Phaed 80c

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Constantinus Philo
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Phaed 80c

Post by Constantinus Philo »

It looks like a dependent exclamation, does it not: συμπεσὸν γὰρ τὸ σῶμα καὶ ταριχευθέν, ὥσπερ οἱ ἐν Αἰγύπτῳ ταριχευθέντες, ὀλίγου ὅλον μένει ἀμήχανον ὅσον χρόνον.
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polemistes
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Re: Phaed 80c

Post by polemistes »

No, to me it looks like an accusative of duration.

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Re: Phaed 80c

Post by Hylander »

See LSJ ἀμήχανος:
freq. in Pl. with “οἷος, ὅσος, ἀμήχανον ὅσον χρόνον” Phd 95c; ἀμηχάνῳ ὅσῳ πλέονι by it is impossible to say how much more, R.588a; “ἀμή χανόν τι οἷον” Chrm.155d. Adv., “ἀμηχάνως ὡς εὖ” R.527e; “ἀ. γε ὡς σφόδρα” Phdr.263d.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... mh%2Fxanos

"it stays almost whole for it's impossible to say how long"
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Constantinus Philo
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Re: Phaed 80c

Post by Constantinus Philo »

My problem is όσον, is it exclamatory or not?
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polemistes
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Re: Phaed 80c

Post by polemistes »

No, it is a relative adjective of amount (of time), which is how the word normally functions, as is described in LSJ:
Relat. and indirect interrog. Adj.:—of Size, as great as, how great; of Quantity, as much as, how much ; of Space, as far as, how far; of Time, as long as, how long; of Number, as many as, how many; of Sound, as loud as, how loud:
So, "for as long time as is inconceivable". Or also as Hylander has translated it. For better English I would use another construction, like "for an inconceivably long time".

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Re: Phaed 80c

Post by Hylander »

To explain this in more detail, it's an idiom with a word that is understood and dropped. The word is λέγειν, or something like that, so that the full expression would be ὀλίγου ὅλον μένει ἀμήχανον λέγειν ὅσον χρόνον. And of course εστι would not be needed in the expression ἀμήχανον [λέγειν].

χρόνον is accusative "of duration" modifying the verb μένει.

ἀμήχανον [λέγειν] ὅσον is a relative clause, and χρόνον is the grammatical antecedent of ὅσον.

χρόνον is incorporated into the relative clause.

". . . it stays almost whole for a time of which the extent/magnitude is impossible to say."

In any case, ὅσον is definitely not exclamatory.
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Constantinus Philo
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Re: Phaed 80c

Post by Constantinus Philo »

In 2535 Smyth says that it is to be explained with εστί like αμήχανον εστί οσον
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Re: Phaed 80c

Post by Hylander »

Yes, that was exactly my point: εστι is not necessary because it's understood with ἀμήχανον. But the idiom as a whole requires further explanation.
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