αὐτίκα v. ἤδη

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Lukas
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αὐτίκα v. ἤδη

Post by Lukas »

χαιρετε'!

I have my first list of adverbs from Unit 12 of Dr. Mastronarde's textbook.

αὐτίκα = at once, immediately

ἤδη = already; immediately; actually now

When it comes to the meaning of immediately, do you see one or the other more often or both?
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Re: αὐτίκα v. ἤδη

Post by bedwere »

Lukas, I edited your post to spell the words correctly. Why don't you use http://www.typegreek.com/ ? You type Latin characters and Greek pops up. The alphabet key (Beta Code) is provided.

As for your question, I couldn't say. Let's see if someone else chimes in with an answer.

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Re: αὐτίκα v. ἤδη

Post by Callisper »

The words do not mean the same thing. If you are ready, check out LSJ. If not, take my word for it that ἤδη rarely means "immediately" (in the sense of "right away") in Attic prose. So for your Eng-Greek translations going on at the moment, more-or-less anytime you see "immediately" you should be thinking αὐτίκα. "already" is the most common meaning of ἤδη and I wouldn't bother learning more till you are ready to read the LSJ article (and also check through the digitized Smyth for mentions of ἤδη: some interesting stuff in there to help you understand the semantic range and precise force of the word better, after reading LSJ).

In so far as there was semantic overlap, in Homer and thereafter in poetry, I feel like ἤδη is perhaps something closer to Latin ilico and αὐτίκα perhaps to statim. Maybe I could be corrected on this point by someone who knows better.

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Re: αὐτίκα v. ἤδη

Post by jeidsath »

I’ve thought of that usage as something like English, “get it done already” meaning “get it done now.” I could be wrong.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: αὐτίκα v. ἤδη

Post by Lukas »

jeidsath wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:17 am I’ve thought of that usage as something like English, “get it done already” meaning “get it done now.” I could be wrong.
ἤδη?
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Re: αὐτίκα v. ἤδη

Post by Lukas »

bedwere wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:01 am Lukas, I edited your post to spell the words correctly. Why don't you use http://www.typegreek.com/ ? You type Latin characters and Greek pops up. The alphabet key (Beta Code) is provided.
Χα΄ριν ε῎χειν!

I bookmarked the website and downloaded GreekKeys2015 last night. Ι get more space then I want when typing accents with Greekkeys2015. I hope posters do not mind the spaces.
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Re: αὐτίκα v. ἤδη

Post by RandyGibbons »

Ι get more space then I want when typing accents with Greekkeys2015
Purely out of curiosity, are you referring to space between letters? between the letter and the diacritic above it?

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Re: αὐτίκα v. ἤδη

Post by Lukas »

Between the letters and the accents, just like I typed thank you in Greek.
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Re: αὐτίκα v. ἤδη

Post by jeidsath »

Are you typing vowel and then the accent, or the accent and then the vowel? Switching the order should fix the problem.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: αὐτίκα v. ἤδη

Post by Lukas »

If I type accent then vowel, I come up with this: Χ΄αριν ᾿΄εχειν

If I type vowel and then accent, I come up with this Χα΄ριν ε᾿΄χειν
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Re: αὐτίκα v. ἤδη

Post by bedwere »

Do not type accents directly but slash, backslash, equal signs (for accents), parentheses (for breathing), | for subscript iota.

Xa/rin --->Χάριν
a)/ --> ἄ
a)= --> ἆ
a| --> ᾳ

Do read carefully The Alphabet Key

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Re: αὐτίκα v. ἤδη

Post by Lukas »

bedwere wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:21 pm Do not type accents directly but slash, backslash, equal signs (for accents), parentheses (for breathing), | for subscript iota.

Xa/rin --->Χάριν
a)/ --> ἄ
a)= --> ἆ
a| --> ᾳ

Do read carefully The Alphabet Key
That works for type Greek but not the Greekkeys2015 I am trying to use.
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Re: αὐτίκα v. ἤδη

Post by RandyGibbons »

Re GreekKeys. You say "if I type accent". Which key(s) do you mean by that? Maybe you're not using the deadkeys (the Function keys). For example, having switched to GreekKeys,

type χ
type F1 (this is a "deadkey", you won't see anything displayed)
type α
type ρ
result: χάρ

type F6 (this is a "deadkey", you won't see anything displayed)
type ε
type χ
result: ἔχ

You'll find this in your documentation. Assuming GreekKeys2015 is installed correctly: Look on your hard drive for a folder 'GreekKeys2015' (on my system it's under 'OS (C:)'). Drill down to 'GK2015 Documentation'\'GK2015 Keyboard Charts Windows'. Open the chart (pdf file) for US.

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Re: αὐτίκα v. ἤδη

Post by Lukas »

I am using Microsoft Word. I tried using F1 and the help screen came up instead of allowing me to type a letter with an accent. /shrug

I think I will use Greekkeys2015 and then maybe the typrgreek web page to cut out the spaces, or maybe I will just use the web page.
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Re: αὐτίκα v. ἤδη

Post by RandyGibbons »

Sorry, my mistake. The numeric keys are the deadkeys, not the Function Keys. Substitute 1 for F1 and 6 for F6 in what I told you. Most of all, look at the documentation for yourself.

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Re: αὐτίκα v. ἤδη

Post by ἑκηβόλος »

Lukas wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:44 pm αὐτίκα = at once, immediately

ἤδη = already; immediately; actually now

When it comes to the meaning of immediately, do you see one or the other more often or both?
Choosing a common word is not a bad strategy, but you could think about difference in meaning. They are both temporal adverbs, but the designation temporal adverb is a bit general.

Immediately - in the shortest possible time slot (αὐτίκα an adverb of duration - within or after the shortest possible space of time). Do it immediately (while you can, don't take up time, etc.).
Immediately - without leaving it till a later moment in time (ἤδη an adverb of Aktionsart - extending or contracting the context of an action to include or exclude other actions). Do it immediately (before something else happens).
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: αὐτίκα v. ἤδη

Post by RandyGibbons »

Hi Lukas. As a follow up to your post: I happened to be reading the following sentence this morning:

ἡ δὲ ἰητρικὴ νῦν τε καὶ αὐτίκα οὐ τὸ αὐτὸ ποιεῖ ...

This is from a medical work called "On places in man" from a group of medical writings called the "Hippocratic Corpus". These are written in the Ionic dialog, and some scholars date "On places in man" to around 450 BCE, which would make it the earliest extant piece of Greek prose. My commentator/translator (Elizabeth Craik) translates νῦν τε καὶ αὐτίκα as "now and at other times", noting that this is an unusual use of αὐτίκα. In fact, a few sentences later in the same work, there is the sentence

ἑκατέρου δ’ ἐστὶ φάρμακον τὰ ὑπεναντία τῷ ὑπεναντίῳ· αὐτίκα ὅταν φλεγμαίνῃ χλωρὸς ἐών, ...

which Craik translates as "But in each case [previously described] a drug acts as opposite to opposite. For example, when a patient who is pale becomes phlegmatic ...", where in context αὐτίκα is best translated as "for example". (Craik says this shade of meaning for αὐτίκα is common in Plato; I'd have to let others comment on that.)

But, in support of the more commonly asserted synonymity of αὐτίκα and ἤδη that you're learning in Mastronarde, indeed Erotian, the 1st century CE glossator on Hippocrates (a glossator plucks out words from ancient writers and comments on them), quoting earlier glossators from the Hellenistic era, says:

αὐτίκα· Βακχεῖος ἐν α’ φησὶν ἤδη, Ἐπικλῆς δ’ εὐθέως.

I know, Lukas, the Greek here is beyond you right now, but my goal here is to complicate things for you :lol: . Remember that ancient Greek spanned a millennium's worth of multiple dialects, literary genres and styles, so be prepared: Words take on different meanings or shades of meaning accordingly!

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Re: αὐτίκα v. ἤδη

Post by Lukas »

Very interesting.
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Re: αὐτίκα v. ἤδη

Post by Constantinus Philo »

Those translators sometimes follow nothing but their fantasies.
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Re: αὐτίκα v. ἤδη

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

RandyGibbons wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:12 pm
ἑκατέρου δ’ ἐστὶ φάρμακον τὰ ὑπεναντία τῷ ὑπεναντίῳ· αὐτίκα ὅταν φλεγμαίνῃ χλωρὸς ἐών, ...

which Craik translates as "But in each case [previously described] a drug acts as opposite to opposite. For example, when a patient who is pale becomes phlegmatic ...", where in context αὐτίκα is best translated as "for example". (Craik says this shade of meaning for αὐτίκα is common in Plato; I'd have to let others comment on that.)
II. for example, to begin with, Hp.Epid.1.25, Acut.16; αὐ. γὰρ ἄρχει διὰ τίνʼ ὁ Ζεύς; Ar.Pl.130, cf. Av.166,574, Pl.Prt.359e, R.340d, Dialex.2.2, al.; αὐ. δὴ μάλα for example now, D.25.29; at any rate, Plu.2.1137d.

Liddell, H. G., Scott, R., Jones, H. S., & McKenzie, R. (1996). A Greek-English lexicon (p. 279). Oxford: Clarendon Press.
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