Search found 3133 matches

by mwh
Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:58 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Vacation reading
Replies: 10
Views: 181

Re: Vacation reading

At its best this board makes it possible for a bunch of scattered people to be digitally in the same room together, and imagine if we were all resorting to the LSJ or Google in a conversation. But Joel this is Textkit, not any old chat room, and I’d say it’s at its best when people come for help an...
by mwh
Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:54 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Attested Latin words with three vowels in a row?
Replies: 13
Views: 339

Re: Attested Latin words with three vowels in a row?

Confirmation: Ov.AA.1.459f.
disce bonas artes moneo Romana iuventus,
non tantum trepidos ut tueare reos:
(You can guess the continuation: ... eloquio victa puella ....)
by mwh
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:53 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: Attested Latin words with three vowels in a row?
Replies: 13
Views: 339

Re: Attested Latin words with three vowels in a row?

There seems little prospect of reaching a definitive solution for the complex textual problems, which accordingly I won’t weigh in on, but as to the original question I don’t think that a word’s having three vowels in a row would in itself be much of an inhibition against using it, unless the result...
by mwh
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:57 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 1866

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

Just popping in here again, to say I agree with almost everything Paul has written in this thread (which I confess I haven’t done more than skim). One slight reservation: I’m not so sure we should imagine Odysseus is only pretending when he says ἄντην δ᾽ οὐκ ἂν ἐγώ γε λοέσσομαι· αἰδέομαι γὰρ γυμνοῦσ...
by mwh
Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:29 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Plato dictionary
Replies: 4
Views: 389

Re: Plato dictionary

Ast’s Lexicon Platonicum is what you're after. It's old but not superseded and never will be. You need Latin to make full use of it. You can find it on Google Books.
by mwh
Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:13 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 1866

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

A final word of clarification, and then I’m out. αἰσχύνη the noun may not occur in Homer but the verb and plenty of cognates do (aischros and aischos among them), which should show you how the Homeric concept differs from aidos and cognates. I agree with the nimia in minimis diligentia dictum (as my...
by mwh
Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:32 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 1866

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

Seneca, The point was there’s a difference between aidos and aischunh . You showed no awareness of that in your post. Just why Od feels aidos (or just claims to feel aidos, if you prefer) is something we can speculate about, if we care to. I gave my view. And of course it’s not a question of how he ...
by mwh
Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:40 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 1866

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

Seneca, you’re evidently not acquainted with scholarship on aidos . I’m surprised at you relying on an English “dictionary definition.” You must be aware that some Greek words don't translate well. Far from importing our own sensibility into the text Paul and I are respecting the sensibilities inher...
by mwh
Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:25 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238
Replies: 45
Views: 1866

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

As I think I suggested before, it’s worth paying attention to how aidws operates. At the beginning fo bk.3 Telemachus says that aidws inhibits young men from questioning their elders, and accordingly he has to overcome his aidws in order to address Nestor. (We can say that Athene emboldens him, but ...
by mwh
Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:23 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: PRAYER FOR LIGHT IN ILIAD
Replies: 2
Views: 199

Re: PRAYER FOR LIGHT IN ILIAD

ἐν δὲ φάει καὶ ὄλεσσον. Destroy us in the light. Yes, that's what Ajax tells Zeus (in part) in Iliad 17. Longinus On the Sublime fastens on the passage as an example of sublimity (height), and quite right too. It makes a tremendous impression. As does Ajax' silence when he encounters Odysseus in the...
by mwh
Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:16 am
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: And another question regarding Hillard and Botting’s elem. exercises.
Replies: 13
Views: 721

Re: And another question regarding Hillard and Botting’s elem. exercises.

It so happens that Nigel Wetters Gourlay, who wrote the answers, is a parish councillor for Chapel en le Frith, where I used to live. He may be a good Tory but I wouldn’t care to interrogate his Latin too closely. The difference between dative and ad+acc. in these sentences is simply the difference ...
by mwh
Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:25 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 186-210
Replies: 26
Views: 1356

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 186-210

the "λοῦσʼ ἐν ποταμῷ" is interesting - third person, twisting the facts to make her look better, or first person? Odysseus seems to get away with both at the same time It's unambiguously 3rd person. The active is transitive. Also you can’t go switching from one person to another and back again with...
by mwh
Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:37 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 141-161
Replies: 11
Views: 1072

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 141-161

Thanks Paul. If you hadn’t been away I wouldn’t have needed to post. I’m glad we’re on the same page. If ever I say anything you disagree with, do please say. You probably know the Odyssey better than I do, and I have wondered whether you're a god yourself. It’s clear enough that on parting with Nau...
by mwh
Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:29 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 186-210
Replies: 26
Views: 1356

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 186-210

Thanks for justifying my “impolite,” Paul, and saving me the trouble of explaining hospitality protocols. I think I can take a back seat from now on.
by mwh
Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:03 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 186-210
Replies: 26
Views: 1356

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 186-210

What I think should strike us about Nausicaa is her self-possession. That applies to her earlier interaction with her father too. Here the poet highlights the fact that unlike her maids she is not fazed in the slightest by Od’s appearance, and now that she responds to his supplication I don’t think ...
by mwh
Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:41 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Plat., Protag.
Replies: 68
Views: 2930

Re: Plat., Protag. 354b

ταῦτα δὲ ἀγαθά ἐστι δι᾽.... in an old addition, δὲ is changed into δὴ, on the ground that ταῦτα must refer to the preceding γυμνάσια etc, Why? i do not get the reason. I doubt that’s why the change was proposed. δὴ is very attractive, but since it’s not transmitted, and not strictly "necessary," it...
by mwh
Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:31 am
Forum: Medieval and Neo-Latin
Topic: Help for a sentence from Gregorius III's letter
Replies: 4
Views: 613

Re: Help for a sentence from Gregorius III's letter

Thanks for explaining. I’d hoped that telling you what the sentence was saying would be enough, but here’s some help with the grammar: omnes nostros dolores object of posuimus. subtilius adverb with in ore posuimus; the comparative means “rather” not “more.” He’s given a detailed account (orally, no...
by mwh
Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:46 pm
Forum: Medieval and Neo-Latin
Topic: Help for a sentence from Gregorius III's letter
Replies: 4
Views: 613

Re: Help for a sentence from Gregorius III's letter

subtilius is a comparative form but there’s no real comparison. He’s just saying that he’s given a full account of his troubles to the bearer of the letter, who’s to tell Charles all about them.

Convince us you don’t just want us to do your work for you and we can explain the Latin to you.
by mwh
Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:28 pm
Forum: Medieval and Neo-Latin
Topic: Liber XXIV philosophorum
Replies: 3
Views: 609

Re: Liber XXIV philosophorum

Welcome mosburgo. This is intriguing. First, why 24? Does this reflect the theological significance of alpha&omega, as in Revelation? The Greek alphabet has 24 letters. (The two Homeric epics were each split into sections labelled alpha through omega.) That would confirm Greek origin for this little...
by mwh
Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:34 pm
Forum: Composition Board
Topic: greek elegiac couplets
Replies: 6
Views: 674

Re: greek elegiac couplets

As with Latin, the conventions get tightened up over time. There’s no obvious model. To supplement Theognidea (instructive but tiresome) I’d suggest at least Mimnermus and Simonides, and Solon, and Hellenistic poets such as Callimachus (Hymn 5 and the original of Catullus 66, a great cross-language ...
by mwh
Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:47 pm
Forum: Learning Latin
Topic: is vs ille
Replies: 7
Views: 438

Re: is vs ille

“Their” as opposed to “our” calls for illorum, not eorum. If ever there’s emphasis on “their” (as there is here), illorum will be appropriate; if not, eorum or nothing.

It's not really a matter of presence/absence. Ille is the opposite of hic; it distances.
by mwh
Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:20 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Plat., Protag.
Replies: 68
Views: 2930

Re: Prot 352e 353a

ὅ φασιν ὑπὸ τῶν ἡδονῶν ἡττᾶσθαι καὶ οὐ πράττειν διὰ ταῦτα τὰ βέλτιστα, ἐπεὶ γιγνώσκειν γε αὐτά. I think there is no need to suppose the subject τινα with those infinitives. This has to be read in the light of οἶσθα οὖν ὅτι οἱ πολλοὶ τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἐμοί τε καὶ σοὶ οὐ πείθονται, ἀλλὰ πολλούς φασι γιγνώ...
by mwh
Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:16 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Plat., Protag.
Replies: 68
Views: 2930

Re: Prot 353b

ᾗ οἶμαι ἂν ἔγωγε κάλλιστα φανερὸν γενέσθαι, would it be possible to use a fut inf instead of γενέσθαι? If you mean Would it have been possible for Plato to have used the future?, I guess the answer is Yes. The significant thing is that he didn’t. γενήσεσθαι would put undue stress on the futurity, p...
by mwh
Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:14 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ψεύδομαι
Replies: 1
Views: 202

Re: ψεύδομαι

This is simplistic. You’d do better to use LSJ.
by mwh
Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:50 pm
Forum: Composition Board
Topic: greek elegiac couplets
Replies: 6
Views: 674

Re: greek elegiac couplets

An impressive effort. I’m not at all comfortable writing elegiacs myself, I’m not sure why, they should be easy enough but they always want to come out as hexameters—as I read through the Hardy what floated into my head for the closing “Waits in unhope” was μένει ἐλπίδος ἐκτός! (which I guess could ...
by mwh
Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:43 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 141-161
Replies: 11
Views: 1072

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 141-161

No, in antiquity the distinction between gods and mortals is a hard-and-fast one, no less than the Judeo-Christian distinction between God and humans. It’s not to be reduced to a superior:inferior relationship, or to be viewed as simply a matter of degree. Gods are prayed to, fellow-mortals are supp...
by mwh
Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:53 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Typos in Posselius
Replies: 9
Views: 6279

Re: Typos in Posselius

Of course, more my errors may have crept it. Not so many as here, one hopes. :D In your previous post, wouldn’t the intended sense require not sunebainen but sunebh (“would have happened” rather than “would be happening”)? But from what I’ve seen of these dialogues, they’re very far from being a su...
by mwh
Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:12 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Plat., Protag.
Replies: 68
Views: 2930

Re: Prot 345c

No, ὅσοι καρπὸν αἰνύμεθα χθονός has no concessive force either (and I suspect you don't actually mean concessive). It’s a perfectly ordinary use of ὅσοι with indicative, “all of us who” (not "as many as there might be"). There’s no expressed antecedent (e.g. en pasin), but remember this is high lyri...
by mwh
Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:06 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Plat., Protag.
Replies: 68
Views: 2930

Re: Prot 345c

ὅσους δὴ ἐγὼ ἠρόμην simply means “everyone I asked” (lit. “as many as I asked”). There's no concessive force.
by mwh
Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:36 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: No Such Thing as a Stupid Question
Replies: 29
Views: 1552

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: No Such Thing as a Stupid Question

My goodness. So Sean thinks Odysseus really had no idea what Artemis looks like, and Seneca presumes he was told how Scamandrius described her to Menelaus in the Iliad. Seneca at least must be joking even if Sean is not. (I wouldn’t say it’s quite like the unicorn, whose name bespeaks its distinctiv...
by mwh
Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:41 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: No Such Thing as a Stupid Question
Replies: 29
Views: 1552

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: No Such Thing as a Stupid Question

OK I’ll play.

Ἀρτέμιδί σε ἐγώ γε, Διὸς κούρῃ μεγάλοιο,
εἶδός τε μέγεθός τε φυήν τ ̓ ἄγχιστα ἐΐσκω·
(6.151-2)

How does Odysseus know what Artemis looks like?


(As to τε μέγεθός, surely it’s better to say that the mu is doubled. An episilon can’t be long.)
by mwh
Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:14 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ὅτι + optative
Replies: 12
Views: 864

Re: ὅτι + optative

Double ditto.
by mwh
Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:00 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140
Replies: 29
Views: 1618

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140

ἄυσαν and ἀυτή - it's important to note that between these two words there's a hard shift in focalisation from Athena watching/influencing Nausicaa and those with her to Odysseus' perspective at line 119. Really? ἄυσαν is narratorial, “objective,” and κουράων θῆλυς ἀυτή is what Odysseus hears. The ...
by mwh
Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:10 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140
Replies: 29
Views: 1618

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140

I'm not sure that ἀυτή means a battle-cry outside of Iliadic-type battle context. I'd read κουράων θῆλυς ἀυτή much less menacingly. Certainly the nymphs of the next two verses hook up with Artemis' nymphs in last week's extended simile, but that depicted a perfectly happy and playful scene (I may ha...
by mwh
Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:55 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 93-118
Replies: 26
Views: 2150

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 93-118

A few disconnected casual pensées on this passage, the first taking off from Sean’s Shakespeare with its reminder of the danger of hunting wild boars. 1. Wild boars (noch einmal). ‘Thou hadst been gone,’ quoth she, ‘sweet boy, ere this, But that thou told’st me thou wouldst hunt the boar. O! be advi...
by mwh
Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:40 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Plat., Protag.
Replies: 68
Views: 2930

Re: Prot., 327d attraction into opt

No that’s not it at all! That wouldn’t make sense. It’s a continuation of the relative clause, with a slight anacoluthon (since οἷς has been left behind). If it helps, you can understand οἲ before εἶεν; that would make it grammatical, but would be unidiomatic. The sense, as you'd have realized if yo...
by mwh
Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:39 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Plat., Protag.
Replies: 68
Views: 2930

Re: Prot 329b

No, it’s the ordinary ει with optative, like εἰ δέοι in your 327d query, a regular if-clause (“if you’d just answer me this”). It’s as if πάντ᾽ αν ἔχοιμι had preceded rather than σμικροῦ τινος ἐνδεής εἰμι πάντ᾽ ἔχειν (“I’d have it all” rather than “I have it all but for one little thing”), so it’s s...
by mwh
Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:36 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Plat., Protag.
Replies: 68
Views: 2930

Re: Prot., 327d attraction into opt

Doubtless δέοι played a part in determining optative εἶεν, but we can’t simply say that εἶεν is attracted to the optative. Attracted from what? and how to account for it? From the indicative, presumably: ἐστὶν was used in the first part of the relative clause. But it’s important to note that the con...
by mwh
Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:28 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Can anyone recommend a good old sword-and-sandal movie?
Replies: 10
Views: 1027

Re: Can anyone recommend a good old sword-and-sandal movie?

Well there’s always Troy, if you don’t mind exposing your wife and your kids to infidelity and Brad Pitt and potentially spoiling Homer for them. It portrays violence, and deplorable attitudes, but doesn’t that go along with swords? A film mentioned here recently was A funny thing happened on the wa...