Phaed 80c
- Constantinus Philo
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 1403
- Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:04 pm
Phaed 80c
It looks like a dependent exclamation, does it not: συμπεσὸν γὰρ τὸ σῶμα καὶ ταριχευθέν, ὥσπερ οἱ ἐν Αἰγύπτῳ ταριχευθέντες, ὀλίγου ὅλον μένει ἀμήχανον ὅσον χρόνον.
Semper Fidelis
-
- Textkit Neophyte
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:31 pm
Re: Phaed 80c
No, to me it looks like an accusative of duration.
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 2504
- Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:16 pm
Re: Phaed 80c
See LSJ ἀμήχανος:
"it stays almost whole for it's impossible to say how long"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... mh%2Fxanosfreq. in Pl. with “οἷος, ὅσος, ἀμήχανον ὅσον χρόνον” Phd 95c; ἀμηχάνῳ ὅσῳ πλέονι by it is impossible to say how much more, R.588a; “ἀμή χανόν τι οἷον” Chrm.155d. Adv., “ἀμηχάνως ὡς εὖ” R.527e; “ἀ. γε ὡς σφόδρα” Phdr.263d.
"it stays almost whole for it's impossible to say how long"
Bill Walderman
- Constantinus Philo
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 1403
- Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:04 pm
-
- Textkit Neophyte
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:31 pm
Re: Phaed 80c
No, it is a relative adjective of amount (of time), which is how the word normally functions, as is described in LSJ:
So, "for as long time as is inconceivable". Or also as Hylander has translated it. For better English I would use another construction, like "for an inconceivably long time".Relat. and indirect interrog. Adj.:—of Size, as great as, how great; of Quantity, as much as, how much ; of Space, as far as, how far; of Time, as long as, how long; of Number, as many as, how many; of Sound, as loud as, how loud:
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 2504
- Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:16 pm
Re: Phaed 80c
To explain this in more detail, it's an idiom with a word that is understood and dropped. The word is λέγειν, or something like that, so that the full expression would be ὀλίγου ὅλον μένει ἀμήχανον λέγειν ὅσον χρόνον. And of course εστι would not be needed in the expression ἀμήχανον [λέγειν].
χρόνον is accusative "of duration" modifying the verb μένει.
ἀμήχανον [λέγειν] ὅσον is a relative clause, and χρόνον is the grammatical antecedent of ὅσον.
χρόνον is incorporated into the relative clause.
". . . it stays almost whole for a time of which the extent/magnitude is impossible to say."
In any case, ὅσον is definitely not exclamatory.
χρόνον is accusative "of duration" modifying the verb μένει.
ἀμήχανον [λέγειν] ὅσον is a relative clause, and χρόνον is the grammatical antecedent of ὅσον.
χρόνον is incorporated into the relative clause.
". . . it stays almost whole for a time of which the extent/magnitude is impossible to say."
In any case, ὅσον is definitely not exclamatory.
Bill Walderman
- Constantinus Philo
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 1403
- Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:04 pm
Re: Phaed 80c
In 2535 Smyth says that it is to be explained with εστί like αμήχανον εστί οσον
Semper Fidelis
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 2504
- Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:16 pm
Re: Phaed 80c
Yes, that was exactly my point: εστι is not necessary because it's understood with ἀμήχανον. But the idiom as a whole requires further explanation.
Bill Walderman