long alpha/short alpha

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Asterisk1234
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long alpha/short alpha

Post by Asterisk1234 »

Some verbs have a stem beginning with α, like αδικεω, and it is necessary to know whether the vowel is long or short when it comes to conjugating the imperfect - a short alpha needs a temporal augment (η) whereas a long alpha remains the same.

Mastronarde indicates a short vowel with an inverted circumflex and a long one with a short dash above the letter (page XV ). But these helpful marks are not shown in the vocabularies or the glossaries. Is there a way to find out the length of the vowel? Or is it a matter of "just learn it", like learning the gender of nouns?

Thanks.
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polemistes
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Re: long alpha/short alpha

Post by polemistes »

In most cases also long alpha augments to eta. LSJ usually gives the vowel length when it is known, but not for case endings etc. which you can find in a grammar. For prefixes you usually have to look up the prefix itself in LSJ. So if you look up ἀ (the first entry of LSJ), in the meaning "not-", then you'll see that it's almost always short, except for in front of adjectives starting with three short syllables.

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seneca2008
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Re: long alpha/short alpha

Post by seneca2008 »

I cannot off hand think of a Greek verb that begins with a long alpha. My guess is that such a verb would be marked as long in the dictionary.

Smyth gives a helpful table of augments but doesn’t list any verbs beginning with a long alpha. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... ction%3D35

As Mastronarde doesn’t seem to offer an example of such a verb perhaps this isn’t something you need worry about.

Mastronarde on p. 131 says:
b.  Temporal augment is the lengthening of the initial vowel or diphthong of a verb stem that begins with a vowel. If the stem already begins with a long vowel or a long diphthong or ου-, no change is made; but otherwise the vowel is changed as follows: ᾰ → η, ε → η, ῐ → ῑ, ο → ω, ῠ → ῡ, αι → ῃ, ει → ῃ, αυ → ηυ, ευ → ηυ, οι → ῳ.
present stem imperfect stem
ἀγ- ἠγ-
αἱρε- ᾑρε-
οἰκε- ᾠκε-
ὠφελε- ὠφελε-  (no change)
The no change example he gives is with omega.

Cross post with polemistes.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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jeidsath
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Re: long alpha/short alpha

Post by jeidsath »

What would be an example of a verb beginning with a long alpha? I was going to say I've never seen one, but after a peek at the LSJ, here is one:

κ68 ἄασάν μ' ἕταροί τε κακοὶ πρὸς τοῖσί τε ὕπνος

However, I don't think there can be many.
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Re: long alpha/short alpha

Post by bedwere »

ἀάω
ἀάζω
ἀαίνω
are all I could find.

Asterisk1234
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Re: long alpha/short alpha

Post by Asterisk1234 »

OK, let me rephrase my question in a more general way:

How can I know, when looking at any word containing alpha, whether the alpha is short or long? The signs mentioned on page XV do not appear in the vocabularies and the glossaries, nor in the "Readings" exercises.

As per Seneca's comment, perhaps that's something I don't need to worry about. But I am curious...
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Re: long alpha/short alpha

Post by bedwere »

LSJ is not tailored to the beginner. It tells you about the length of ἀ- once and for all, not for each verb where it appears. The same applies to other prefixes.

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seneca2008
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Re: long alpha/short alpha

Post by seneca2008 »

How can I know, when looking at any word containing alpha, whether the alpha is short or long?
This is a matter of memorising the lengths of vowels as you go and re-memorising when you have forgotten. Textbooks often specify long vowels which might be doubtful. Even Probert's guide to accentuation marks long vowels as this is important in understanding accentuation.

I am surprised that you say Mastronarde doesn't show long vowels in vocabularies. On page 39 he says
Vocabulary
A note about vowel length in the vocabulary. The vowels α, ι, and υ may be long or short, but by convention the length is not indicated in normal texts. Nevertheless, students need to familiarize themselves with or memorize the quantity of these vowels, as this makes a difference to correct pronunciation, to scansion of Greek poetry, and sometimes to correct accentuation. The long quantity of the final alpha in the nominative singular of the long-vowel feminine nouns is unmarked but is to be inferred from the heading of the vocabulary list. Apart from such inflectional endings, the default assumption should be that unmarked α, ι, υ are short (as already in all the vocabulary in Unit 3): so here, the first two syllables of στρατιά contain short vowels (unmarked), but the third vowel is {long}, as the vocabulary heading indicates. When there is a reason to mark a non final vowel, that is done in the dictionary form in the Unit Vocabulary: so here, θύρα and δίκη have the first vowel marked short in order that you will know that the nominative plural is accented θύραι or δίκαι (if the vowel were long, the accent would have to be a circumflex); similarly, the entry νίκη lets you know that the nominative plural will be νῖκαι, whereas τῑμή has its iota marked to assist in pronunciation and scansion.
I have difficulty in rendering the macrons which Mastronarde prints but you can read this passage in your book. It seems to me looking at the vocabularies he does mark long vowels.

My advice is that this is something to learn as you go and not to worry about it over much. Mastronarde has written a good textbook but sometimes especially when you have no teacher its difficult to see the wood for the trees.

There is a lot to learn in greek and the more you learn the more your realise there is yet more to get to grips with.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

Asterisk1234
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Re: long alpha/short alpha

Post by Asterisk1234 »

Thank you Seneca - your replies are always clear and informative.

I must have read the paragraph on p. 39 that you are talking about a long time ago (I am VERY slow), at a time where it was "over my head" and didn't register. It's not because I don't read the book with attention: up to my current unit (17) the pages are falling out, dirty, full of my notes, etc.

Thanks.
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Witstone
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Re: long alpha/short alpha

Post by Witstone »

Though it seems like you've settled on Mastronarde, going through the Italian Versions of Ἀθήνᾱζε is a good way to internalize vowels with long iotas, alphas, and upsilons, since Ἀθήνᾱζε uses macrons in context.

Also, memorizing Greek poetry or drama will drill some hidden long vowels into your head (e.g. ...ὃν κατὰ θῡμόν in the proem of the Odyssey).

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seneca2008
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Re: long alpha/short alpha

Post by seneca2008 »

I must have read the paragraph on p. 39 that you are talking about a long time ago (I am VERY slow), at a time where it was "over my head" and didn't register. It's not because I don't read the book with attention: up to my current unit (17) the pages are falling out, dirty, full of my notes, etc.
I am sure you can now make much more sense of the material earlier in the book. Presumably you are learning on your own and learning Greek that way is hard - it’s difficult enough with a teacher. Re-reading earlier material is, as you know, key in consolidating progress.

Working slowly is a good approach. There is a lot to master!
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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