Vergil’s Aeneid (where you will again encounter Palinurus) starts arma virumque cano.
by mwh
Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:38 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Supter with acc
Replies: 7
Views: 284

Re: Supter with acc

I find it more rewarding to read Latin than grammars. supter: I think not only of Lucretius’ proemium but also of Catullus’ pathetic poem on the death of his brother, Cat.66: Troia Rhoeteo quem supter litore tellus, a line that Vergil would have been proud of. There supter is no different from sub, ...
by mwh
Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:34 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series
Replies: 45
Views: 2229

Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

In chapter XX.3 of Fabellae Latinae, "absentem cantat amīcam" was surprising to me. I had only seen the verb used transitively before this. Is "absentis amica" a specific song? Not sure I follow this. cantat is being used transitively. (Cf. μῆνιν ἄειδε.) And his amica is not absentis (genitive) but...
by mwh
Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:53 am
Forum: Composition Board
Topic: Lyric Poetry in Attic?
Replies: 2
Views: 152

Re: Lyric Poetry in Attic?

As you realize, there are generic proprieties, dialectal and other. The lyric parts of Attic drama are composed in a dialectally much watered-down version of “Doric” lyric poetry (Stesichorus, Bacchylides, etc.). Their vocabulary is significantly more elevated than the non-lyric parts and is specifi...
by mwh
Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:32 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Supter with acc
Replies: 7
Views: 284

Re: Supter with acc

No you have not understood. In the Lucretius there is motion, as I explicitly said and explained.
by mwh
Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:35 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Ώσπερ έχει ουτως
Replies: 2
Views: 146

Re: Ώσπερ έχει ουτως

ὥσπερ and οὕτως are correlative. ὥσπερ ἔχει, οὕτως ἂν ἡγήσατο “just as it is, so would he have thought," i.e. “he would correctly have thought …” or “he’d have thought, as is in fact the case, …,”
by mwh
Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:34 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Supter with acc
Replies: 7
Views: 284

Re: Supter with acc

But there is motion. Just as the constellations slide over the earth and ocean (from a terrestrial viewpoint), so earth and ocean correspondingly slide beneath them. Nothing stands still in Lucretius. Besides, this is a highly poetic passage.
by mwh
Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:19 am
Forum: Latin Poetry
Topic: Introduction to Latin poetry
Replies: 22
Views: 1230

Re: Introduction to Latin poetry

jeidsath, Two things on these early Latin iambic meters (and analogously on the trochaic ones). # These three verse forms, corresponding respectively to the Greek iambic trimeter and the catalectic and acatalectic iambic tetrameter, show only the basic structure, which admits of multiple variations—...
by mwh
Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:30 pm
Forum: Latin Poetry
Topic: Introduction to Latin poetry
Replies: 22
Views: 1230

Re: Introduction to Latin poetry

Sorry Hylander, that won't wash. The stress patterns are a port of the poetry, a highly significant part, as you must be aware. Features that are killed stone dead by bashing the beat come to life when so-called ictus ("ictus fictus," as I think you once quipped) is simply ignored. Ictus inheres in ...
by mwh
Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:41 pm
Forum: Latin Poetry
Topic: Introduction to Latin poetry
Replies: 22
Views: 1230

Re: Introduction to Latin poetry

What I actually meant about elision as opposed to correption was not orthographical practice with regard to elision (that’s merely superficial) but the fact that word-final long vowels in classical Latin verse, when followed by a word beginning with a vowel, are normally fully elided (that is, they ...
by mwh
Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:20 am
Forum: Latin Poetry
Topic: Introduction to Latin poetry
Replies: 22
Views: 1230

Re: Introduction to Latin poetry

A few fundamentals. 1. Latin takes over the Greek stichic meters (dactylic hexameter, elegiac; iambic and trochaic in various lengths). Catullus and Horace introduce the Lesbian meters too. 2. Archaic Latin comedy (esp. Plautus) is very different from classical Latin, both in its patterns of stress ...
by mwh
Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:20 pm
Forum: Composition Board
Topic: iambic practice
Replies: 5
Views: 356

Re: iambic practice

Well, you won’t improve on Euripides and I won’t comment on your attempt beyond saying that your best line is κοὐδείς κάτοιδεν εἰ μενεῖ τὸ ζῆν ἔτι and your worst probably οὔ μοι δοκεἶ. πῶς γὰρ ἂν; μου δέ συ κλύῃς, which doesn’t come close to being metrical. Incidentally, Heracles’ little disquisitio...
by mwh
Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:18 pm
Forum: Composition Board
Topic: Latin for lollies?
Replies: 5
Views: 378

Re: Latin for lollies?

Very nicely done. ros tuum flebit, periture, lapsum nocte cadente is excellent (though the imagery is hardly Latin). In the final stanza tellus fit mage tota is I suppose defensible (since much of the earth already is coal) but mage is jarring with tota. I think the postponed ut with pyxidem is unob...
by mwh
Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:56 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Dubious construction
Replies: 4
Views: 258

Re: Dubious construction

This is an artificially contrived ambiguity. In context (Plato’s version of Socrates’ defense speech) there’s not the slightest doubt as to the meaning. Besides, in the original sentence isn’t there a ἑκών too? That makes it absolutely clear (as if there could be any doubt) that the speaker is the s...
by mwh
Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:05 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Plutarch, Agis, 17.2 placing the verb inside the subject
Replies: 18
Views: 665

Re: Plutarch, Agis, 17.2 placing the verb inside the subject

I wouldn't speak of reasons but of functions. And I'd deconstruct your tripartition.
That's all from me for now.
by mwh
Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:35 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille
Replies: 48
Views: 50265

Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Time magazine described Winnie Ille Pu on first publication as “a Latinist's delight, the very book that dozens of Americans, possibly even 50, have been waiting for.” But it sold a little more widely than that, and I was one who found it a delight, and very clever. Obviously it’s no way to learn La...
by mwh
Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:34 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Hæc enim sanctarum Scripturarum editio, cum Sixto v regnante patrata fuisset
Replies: 1
Views: 165

Re: Hæc enim sanctarum Scripturarum editio, cum Sixto v regnante patrata fuisset

“Pope Clement VIII's name is attached (“adhaeret”) to the Vulgate by happenstance. For while this edition of the holy Scriptures was prepared in the reign of Sixtus V, on his death it was published under Clement's pontificate.” The reference is to a revision of Jerome’s Vulgate overseen by Sixtus. C...
by mwh
Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:31 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Plutarch, Agis, 17.2 placing the verb inside the subject
Replies: 18
Views: 665

Re: Plutarch, Agis, 17.2 placing the verb inside the subject

(@ ἑκηβόλος. Written earlier but not posted) δεῖ με … ἐγκαταβιῶναι ταύταις ταῖς συμφοραῖς. Your proffered alternative, δεῖ με … καταβιῶναι ταύταις ταῖς συμφοραῖς would scarcely make sense. He could have written δεῖ με καταβιῶναι ἐν ταύταις ταῖς συμφοραῖς, but the preposition was already incorporated...
by mwh
Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:51 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Aorist /pres inf not in oration obliqua
Replies: 5
Views: 302

Re: Aorist /pres inf not in oration obliqua

The pres./aor. aspectual distinction, which I tried to explain in terms of “process” vs. “event” in response to the OP’s difficulty, doesn’t only apply in the infinitive, but much more broadly, across all moods. Xenophon says “We were willing to make him king,” using the present infinitive καθιστανα...
by mwh
Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:28 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Two More Unit 10 Questions
Replies: 15
Views: 530

Re: Two More Unit 10 Questions

There was actually a thread about that.. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61883. (If Qimmik sounds awfully much like Hylander, there's a reason for that.)
by mwh
Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:40 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Two More Unit 10 Questions
Replies: 15
Views: 530

Re: Two More Unit 10 Questions

With all due respect to Randy, I’d say ignore what he says about the grammar. And I’d say Do not think about the English, think about the Greek, and get comfortable with the acc.&inf. construction of ##2 and 7, where the accusative is the subject of the infinitive. (Forget about “the governed main c...
by mwh
Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:04 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Aorist /pres inf not in oration obliqua
Replies: 5
Views: 302

Re: Aorist /pres inf not in oration obliqua

No. It’s a matter of aspect (Germ. Aspekt). Smyth 1865 describes it in terms of “continuance” (pres.) vs. “simple occurrence” (aor.). Or it can be thought of in terms of process (pres.) vs. event (aor.). Aspect is not a term Smyth has much use for, but more modern works do, and it’s a very important...
by mwh
Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:30 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Opt after sub or imper
Replies: 3
Views: 183

Re: Opt after sub or imper

It's Homer.
by mwh
Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:16 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: diachronic syllabificiation of ἐξακολουθῶ
Replies: 17
Views: 1558

Re: diachronic syllabificiation of ἐξακολουθῶ

Joel, there are too many muddles here for me to wade through. Just one or two points that I think are both unarguable and fundamental. #Syllabification in verse is a regularization of syllabification in ordinary speech (as I said before). #In verse, unlike in prose, the syllabified unit is the metri...
by mwh
Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:58 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Xen. Memor. 1, 7, 3
Replies: 6
Views: 344

Re: Xen. Memor. 1, 7, 3

ουκ αν έχoις ο τι χρωο σαυτω. (You mistakenly typed έχεις. And γενεσθω is not subjunctive.) This is just one more example of opt. in a subordinate clause depending on opt.+αν in the leading clause, just like the one you started with, απολεσειεν αν ους ηκιστα βουλοιτο, and the examples in Smyth. You ...
by mwh
Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:58 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Xen. Memor. 1, 7, 3
Replies: 6
Views: 344

Re: Xen. Memor. 1, 7, 3

I too have reservations about Smyth’s formulations and his terminology, which to my mind make things unduly complicated and messy. There are subordinate clauses with optative, and subordinate clauses with subjunctive+ἄν (and of course subordinate clauses with indicative, and with plain subjunctive, ...
by mwh
Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:13 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Ilias Latina
Replies: 5
Views: 489

Re: Ilias Latina

Well I imagine there were a good number of literate Romans who even if they could read the original Greek might well have welcomed a hexameter abridgment of the Iliad in their own language. But it’s impressively faithful*—I’m tempted to say it assumes familiarity with the original Greek. My point wa...
by mwh
Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:14 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Ф580
Replies: 6
Views: 453

Re: Ф580

Definitely tentasset, as Hylander explained, backed up by the relevant A&G quote.
And Constantinus, you misquoted the Homeric verse as having πριν πειρησαιτ'αν Αχιληος. There’s no αν. That would be against both syntax and meter.
by mwh
Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:39 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Ilias Latina
Replies: 5
Views: 489

Re: Ilias Latina

I shouldn’t think so. Just why it was written is not very clear, but it doesn’t look to me as if the Latin itself (as distinct from the narrative) is simplified. It's less simple than Homer’s Greek. The work served to make the Iliad accessible to the Greekless. Which is why in the West it effectivel...
by mwh
Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:55 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: New doubt about Ion
Replies: 12
Views: 451

Re: New doubt about Ion

No there's no reason to suspect the given text. As I've tried to show, the construction is not ungrammatical, and even if it were that wouldn't necessarily be fatal.
by mwh
Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:31 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: New doubt about Ion
Replies: 12
Views: 451

Re: New doubt about Ion

There οἷά τε is neut.pl. used like the singular, and without a subject, “so high that it’s not possible to see its peaks” (ὡς used like ὡστε). ἑκάστῃ τῶν τεχνῶν ἀποδέδοται οἵᾳ τε εἶναι To each of the technai is it given to be (εἶναι) able (οἵᾳ τε). Infin. as regularly with (-)didwmi, epitrepw and su...