Search found 3102 matches

by mwh
Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:41 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: No Such Thing as a Stupid Question
Replies: 10
Views: 140

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: No Such Thing as a Stupid Question

OK I’ll play.

Ἀρτέμιδί σε ἐγώ γε, Διὸς κούρῃ μεγάλοιο,
εἶδός τε μέγεθός τε φυήν τ ̓ ἄγχιστα ἐΐσκω·
(6.151-2)

How does Odysseus know what Artemis looks like?


(As to τε μέγεθός, surely it’s better to say that the mu is doubled. An episilon can’t be long.)
by mwh
Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:14 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ὅτι + optative
Replies: 12
Views: 353

Re: ὅτι + optative

Double ditto.
by mwh
Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:00 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140
Replies: 29
Views: 723

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140

ἄυσαν and ἀυτή - it's important to note that between these two words there's a hard shift in focalisation from Athena watching/influencing Nausicaa and those with her to Odysseus' perspective at line 119. Really? ἄυσαν is narratorial, “objective,” and κουράων θῆλυς ἀυτή is what Odysseus hears. The ...
by mwh
Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:10 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140
Replies: 29
Views: 723

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 119-140

I'm not sure that ἀυτή means a battle-cry outside of Iliadic-type battle context. I'd read κουράων θῆλυς ἀυτή much less menacingly. Certainly the nymphs of the next two verses hook up with Artemis' nymphs in last week's extended simile, but that depicted a perfectly happy and playful scene (I may ha...
by mwh
Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:55 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 93-118
Replies: 26
Views: 1272

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 93-118

A few disconnected casual pensées on this passage, the first taking off from Sean’s Shakespeare with its reminder of the danger of hunting wild boars. 1. Wild boars (noch einmal). ‘Thou hadst been gone,’ quoth she, ‘sweet boy, ere this, But that thou told’st me thou wouldst hunt the boar. O! be advi...
by mwh
Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:40 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Prot., 327d attraction into opt
Replies: 5
Views: 235

Re: Prot., 327d attraction into opt

No that’s not it at all! That wouldn’t make sense. It’s a continuation of the relative clause, with a slight anacoluthon (since οἷς has been left behind). If it helps, you can understand οἲ before εἶεν; that would make it grammatical, but would be unidiomatic. The sense, as you'd have realized if yo...
by mwh
Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:39 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Prot 329b
Replies: 1
Views: 137

Re: Prot 329b

No, it’s the ordinary ει with optative, like εἰ δέοι in your 327d query, a regular if-clause (“if you’d just answer me this”). It’s as if πάντ᾽ αν ἔχοιμι had preceded rather than σμικροῦ τινος ἐνδεής εἰμι πάντ᾽ ἔχειν (“I’d have it all” rather than “I have it all but for one little thing”), so it’s s...
by mwh
Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:36 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Prot., 327d attraction into opt
Replies: 5
Views: 235

Re: Prot., 327d attraction into opt

Doubtless δέοι played a part in determining optative εἶεν, but we can’t simply say that εἶεν is attracted to the optative. Attracted from what? and how to account for it? From the indicative, presumably: ἐστὶν was used in the first part of the relative clause. But it’s important to note that the con...
by mwh
Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:28 pm
Forum: Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
Topic: Can anyone recommend a good old sword-and-sandal movie?
Replies: 7
Views: 548

Re: Can anyone recommend a good old sword-and-sandal movie?

Well there’s always Troy, if you don’t mind exposing your wife and your kids to infidelity and Brad Pitt and potentially spoiling Homer for them. It portrays violence, and deplorable attitudes, but doesn’t that go along with swords? A film mentioned here recently was A funny thing happened on the wa...
by mwh
Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:08 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Plat., Protag, 317e
Replies: 26
Views: 890

Re: Plat., Protag, 317e

ca. more usually c. short for circa, "approximately." Usually followed by estimate of number of letters lost (as would have been better here). And wouldn't 3sing. aor. opt. act. have acute on the penult?
by mwh
Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:11 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Plat., Protag, 317e
Replies: 26
Views: 890

Re: Plat., Protag, 317e

Here’s the letter Barry inopportunely mentioned (μνείαν ἐποήσατο), written around the middle of the 3rd cent. BCE. Satyra was a harpist in the employ of one of Ptolemy II’s chief ministers, by name of Apollonius; Zeno was his agent. His voluminous correspondence enlarges the corpus of early Hellenis...
by mwh
Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:59 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 93-118
Replies: 26
Views: 1272

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 93-118

Speaking from my massive ignorance of pig farming, I'd assume that pig litters would have both male and female young. I referenced Eumaeus' pigs in bk.14. They are referred to as συες, collectively referred to as female (τας 411), but the one that Eumaeus orders for sacrifice is male (ὑων τον αριστο...
by mwh
Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:30 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 93-118
Replies: 26
Views: 1272

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 93-118

I don’t have the LfgrE (I wish I did), but that male pigs (boars) were sometimes sacrificed is unsurprising (so were female pigs and piglets, of course, a lesser sacrifice), and doesn’t affect what I said about the Odyssey’s use of καπρος etc in combination with συς etc. If your “first reaction” was...
by mwh
Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:54 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 93-118
Replies: 26
Views: 1272

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 93-118

"wild boar": the Odyssey displays a well-developed and versatile formulaic system involving καπρος and καπριος and αγριος with συς/ὑς. Parry would have liked it (though while it has wide 'scope' it doesn't have quite total 'economy'?). καπρ(ι)ος is always a (wild) boar I think, male, destructive, an...
by mwh
Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:56 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Crit., 53a καὶ
Replies: 3
Views: 253

Re: Crit., 53a καὶ

νῦν δὲ δὴ οὐκ ἐμμενεῖς τοῖς ὡμολογημένοις; ἐὰν ἡμῖν γε πείθῃ, ὦ Σώκρατες: καὶ οὐ καταγέλαστός γε ἔσῃ ἐκ τῆς πόλεως ἐξελθών. You just need to follow what they’re saying. “Now then won’t you abide by our contract? [You will] if you listen to us ; and then you won’t make yourself a laughingstock by lea...
by mwh
Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:02 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Plat., Protag, 317e
Replies: 26
Views: 890

Re: Plat., Protag, 317e

π̣ερὶ ἡμ̣ῶ̣ν μνείαν ποίησαι. I’m sorry to have to point it out but this is not active but middle. The editor of the papyrus, having some competence in Greek, recognized that and accented accordingly.
by mwh
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:15 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Prot., 320a
Replies: 1
Views: 154

Re: Prot., 320a

You really must stop thinking in such terms. No verb is to be added, and no particular verb is to be understood. Imagine this piece of dialogue: “What shall we do this evening?” “If you like, we could listen to our favorite president.” Would you think “There must be an ellipsis here” and wonder what...
by mwh
Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:28 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Plat., Protag, 317e
Replies: 26
Views: 890

Re: Plat., Protag, 317e

But Randy he’s right. This is an absolutely typical use of ποιεῖσθαι. The active would be quite wrong. (How on earth would I know? By having some slight competence in ancient Greek. No more than that is needed.) So the answers to Constantinus’ two questions are Because it’s the appropriate form to u...
by mwh
Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:26 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Morwood, Oxford Grammar
Replies: 4
Views: 246

Re: Morwood, Oxford Grammar

The ὢν goes with στρατηγὸς οὔτε λοχαγὸς οὔτε στρατιώτης (predicates of ὢν), making a participial phrase. Lit. “who, being neither A B or C, followed along.” It can be read as concessive, “although he was neither …".
by mwh
Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:04 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 71-92
Replies: 37
Views: 1344

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 71-92

δμῶες and ἀμφίπολοι are quite different kettles of fish (quite apart from the gender difference), and to translate both of them as “slaves” would be badly distortive. — But (please!) enough of that. I suppose my remaining questions are: How certain is the attribution to ancient commentators - is thi...
by mwh
Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:56 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 71-92
Replies: 37
Views: 1344

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 71-92

Their status is one thing. How Homer represents them is quite another. My point is that he does not call them slaves (so a translator who does is misrepresenting Homer).
by mwh
Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:53 pm
Forum: Open Board
Topic: Stop and Frisk
Replies: 5
Views: 289

Re: Stop and Frisk

Great heading, Joel, and great posting. Nikolaev (Sasha to his friends and colleagues) has literary interests and has done trailblazing and challenging work on the Homeric dialect among other things. He’s worth following. (He’s currently at BU, but will no doubt end up at Harvard or UCLA.)
by mwh
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:39 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 71-92
Replies: 37
Views: 1344

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 71-92

Aetos wrote: This register, then would be the "apparatus comparandorum" Yes I guess you could call it that (or Conferenda, cf. “cf.”!). He also signals relationships (e.g. “hinc”) and contrasting interpretations (“aliter”—which means “differently,” Sean; you won’t get far with scholia without Latin—...
by mwh
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:26 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 71-92
Replies: 37
Views: 1344

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 71-92

Note the marginal notations in Pontani's edition, which are analytical, identifying (where possible) each scholium’s ultimate source. Ariston(icus), Hdn. (Herodian), Nican(or): three of the four ancient scholars who wrote works elucidating Aristarchus’ (3rd cent. BCE) textual choices etc. (The fourt...
by mwh
Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:24 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 71-92
Replies: 37
Views: 1344

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 71-92

Dindorf’s edition of the Odyssey scholia is notoriously bad. Filippomaria Pontani set about replacing it, and has now reached bk.6 (if not further, I’m not sure). There was a helpful review of vol.1 by Eleanor Dickey in BMCR (and another review in JHS). Her Anc.Gk.Scholarship book is very good. And ...
by mwh
Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:14 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 48-70
Replies: 44
Views: 2018

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 48-70

If Sean is trapped within his Jilly Cooper, just so is seneca trapped within his late-20th-century criticism. No way out. (Intertexuality and precision of critical language apart, I don't myself find Martindale that much different from Richards, only less insightful and sensitive.) But to go back a ...
by mwh
Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:30 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 48-70
Replies: 44
Views: 2018

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 48-70

Nagler: “All is traditional on the generative level, all original on the level of performance.” Thus he dissolves the conflict. "Dad, how about fitting me out a good fast wagon so that I can go down to the river and wash my fine clothes, which have gotten all dirty." (My translation, but think how f...
by mwh
Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:02 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 48-70
Replies: 44
Views: 2018

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 48-70

As you suggest, reading Parry would be only the beginning. It’s much more complex now. You could try various entries in the Homer Encyclopedia put together by Margalit Finkelberg (there are several beginning with “oral”, and one for “Parry”). Foley is (or was) a big player here. A book I found very ...
by mwh
Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:49 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 48-70
Replies: 44
Views: 2018

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 48-70

Sean’s chicken and egg point is well taken, but I don’t think seeking metrical effects is at all high on the poet’s agenda. To take Sean’s hypothetical pair: 1. αφαρ δ' αρ' εθαυμασ' ονειρον 2. αφαρ δ' αρα θαυμασ' ονειρον Avoidance of the first of these would be instinctive. It’s not as if the poet s...
by mwh
Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:00 am
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 48-70
Replies: 44
Views: 2018

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 48-70

Thanks Aetos. Bassett’s book (The Poetry of Homer) was reissued in 2003, reviewed hy Ruth Scodel in BMCR. One of her comments: “His vehement attack on the search for a third-foot caesura in every line is justified, but here his rejection of Parry limits his insight into the hexameter, since word-end...
by mwh
Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:53 pm
Forum: Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
Topic: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 48-70
Replies: 44
Views: 2018

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 48-70

Sorry, I haven’t been following properly. Ναυσικάαν ἐύπεπλον· ἄφαρ δ ̓ ἀπεθαύμασ ̓ ὄνειρον, First off, to rehearse what you all probably recognize, the verse has a 3rd-foot “feminine” caesura, just like its immediate neighbors (and also 51 and 52, as it happens). In Homer this is a bit more common t...
by mwh
Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:35 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: ἄλλη, Meno 88d
Replies: 1
Views: 188

Re: ἄλλη, Meno 88d

That’s an easier one. It’s a loose way of referring to the other actions or effects of the psyche previously discussed.
by mwh
Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:34 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: meno 87a
Replies: 19
Views: 904

Re: meno 87a

I still can’t make sense of this. But ἐλλείπειν, like παρατείναντα, is surely intransitive and won’t be referring to a person ( pace Buttmann?); the figure (or whatever it is) falls short of reaching (the line?); or something of the kind. But παρατείναντα is grammatically baffling, and I can’t help ...
by mwh
Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:32 pm
Forum: Open Board
Topic: Why is the Herodotus Histories Book1 called Clio? doh!
Replies: 3
Views: 289

Re: Why is the Herodotus Histories Book1 called Clio? doh!

But why Clio specifically for history? I’ll let others answer.
by mwh
Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:02 am
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: meno 87a
Replies: 19
Views: 904

Re: meno 87a

But τις is not there, and παρατείναντα would’t agree with it if it did. I presume applivaverit should be applicaverit, but I can’t reconcile this with the Greek, nor do I understand it. It appears to take παρατείναντα as masculine (and transitive, as the following τὸ παρατεταμένον suggests it will b...
by mwh
Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:01 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: Meno 85d
Replies: 1
Views: 185

Re: Meno 85d

How I hate these labels! οὐκοῦν εἰ μὲν ἀεὶ εἶχεν, ἀεὶ καὶ ἦν ἐπιστήμων presents no difficulty (“if he had it all along, then he was also ἐπιστήμων all along”), so I guess you’re referring to εἰ δὲ ἔλαβέν ποτε, οὐκ ἂν ἔν γε τῷ νῦν βίῳ εἰληφὼς εἴη, which means “while if at some point he had gotten it,...
by mwh
Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:55 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: meno 87a
Replies: 19
Views: 904

Re: meno 87a

I don’t see how it can be, but I don’t see how it could be masculine either. I just don’t understand it. I think I’d just about understand παρατεῖναν (intransitive), but this, no, or not with my current headache. But I’ve always had problems squaring a circle.

Does your commentary help?
by mwh
Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:16 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: -σθ- in 1st pl pres ind mp ending
Replies: 8
Views: 432

Re: -σθ- in 1st pl pres ind mp ending

Note that it’s used only under metrical necessity. It’s morphologically odd (though frequent) and I don’t know how it came into being, but I suspect contamination from -εσθ- in the infinitive.
by mwh
Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:13 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: meno 82 d
Replies: 6
Views: 353

Re: meno 82 d

Then I suggest you try to do things in less of a hurry.

No response needed.
by mwh
Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:27 pm
Forum: Learning Greek
Topic: meno 82 d
Replies: 6
Views: 353

Re: meno 82 d

No, that’s quite wrong. τις goes with πηλίκη (as its position indicates), not with ἡ γραμμὴ ἑκάστη. It needn’t be translated (and Lamb leaves it untranslated), though we could say “about how long”. Xerxes after the battle of Thermopylae asked how many more Lacedaemonians there were (Hdt. 7.234): νῦν...