Why do some words have a variable number of accents?

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marcovlatinforum
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Why do some words have a variable number of accents?

Post by marcovlatinforum »

Hello Textkit! I've just started going through Μελετήματα Α (the first volume of exercises form the ᾽Αθήναζε series). Having been required to pay attention to the accents, lots of doubts came across my mind.

Let's consider the simple sentence "ὁ γὰρ κλῆρός ἐστι μικρός, μακρὸς δὲ ὁ πόνος". Why do we put the accent on the termination (-ός) of κλῆρός, and we don't, for example, in σῖτος? Why the accent of κλῆρός is acute? (I think it should be acute since ἐστι is enclitic, but it's better to ask). Why some words (like κλῆρός) have two accents?

᾽Αθήναζε begins with "Δικαιόπολις Ἀθηναῖός ἐστιν". Shouldn't the first accent be grave? Why, in the left margin, the authors write the derivation "Ἀτηεναῖος < Ἀτῆναι" without even putting the accent on the termination?
Last edited by marcovlatinforum on Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

hairetikon
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Re: Why does some words have a variable number of accents?

Post by hairetikon »

Since you have many questions (as opposed to one specific question), I think the best strategy is to read more about accents first. Have you checked out this one? https://ucbclassics.dreamhosters.com/an ... tionU.html I found it to be helpful.

The first thing to do is to learn where the accent is persistent (e.g. nouns) and where it is recessive (e.g. the finite forms of verbs), and then try to incorporate the enclitics and the procilitics into the picture. You will see then that there are conditions under which a word needs to have two accents.

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jeidsath
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Re: Why does some words have a variable number of accents?

Post by jeidsath »

Specifically, in this case because of the enclitic εστι, which throws its accent back to the word before, when possible.

Also, be careful about your spelling. I've never heard of a πομνος and Athens has a θ not a τ.
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seneca2008
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Re: Why does some words have a variable number of accents?

Post by seneca2008 »

Like Hairetikon I can't figure out exactly what you are asking because you start to ask a question and then half answer it.

I recommend you read page 285 of Athenaze which explains how enclitics affect the accentuation of the immediately preceding word.

It would be helpful if you post the whole sentence you are concerned about when asking for help. I can see that κλῆρός takes two accents and that is explained in e. on p. 285. "If a word has a circumflex on its penult an acute accent is added to its Ultima to support an enclitic." You need to give the whole sentence which includes "σῖτος" to help with that.

In ὁ Δικαιόπολις Ἀθηναῖός ἐστιν. You would not expect the acute of Δικαιόπολις to turn to a grave because the acute to grave change only happens on the last syllable. The grave can only stand on the Ultima. I dont understand with the book in front of me of what you mean by the "derivation in the left margin".

The site recommended by hairetikon looks useful.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: Why does some words have a variable number of accents?

Post by jeidsath »

σῖτος has its normal accent, and would only be accented differently were it followed by an enclitic. (Like "σῖτός ἐστι")

By "first accent," he is looking at "Ἀθηναῖός ἐστι" from right to left and asking about the acute on the far right. He is asking why it does not go to grave, as would be normal were it between orthotone words, and why it is not written in the derivation, which he quotes.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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RandyGibbons
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Re: Why does some words have a variable number of accents?

Post by RandyGibbons »

marcov, if you don't mind some friendly help with your English, it is "Why do some words have ..." (not 'Why does some words').

marcovlatinforum
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Re: Why do some words have a variable number of accents?

Post by marcovlatinforum »

I think I should have studied a bit before posting....
hairetikon wrote: Wed Dec 25, 2019 7:22 pm Have you checked out this one? https://ucbclassics.dreamhosters.com/an ... tionU.html I found it to be helpful.
I have looked at your link (still reading it) and yes, it was very helpful!
seneca2008 wrote: Wed Dec 25, 2019 10:08 pm You need to give the whole sentence which includes "σῖτος" to help with that.
My brain had arbitrarily decided that, in ancient Greek, terminations had an accent of their own... I have now discovered this is quite false.
seneca2008 wrote: Wed Dec 25, 2019 10:08 pm You would not expect the acute of Δικαιόπολις to turn to a grave because the acute to grave change only happens on the last syllable
It's kind of embarrassing to say. But yes, I was thinking about that.

@RandyGibbons
Of course I don't mind! (I'm not really good with languages :oops: )

Thank you all! And sorry for the spelling and for the typos (I still have to find a way to write accents and Greek characters with my standard keyborad)

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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Why do some words have a variable number of accents?

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

marcovlatinforum wrote: Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:23 pm Thank you all! And sorry for the spelling and for the typos (I still have to find a way to write accents and Greek characters with my standard keyborad)
Essentially the same for both PC and Mac. Go to keyboard options and add the polytonic Greek keyboard. θὲν ἅυε φῦν!
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persequor
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Re: Why do some words have a variable number of accents?

Post by persequor »

If you'll mention what kind of device/computer you're typing on, I can give you some hints about typing Greek, including accents.
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seneca2008
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Re: Why do some words have a variable number of accents?

Post by seneca2008 »

marcovlatinforum wrote: seneca2008 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2019 10:08 pm
You would not expect the acute of Δικαιόπολις to turn to a grave because the acute to grave change only happens on the last syllable
It's kind of embarrassing to say. But yes, I was thinking about that.
Dont be embarrassed about the questions you ask. It's the only way to learn.

I suggest that you go slowly on accents and keep revising the rules that Athenaze give you. As in learning most things taking small steps and revising as you go is the most efficient method.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Why do some words have a variable number of accents?

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

seneca2008 wrote: Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:27 pm
marcovlatinforum wrote: seneca2008 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2019 10:08 pm
You would not expect the acute of Δικαιόπολις to turn to a grave because the acute to grave change only happens on the last syllable
It's kind of embarrassing to say. But yes, I was thinking about that.
Dont be embarrassed about the questions you ask. It's the only way to learn.

I suggest that you go slowly on accents and keep revising the rules that Athenaze give you. As in learning most things taking small steps and revising as you go is the most efficient method.
My Greek professor in college (the one who took us through intermediate), never systematically taught the rules of accent, but told us that he would do it as we went along, and that it was actually experience in the language which would really teach them to us. Towards the end of our intermediate semester he gave us an "ungraded pop quiz" which had us supply accents to a text. the lowest score was an 80%, most of us were in the 90's somewhere. He proved his assertion! We then got him to use the quiz as extra credit which we generally did not need, but it was the principle of thing. :lol:
N.E. Barry Hofstetter

Cuncta mortalia incerta...

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