double τ
-
- Textkit Neophyte
- Posts: 70
- Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:40 am
- Location: Paris, France
double τ
Hi guys!
before anything I would like to say thank you because you are really helping me in this learning adventure:
now, I have a question about pronunciation: I've seen that many times the double τ was changed in the modern greek for a double sigma,
θάλαττη /// θάλασση
γλώττα ... γλώσσα
just to mention some of them, but I would like to know what it the pronunciation on classic greek for this double consonant,
I tried to find out in this forum in previous threaths but I could not find anything, also in the books... nothing...
thank you very much in advance for your help
before anything I would like to say thank you because you are really helping me in this learning adventure:
now, I have a question about pronunciation: I've seen that many times the double τ was changed in the modern greek for a double sigma,
θάλαττη /// θάλασση
γλώττα ... γλώσσα
just to mention some of them, but I would like to know what it the pronunciation on classic greek for this double consonant,
I tried to find out in this forum in previous threaths but I could not find anything, also in the books... nothing...
thank you very much in advance for your help
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 3399
- Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
- Location: Madison, WI, USA
- Contact:
Re: double τ
This is a dialect difference. Homer and Herodotus would have used the double sigma, too. The double tau is characteristic of Attic. But Koine, upon which modern Greek is based, used the double sigma.Hammurabi wrote:now, I have a question about pronunciation: I've seen that many times the double τ was changed in the modern greek for a double sigma,
θάλαττη /// θάλασση
γλώττα ... γλώσσα
As for the pronunciation, probably as written. The variation may go back to something like the ch in "church", or perhaps some /ts/ variation, and there are even signs of this in some dialects.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
-
- Textkit Enthusiast
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:49 pm
-
- Textkit Enthusiast
- Posts: 563
- Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:34 am
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 3399
- Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
- Location: Madison, WI, USA
- Contact:
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 3399
- Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
- Location: Madison, WI, USA
- Contact:
Re: double τ
Um. That's misleading. "But Koine, from which modern Greek is descended" is better.annis wrote: But Koine, upon which modern Greek is based, used the double sigma.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 3399
- Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
- Location: Madison, WI, USA
- Contact:
ὀτοτοτοῖ τοτοῖ!ThomasGR wrote:The examples for Latin and Italian, I am afraid are the results of grammatical rules and the intervention of grammarians.
Thomas, is there any linguistic quirk you will not attribute to the mischief of perverted grammarians?
In the case of Italian you would be very much mistaken. Double consonants are distinctly pronounced. Nono and nonno are different words, with different meanings, differently pronounced.Because the pronunciation of 'octo' became 'oto', and to keep the historical records, you write it as 'otto', but I don't think one speaks any double /t/.
Yes. It is metrically guaranteed. Doubled consonants were pronounced doubly in ancient Greek.The same goes for 'ekklesia', it's an invetions of grammarians to remind people that it is actually coming from two words 'ex' and 'kalw'>'exkalw'>ekkalw'>'ekklese'>'ekklesia'. But before the grammarians, did they spoke it as double /k/?
Not that I'm aware of.Where people of the 5th century aware that some clusters /ts/ ot /tS/ are reduced to 'tt' or 'ss', or that any sound /j/ is missing in 'alla'?
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
-
- Textkit Enthusiast
- Posts: 563
- Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:34 am
Did not thalatta and glotta become doubled consonants from the loss of the /j/ in Greek? I don't believe that was the case with either gamma or ekklhsia though, nor was it with the Italian examples. But the premise is there - a loss of a consonant to a doubled consonant. octo = otto.
And of course it's pronounced doubly, in Italian, in Greek, even in English. If not two full consonants, you at leat do one consonant aspirated, no?
And of course it's pronounced doubly, in Italian, in Greek, even in English. If not two full consonants, you at leat do one consonant aspirated, no?
-
- Textkit Enthusiast
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:49 pm
I am convinced that the grammarians dictated the reasons for writing some consonants double without taking into consideration the real pronunciation. I am thinking of German words like "tag" (spoken "tak" or "ta/ch/" (/ch/ as in scottish Loch)), zug (=tsu/ch/), but they write it with g because in the plural form and other declensions its spoken as /g/, and we have "tage" (=tage) or "zuege" (=tsuege). Another example is "wald" (valt), "waelder" (velder). In the example for "wald" notice also the quasiumlaut "ae". I could say the same for Greek if there weren't some cases like "glotta" or "thalatta", were almost from beginning these words were written with double consonants. For modern speakers it's a tongue twister to speak /t/ twice without using a stop or aspiration in-between, but than the aspiration will be clearly auditive and will distort the euphonics of the word.
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 3399
- Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
- Location: Madison, WI, USA
- Contact:
That's exactly right for doubled /n/ and /m/, and is how other doubled stops work.ThomasGR wrote:Maybe it's due to my stubbornness, but I have great incapability to pronounce a double /t/ or /k/ without putting a (glottal?) stop in-between. Though I can imagine a double /n/, /m/ only as lasting longer than usually.
The doubled consonants are not rearticulated! Here, in fat alpaca the /t/ is single. In fat tom cat the /t/ is doubled, at least at a normal speaking pace.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
-
- Textkit Enthusiast
- Posts: 392
- Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:34 pm
- Location: Newer Mexico
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 3399
- Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
- Location: Madison, WI, USA
- Contact:
Greek already had ways to do that: ἀγγέλλω, ἀγγελῶ, ἤγγειλα.Bardo de Saldo wrote:Couldn't they be doubled just to show that the preceding vowel is long, just like English does (inversely) with words like mite and mitten?
That's a Homeric licence to get a difficult name into the verses, which later Greeks and grumpy Roman poets alike scolded him for.Isn't Achilles spelled with one or two lambdas just to suit the meter?
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 1889
- Joined: Sat May 31, 2003 2:28 am
- Location: Arthur Ontario Canada
Back in 2003annis wrote:
The doubled consonants are not rearticulated! Here, in fat alpaca the /t/ is single. In fat tom cat the /t/ is doubled, at least at a normal speaking pace.
viewtopic.php?t=635&highlight=trilled+lambda I asked a question concerning trilled Lambdas. Is this what that refers to?
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 3399
- Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
- Location: Madison, WI, USA
- Contact:
Bert, I must confess that to this day I have no idea what a "trilled" lambda would be or sound like. I suspect he's using the word in a sense I don't know.Bert wrote:I asked a question concerning trilled Lambdas. Is this what that refers to?
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
-
- Textkit Enthusiast
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:49 pm
I can understand how a 'trilled' /l/ sounds. /l/ is one of the consonants one can "sing", that's keep it sounding as long as one wishes, like /s/ or /m/. Something is not possible to do with /t/ or /g/ and other consonants. Sorry, but I tried to keep /t/ and /k/ sounding double and was not able to do it. Ancient Greeks must have had a fine ear to distinguish the duration of these consonants so as to keep them recorded correctly. I doubt that they were at such an early stage such great linguists and keen to record the sounds perfectly. Now I am thinking more if there was another sound they wanted to write, like a ‘harder’ or ‘louder’ /t/ than usual, where the plosive part is more forced than usual, but without resulting to an aspiration (like in theta) or to a voiced one like in delta. Just my thoughts.annis wrote: Bert, I must confess that to this day I have no idea what a "trilled" lambda would be or sound like. I suspect he's using the word in a sense I don't know.
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 3399
- Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
- Location: Madison, WI, USA
- Contact:
For those who speak languages with geminate consonants — the Italians, the Japanese — the distinction differentiates words. I doubt they regard it as subtle.ThomasGR wrote: I doubt that they were at such an early stage such great linguists and keen to record the sounds perfectly.
I'll see if I can find some sound files contrasting single from double consonants.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 3399
- Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
- Location: Madison, WI, USA
- Contact:
That's what the double consonants signify.ThomasGR wrote:I see it now, that could be a good explanation. Do we have any information that Ancient Greeks were aware of it and used therefore gemination?
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
-
- Textkit Enthusiast
- Posts: 408
- Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 4:04 pm
- Location: New York
I have a terrible time understanding this stuff without actually hearing it. But would the word "bookkeeper" be an example of a double k sound, as opposed to "book, keeper" with a pause? Or is it becoming a single k sound with an aspiration, like "book-heaper"?ThomasGR wrote:Sorry, but I tried to keep /t/ and /k/ sounding double and was not able to do it.
-
- Textkit Enthusiast
- Posts: 563
- Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:34 am
-
- Textkit Neophyte
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 2:44 am
The ancient Greek grammarians were perfectly aware of geminate consonants and their pronunciation--the already cited example of a double consonant creating a long/heavy syllable in metrical texts is discussed by, for instance, Dionyisius Thrax.
Two other matters briefly: ThomasGR talks about having to insert a glottal stop in geminate consonants. I doubt there's actually a glottal stop there, but there is a sort of pause of articulation, which is exactly what one does in careful articulation of geminate stops.
In terms of "trilled" lambda, I'm not familiar with the original discussion, but I would guess that someone was talking about the distinction between "light" and "dark" l, which are simply allophones in English (generally, in standard English light pre-vocalic, dark post-vocalis). Greek lambda was, as far as anyone knows, always light.
Two other matters briefly: ThomasGR talks about having to insert a glottal stop in geminate consonants. I doubt there's actually a glottal stop there, but there is a sort of pause of articulation, which is exactly what one does in careful articulation of geminate stops.
In terms of "trilled" lambda, I'm not familiar with the original discussion, but I would guess that someone was talking about the distinction between "light" and "dark" l, which are simply allophones in English (generally, in standard English light pre-vocalic, dark post-vocalis). Greek lambda was, as far as anyone knows, always light.
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 3399
- Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
- Location: Madison, WI, USA
- Contact:
Given the context, I doubt it.anthropostis wrote:In terms of "trilled" lambda, I'm not familiar with the original discussion, but I would guess that someone was talking about the distinction between "light" and "dark" l,
Nope. Or not in every dialect, at least. In some, lambda in some positions became υ, which is a more usual development of the dark /l/.which are simply allophones in English (generally, in standard English light pre-vocalic, dark post-vocalis). Greek lambda was, as far as anyone knows, always light.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
-
- Textkit Neophyte
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 2:44 am
Well, that teaches me to jump into conversations of which I don't know the original context!
On your second matter, interesting. Which dialects and where? I don't doubt the outcome of dark l in some dialects, but I'm not familiar with them.
More randomly: how does one quote a previous post on these forums?[/i]
On your second matter, interesting. Which dialects and where? I don't doubt the outcome of dark l in some dialects, but I'm not familiar with them.
More randomly: how does one quote a previous post on these forums?[/i]
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 3399
- Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
- Location: Madison, WI, USA
- Contact:
From Palmer's The Greek Language, p.209, "A velar coloring before a consonant is suggested by the occasional substitution of υ in Cretan (ἀδευπιαί for ἀδελφιαί)."anthropostis wrote:On your second matter, interesting. Which dialects and where? I don't doubt the outcome of dark l in some dialects, but I'm not familiar with them.
At the upper right of each post is a "quote" button which will drop you into a reply form with the entire thing in quote tags.More randomly: how does one quote a previous post on these forums?
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
-
- Textkit Neophyte
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 2:44 am
From Palmer's The Greek Language, p.209, "A velar coloring before a
Forgive me for forgetting the inscriptional evidence, though one should point out that this is limited to Cretan, and while the Latin grammarians are, for example, reasonably clear on the two different outcomes of /l/, the Greek grammarians do not so distinguish, and there seems to be no reason to assume a "velar coloring" in other dialects based on their evidence or the outcome of lambda in modern Greek.consonant is suggested by the occasional substitution of υ in Cretan (ἀδευπιαί for ἀδελφιαί)."
Many thanks! Amazing how one misses the obvious.At the upper right of each post is a "quote" button which will drop you into a reply form with the entire thing in quote tags.
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 3399
- Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:55 pm
- Location: Madison, WI, USA
- Contact:
As I said, the dark /l/ appeared in some dialects at least. Given the examples of other languages where some groups drop /l/ to a glide, while others do not, I'm not prepared to dismiss out of hand the idea that the dark /l/ might have been more widely used. I'm thinking of Old Occitan at the moment, proencal vs. proencau.anthropostis wrote:Forgive me for forgetting the inscriptional evidence, though one should point out that this is limited to Cretan, and while the Latin grammarians are, for example, reasonably clear on the two different outcomes of /l/, the Greek grammarians do not so distinguish, and there seems to be no reason to assume a "velar coloring" in other dialects based on their evidence or the outcome of lambda in modern Greek
In my own pronunciation, I just stick with a clear /l/, though I have to fight the urge to a dark /l/ when the lambda is doubled for some reason. I blame my study of Arabic for that.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
-
- Textkit Neophyte
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 2:44 am
Well, put in that way, I'm not prepared to dismiss it either. But I don't think that it's much to worry about in Greek.annis wrote:As I said, the dark /l/ appeared in some dialects at least. Given the examples of other languages where some groups drop /l/ to a glide, while others do not, I'm not prepared to dismiss out of hand the idea that the dark /l/ might have been more widely used.
That's a pretty cool reason to be able to blame that on. In any case, I don't think the precise quality of pronunciation of the lambda is really a problem that ranks very high on the list of issues facing modern learners of ancient Greek.In my own pronunciation, I just stick with a clear /l/, though I have to fight the urge to a dark /l/ when the lambda is doubled for some reason. I blame my study of Arabic for that.
-
- Textkit Enthusiast
- Posts: 408
- Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 4:04 pm
- Location: New York
-
- Textkit Enthusiast
- Posts: 563
- Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:34 am
-
- Textkit Neophyte
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:07 am
- Location: Somerville, MA (Boston Area)
Very enjoyable discussion, and (of course) William Annis explained everything beautifully.
ThomasGR is perfectly correct in that there is a difference between resonants (including nasals and liquids) which are "continuant" and (as he says) can be "sung" for as long as you want, and a stop (or plosive) which cannot be prolongued.
A doubled stop is not "prolongued". It is simply that there are two adjacent stops: one syllable ENDS in a stop (instead of being open), and the next syllable begins in what happens to be the same stop. And in languages such as Japanese and Italian it is an extremely noticeable and important distinction.
The example of "bookkeper" vs. "boo-keeper" illustrates it perfectly. I'm afraid I don't know enough German to think of similar examples that could help ThomasGR understand.
The only other thing I would add to the discussion of double sigma vs. double tau is this: there were some dialects where this sound was written with a special consonant which has (I believe) no Unicode code-point. It looked like a capital T with fairly large serifs on the crossbar. I'll try to find a picture of one and upload it. Some scholars have speculated that this letter (which may have descended from the archaic Greek letter San) was used to write a sound such as the "ch" in "church".
Some scholars have also speculated that in fact the -ss- or -tt- spelling may have been an imperfect attempt to represent this, or a similar sound (e.g., "ch" or the "sh" in "ship"), and that even in Attic Greek, it may not have been pronounced as a double tau.
If so, however, then it is surprising that none of the scholars at the time mentioned the sound, so it is probable that by the classical period at least, -tt- and -ss- were pronounced as written.
That's just my two and a half cents.
ThomasGR is perfectly correct in that there is a difference between resonants (including nasals and liquids) which are "continuant" and (as he says) can be "sung" for as long as you want, and a stop (or plosive) which cannot be prolongued.
A doubled stop is not "prolongued". It is simply that there are two adjacent stops: one syllable ENDS in a stop (instead of being open), and the next syllable begins in what happens to be the same stop. And in languages such as Japanese and Italian it is an extremely noticeable and important distinction.
The example of "bookkeper" vs. "boo-keeper" illustrates it perfectly. I'm afraid I don't know enough German to think of similar examples that could help ThomasGR understand.
The only other thing I would add to the discussion of double sigma vs. double tau is this: there were some dialects where this sound was written with a special consonant which has (I believe) no Unicode code-point. It looked like a capital T with fairly large serifs on the crossbar. I'll try to find a picture of one and upload it. Some scholars have speculated that this letter (which may have descended from the archaic Greek letter San) was used to write a sound such as the "ch" in "church".
Some scholars have also speculated that in fact the -ss- or -tt- spelling may have been an imperfect attempt to represent this, or a similar sound (e.g., "ch" or the "sh" in "ship"), and that even in Attic Greek, it may not have been pronounced as a double tau.
If so, however, then it is surprising that none of the scholars at the time mentioned the sound, so it is probable that by the classical period at least, -tt- and -ss- were pronounced as written.
That's just my two and a half cents.