ἡμεῖς used as singular?

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Tugodum
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ἡμεῖς used as singular?

Post by Tugodum »

Plato, Resp. 328 c7-d1: εἰ μὲν γὰρ ἐγὼ ἔτι ἐν δυνάμει ἦ τοῦ ῥᾳδίως πορεύεσθαι πρὸς τὸ ἄστυ, οὐδὲν ἂν σὲ ἔδει δεῦρο ἰέναι, ἀλλ᾽ ἡμεῖς ἂν παρὰ σὲ ᾖμεν·
The context seems to suggest that by ἡμεῖς Cephalus here, again, refers to himself alone. But is such use of ἡμεῖς attested elsewhere? I failed to find any mention of it in Smyth or LSJ. Thanks in advance.

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seneca2008
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Re: ἡμεῖς used as singular?

Post by seneca2008 »

Before the quoted sentence we have “Ὦ Σώκρατες, οὐδὲ θαμίζεις ἡμῖν καταβαίνων εἰς τὸν Πειραιᾶ. χρῆν μέντοι.” So surely “ἡμεῖς” is simply picking up “ἡμῖν”? Cephalus is with a number of other people including his son Polemarchus.

Although I don’t think we have a plural for singular here in Tragedy it is very common.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: ἡμεῖς used as singular?

Post by Tugodum »

Sure, Cephalus' living with his son sufficiently explains ἡμῖν in the sentence that you cited. But it is only himself--not his son (nor anyone else of those present, who are all "young people")--that Cephalus claims to be unable, because of his age, anymore to easily visit Socrates in Athens.
Does a plural for singular in Tragedy add any particular semantic force or connotation to the pronoun thus used?

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Re: ἡμεῖς used as singular?

Post by jeidsath »

Your objection has nothing to do with the Greek. Here's the same in German, from Kleuker. There's nothing unnatural about how this is expressed, in German, Greek, or English. "du kommst ja gar selten zu uns,...ich noch so viel Kräfte hätte...sondern wir wollten zu dir gehen...". He's visiting them, but Kephalus is not so strong, otherwise they'd visit him.

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Re: ἡμεῖς used as singular?

Post by Tugodum »

Joel, I'm not sure I got you right. "otherwise they'd visit him"--Do you mean that "they" here refers to Cephalus alone? In some languages it is natural to use plural for the 2nd person singular (in German it is the 3rd person plural, in Russian and English--2n person) yet in Ancient Greek, according to Smyth, this is not natural (although I did encounter examples of such plural of politeness in Byzantine Greek). Are you saying that as regards the 1st person pronouns it is universally natural?

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Re: ἡμεῖς used as singular?

Post by Hylander »

Here it is in Russian:

Чуть только Кефал меня увидел, он приветствовал меня такими словами:

– Ты, Сократ, не частый гость у нас в Пирее. Это напрасно. Будь я еще в силах с прежней легкостью выбираться в город, тебе совсем не понадобилось бы ходить сюда – мы бы сами посещали тебя там; но теперь ты должен почаще бывать здесь: уверяю тебя, что, насколько во мне угасли всякие удовольствия, связанные с телом, настолько же возросла потребность в беседах и удовольствии от них. Не уклоняйся же от общения с этими молодыми людьми и посещай нас, мы ведь с тобой друзья и близкие знакомые.

http://psylib.ukrweb.net/books/plato01/26gos01.htm
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Re: ἡμεῖς used as singular?

Post by Tugodum »

Thank you, Hylander. I do read Russian, and did read this translation. But in Russian "мы" in such context can easily refer to a single person. My question is whether such use of ἡμεῖς is attested in Greek prose.

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seneca2008
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Re: ἡμεῖς used as singular?

Post by seneca2008 »

I think plural for singular sometimes is used for metrical reasons sometimes it is simply poetic sometimes it might be aggrandising - the “royal we”. In the current passage I think it is simply “you don’t visit us in Piraeus. I don’t have the strength to go to Athens so you have to come to us here. “ it seems a perfectly straightforward use to me. If Cephalus had said you don’t visit me instead of us maybe there would be something to investigate.

Alternatively as Cephalus is sitting on a cushion on a chair wearing a wreath with everyone gathered around perhaps there is some kind of parody of a self-aggrandising “monarch”.

There is an old book The Poetic Plural of Greek Tragedy in the Light of Homeric Usage by Horace Jones. I am sure there is something much more up to date.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: ἡμεῖς used as singular?

Post by Tugodum »

"as Cephalus is sitting on a cushion on a chair wearing a wreath with everyone gathered around perhaps there is some kind of parody of a self-aggrandising “monarch”"--This is exactly what I had in mind. I.e., the "royal "we"".
"In the current passage I think it is simply “you don’t visit us in Piraeus. I don’t have the strength to go to Athens so you have to come to us here.“--Right. Except that you've left out, in this paraphrase, the one part that is relevant: "I don’t have the strength to go to Athens, otherwise I/we [?] would be visiting you"

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Re: ἡμεῖς used as singular?

Post by jeidsath »

It's obviously not the royal we, and if Seneca and Tugodum would like to examine the sentence carefully for a few moments they'll see what prevents that interpretation.

Hylander, I thought that Tugodum's native language was German? He'll have to correct us. Otherwise I would have grabbed the Russian. I've been reading Dostoevsky lately, and taught myself the alphabet and some grammar the other day. It's fascinatingly similar to Greek in ways. You're probably aware of the есмь/sum/εἰμί similarities, but I wasn't:

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“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: ἡμεῖς used as singular?

Post by Tugodum »

Joel, my native language is Russian. Although I know some German too.
I did examine the sentence carefully but you prophesy (that I'll see...) has not been fulfilled.

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Re: ἡμεῖς used as singular?

Post by jeidsath »

I could imagine someone referring to himself as "we" in an affected way. But how does "we" and "I" in the same sentence make sense here?

He uses "we" for the visit, because if he were strong enough, he would visit in a group together with everybody else. If he had said "I", it would imply that if he were strong enough, he would go to visit alone. Which is not what he's saying.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: ἡμεῖς used as singular?

Post by seneca2008 »

Except that you've left out, in this paraphrase, the one part that is relevant: "I don’t have the strength to go to Athens, otherwise I/we [?] would be visiting you"
Well I don’t really see a difficulty here. I am not advocating for the royal we, I just thought it’s a not unreasonable interpretation here.

The loeb (Plato. Republic, Volume I: Books 1-5. Edited and translated by Christopher Emlyn-Jones, William Preddy. Loeb Classical Library 237. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 2013.)has
As soon as he saw me Cephalus welcomed me and said: “You don’t often come down to see us in the Piraeus, Socrates.8 Yet you ought to. For if I were still strong enough to make the journey up to town easily, you wouldn’t have to come here; we would come to you instead.
surely Greek is such a flexible language that such switching shouldn’t come as a surprise? But I think on balance that the “us” is Cephalus his son and friends.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: ἡμεῖς used as singular?

Post by Tugodum »

Not that the switch "surprised" me. I just wanted to double check which of the two meanings is (more) plausible. Thanks to all for your help.

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