Πλάτων Απ. 36β

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Constantinus Philo
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Πλάτων Απ. 36β

Post by Constantinus Philo »

Τι άξιος ειμι παθειν ο τι μαθων εν τω βιω ουχ ησυχιαν ηγον. Is it literally a relative clause: what do I deserve to suffer, having known which, I did not have rest in my life. Or does it mean: what do I deserve to suffer because learning I didn't have rest.. as in the Latin translation quod sciens non quievi in vita.. The French dictionary of Bailly simply states that this 'idiotisme' , namely ο τι μαθων is to be translated as 'pour', that is, for or because. The translation in LS eighth edition as wherefore does not fit the context. In its ninth edition LS translates it as because.
PS Friedrich Ast's Latin translation from which I quoted is old fashioned and ridiculous, I couldn't help laughing while reading his supposedly Latin vernacula.
Semper Fidelis

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jeidsath
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Re: Πλάτων Απ. 36β

Post by jeidsath »

From Burnet, agreeing with Bailly, which agrees with the LSJ (where you could see μανθάνω A.V.)
ὅτι μαθών is a strange expression which occurs only four times in classical Greek, and appears to mean 'because' with an added sense of disapprobation or expostulation (propterea quod...adiuncto tamen aliquo, qui latet in participio μαθών, temeritatis et inconsiderantiae significatu, Heindorf ad Euthyd. 283e). Cf. Eupolis fr. 357 ὅτι μαθόντες τοὺς ξένους μὲν λέγετε ποιητὰς σοφούς. The other instances are in Plato. Cf. Euthyd. 283 e 3 εἶπον ἂν "Σοὶ εἰς κεφαλήν", ὅτι μαθών μου...καταψεύδῃ, ib. 299 a I πολὺ...δικαιότερον τὸν ὑμέτερον πατέρ᾽ ἂν τύπτοιμι, ὅτι μαθὼν σοφοὺς ὑεῖς οὕτως ἔφυσεν, Prot. 353 d 5 ὅμως δ᾽ ἂν κακὰ ἦν, ὅτι μαθόντα χαίρειν ποιεῖ καὶ ὁπῃοῦν. The last example is specially remarkable, since it follows a neuter subject. The phrase is clearly colloquial and cannot be separated from τί μαθών; which must not be emended with Cobet into τί παθών; (Starkie on Ar. Wasps 251), but no really satisfactory explanation of it has ever been given. We can only say that, since τί μαθών; had come to be felt as an indignant or reproachful 'Why?', ὅτι μαθών came to be felt as an indignant or reproachful 'because'.
Helm also directs the reader to Smyth 2064a and Goodwin 839b.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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jeidsath
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Re: Πλάτων Απ. 36β

Post by jeidsath »

I feel like there is a sense of "learn by repetition" or "rote learning" that is sometimes present in μανθάνω that might make sense of these examples.

X. Symp 3.5 Ὁ πατὴρ ὁ ἐπιμελούμενος ὅπως ἀνὴρ ἀγαθὸς γενοίμην ἠνάγκασέ με πάντα τὰ Ὁμήρου ἔπη μαθεῖν· καὶ νῦν δυναίμην ἂν Ἰλιάδα ὅλην καὶ Ὀδύσσειαν ἀπὸ στόματος εἰπεῖν.

In all of the following, a sense of "by rote" or "going by rote" would be reasonable. It would also heighten the humor of Euthyd. 299a (which the Loeb nicely catches with the not-so-literal "for being so ill-advised").

Eupolis 392:
ὅ τι μαθόντες τοὺς ξένους μὲν λέγετε ποιητὰς σοφούς,
ἢν δέ τις τῶν ἐνθάδ᾿ αὐτοῦ μηδὲ ἓν χεῖρον φρονῶν
ἐπιτιθῆται τῇ ποιήσει, πάνυ δοκεῖ κακῶς φρονεῖν,
μαίνεταί τε καὶ παραρρεῖ τῶν φρενῶν τῷ σῷ λόγῳ.
Loeb: "How come you consider foreign poets good, but if someone from around here applies himself to poetry, with not a bad idea, he really seems to have got it all wrong, he’s crazy and completely off his head, in your opinion?"

Euthyd. 283e3 Ὦ ξένε Θούριε, εἰ μὴ ἀγροικότερον, ἔφη, ἦν εἰπεῖν, εἶπον ἄν, σοὶ εἰς κεφαλήν, ὅ τι μαθών μου καὶ τῶν ἄλλων καταψεύδει τοιοῦτο πρᾶγμα
Loeb: "Stranger of Thurii, were it not rather a rude thing to say, I should tell you, ill betide your design of speaking so falsely of me and my friends as to make out..."

Euthyd. 299a Πολὺ μέντοι, ἔφη, δικαιότερον τὸν ὑμέτερον πατέρα τύπτοιμι, ὅ τι μαθὼν σοφοὺς υἱεῖς οὕτως ἔφυσεν.
Loeb: "There would be much more justice, though, he replied, in my beating yours, for being so ill-advised as to beget clever sons like you."

Prot. 353d5 χαίρειν δὲ μόνον ποιεῖ, ὅμως δ᾿ ἂν κακὰ ἦν, ὅτι μαθόντα χαίρειν ποιεῖ καὶ ὁπῃοῦν;
Loeb: "and cause us only enjoyment, would they still be evil just because, forsooth, they cause enjoyment in some way or other?"

Apol 36b τί ἄξιός εἰμι παθεῖν ἢ ἀποτεῖσαι, ὅτι μαθὼν ἐν τῷ βίῳ οὐχ ἡσυχίαν ἦγον, ἀλλ’ ἀμελήσας ὧνπερ οἱ πολλοί
Loeb: "What do I deserve to have done to me, or pay? Just because I didn’t lead a quiet life, but showed no interest in what other people do: ..."
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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