A definite article to represent "One"?

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Lukas
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A definite article to represent "One"?

Post by Lukas »

With number 9, I am supposed to write,
"One must always deliberate exceedingly wisely on behalf of the citizens."
The answer book has:

Image

Should there be a definite article at the beginning of the sentence to represent, "One?"
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ἑκηβόλος
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Re: A definite article to represent "One"?

Post by ἑκηβόλος »

The definite article is translated as "one" when it is used with a participle, as in ὁ τρέχων "the one who is running". It's fuction is to single out (identifies) an individual based on what they are doing.

The English "one must", isn't actually talking about anybody in particular. It is a formal way of saying, " you" as in "The expressway is convenient, but you have to pay a toll to use it". In that case there is no particular person in mind. Another way to say that is by using "it" as the pseudo-subject in an impersonal construction, as in "It is necessary to pay a toll if you want to use the expressway. "

In the χρή impersonal construction that the textbook wants you to use, if you wanted to make clear whom the compulsion was placed upon, those persons would be spelled out by adding them to the Greek sentence in the d̷a̷t̷i̷v̷e̷ accusative. Without specifying anybody in particular, χρή applies to everybody. in English, "everybody" is expressed by "one", "you" or "it".

Edit: "dative" corrected to "accusative" as per Constantinus' post below.
Last edited by ἑκηβόλος on Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: A definite article to represent "One"?

Post by Constantinus Philo »

Χρή takes accusativus with infinitive not dativus
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Re: A definite article to represent "One"?

Post by jeidsath »

ἀεὶ χρὴ μάλα σοφῶς βουλεύεσθαι ὑπὲρ τῶν πολιτῶν.

@Constantinus: There is no dative in this sentence.

@Lukas: χρὴ βουλεύεσθαι means "one must deliberate". "χρὴ <infinitive X>" means "one must <do X>". Nothing is needed to represent "one".
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: A definite article to represent "One"?

Post by Callisper »

A definite article is never used for the kind of general person to whom Eng "one" refers. Greek's indefinite pronoun would be a likelier candidate for this semantic category. (But here with the impersonal xrh/ no complement is appropriate.)
jeidsath wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:35 am @Constantinus: There is no dative in this sentence.
He was responding, with customary laconicism, to ἑκηβόλος.

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Re: A definite article to represent "One"?

Post by ἑκηβόλος »

Constantinus Philo wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:42 am Χρή takes accusativus with infinitive not dativus
Callisper wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:54 am
jeidsath wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:35 am @Constantinus: There is no dative in this sentence.
He was responding, with customary laconicism, to ἑκηβόλος.
Thanks. I'll correct that in the post.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: A definite article to represent "One"?

Post by RandyGibbons »

Hi Lucas.

In these exercises, you are translating from English to Greek. To one of your earlier posts, I urged you to think about the English you're being asked to translate. Michael/mwh objected to that, for reasons I understand. But all I meant was: You're being asked to render something utilizing something you've been taught in the textbook. Ask yourself, what Greek that I've been taught so far am I probably being asked to use here - in this case, χρή.

Remember, you're not studying Greek composition here. You're a long ways away from that. Do your best with the exercise, but, to Michael's point, focus on the Greek; otherwise, you'll be unintentionally and unconsciously slipping into the fatal - I do mean fatal - habit of translating instead of reading the Greek. My two cents.

Randy

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Re: A definite article to represent "One"?

Post by Lukas »

RandyGibbons wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:26 pm Hi Lucas.

. . . Do your best with the exercise, but, to Michael's point, focus on the Greek; otherwise, you'll be unintentionally and unconsciously slipping into the fatal - I do mean fatal - habit of translating instead of reading the Greek. My two cents.

Randy
I am not sure I understand what you mean. :?
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Re: A definite article to represent "One"?

Post by RandyGibbons »

The goal in learning Greek (or any other language) is to think in that language, to be able to operate exclusively in that language (read, speak, or write - mostly for Greek that will be read), to turn off English in your brain and turn on Greek, as it were. But what sometimes happens is that the student, when reading a Greek sentence, is not processing it as Greek but translating it as she goes into English (as if the author had not written in Greek, but translated English into Greek, and your job is to reverse engineer it). Not surprising, since if you're taking Greek in a classroom, translating into English is mostly what you're asked to do (in contrast to studying a modern language, where you're mostly asked to speak in that language). Unchecked, that can become the permanent way in which you read Greek, which is what I mean by "fatal". (In any case, this is usually remedied if you have the opportunity in life to read lots and lots of Greek.)

There are lots of strongly held views, including among Textkitters, about the positive or negative role of translation in learning Greek (or other languages). To others: I'm definitely not trying to start the debate here :). Mastronarde is following the tried (and I guess true) method of using Greek-to-English and English-to-Greek exercises to reinforce each chapter's lessons. That's the way the great majority of us, including myself, learned Greek. All I'm recommending, Lucas, is not to sweat the translation too much. As I'm sure you know, languages don't map 1:1 with each other. Focus on χρή, not "one must"!

But if I've confused you rather than helped you, which I fear is the case, I apologize :( .

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Re: A definite article to represent "One"?

Post by Lukas »

Χα΄ριν ε῎χειν

Now I understand what you mean.
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