Moving from Attic to Homeric: looking for your experiences

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Xyloplax
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Moving from Attic to Homeric: looking for your experiences

Post by Xyloplax »

So, I'm an early Intermediate reader: I've read commented but unadapted texts like Hayes and Nimis' commentaries on Pseudo-Lucian's The Ass and Lucian's A True Story, I've finished the Bristol Post-Beginner series, and have read a few selections of Xenophon and others. Lucian's "easy" and the Bristol series a mix, but for the most part hard and I had to reach for the translation a bunch of times with Plato and Demosthenes, so that gives you an idea of where I'm at.

On advice from a Classics prof, I'm going to read most of the Odyssey, using several texts she uses for her class. I've seen the resources list in the Homeric board and have most of it ready to go. But I'm not really looking for additional resources as much as I'm looking for your own experiences if you've gone this route as I've read only Attic Prose. I know Homer has a (quite) different vocabulary (I've got the lexica sorted out, I think), and that his morphology is sometimes wildly different, and Homeric isn't a dialect, so much as a collection of dialects and time capsules of those dialects spanning several hundred years of Greek history.

So that all said, what have been your experiences with this transition? What worked? What didn't? How fast did you read at the start and the end? Did you focus on meter heavily or just read it as prose? Looking for stories, examples, tricks and tips. Thanks.

Note: if this really belongs on the Homeric board and this irritates people, let me know and I'll remove it

Hylander
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Re: Moving from Attic to Homeric: looking for your experiences

Post by Hylander »

I know Homer has a (quite) different vocabulary (I've got the lexica sorted out, I think), and that his morphology is sometimes wildly different, and Homeric isn't a dialect, so much as a collection of dialects and time capsules of those dialects spanning several hundred years of Greek history
.

Those are the essential points. The syntax is not hard, definitely not as hard as Plato or Demosthenes. The vocabulary is somewhat different from Attic, and there are many obscure words, but it doesn't take long to adjust. The grammatical forms are probably the hardest part, but you will get used to them, probably sooner than you might think. A good basic commentary should help you with the vocabulary and the forms.

You should definitely master the meter. Don't even think about reading the text as prose. If you try that, the gods will curse you with the inability ever to read the Homeric poems with enjoyment . . . or any other Greek poetry. The meter is integral to the message, and a strong sense of the meter will help you develop your ability to read fluently with comprehension. It's not as hard as you might think at first blush, and it won't take as long as you might think to internalize it. Write out the scansion for ten lines a day, and then twenty, and read them aloud. Pay particular attention to caesuras. These are actually more important than dividing the line into feet. It won't be long before you find that the scansion falls naturally into place without the need to mark the text or even think about the scansion most of the time.

I learned Greek in high school, starting in the 9th grade. Towards the end of the first year we read Book 9 of the Odyssey. That should give you an idea of the level of difficulty. There's a steep learning curve, but it's not a long one. And don't be shy about resorting to a translation when you need to. Just soldier through the first couple of months or so and you'll be on your way.

Good luck with Homer, and best wishes for the new year!
Bill Walderman

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seneca2008
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Re: Moving from Attic to Homeric: looking for your experiences

Post by seneca2008 »

Happy New Year to all the regular and intermittent contributors to this board and the newcomers and those who lurk but have yet to register. (Sounds like an invocation to the Gods even the ones whose names we dont know!)

I am sure that Hylander gives very sound advice here, as in all his contributions to the forum.

I dont think there are any particular "tricks" which would help you. If you can read Demosthenes you will find Homeric syntax simple. Vocabulary can always be looked up. After a while what seemed strange will become normal. Have some faith and persevere.

Meter, as Hylander says, is important but don't get obsessed by it or indeed by homeric philology. Neither of these are ends in themselves. A good commentary will help you but don't neglect other secondary literature. Even at an intermediate stage something like The Cambridge Companion To Homer Edited By Robert Fowler would be helpful too. The beauty of the Homeric epics is only one reason why they have endured.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

Aetos
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Re: Moving from Attic to Homeric: looking for your experiences

Post by Aetos »

I'll just say Hylander is spot on with his comments. I started with Homeric Greek and finished the textbook just a little over a year ago and with it Book 1 of the Iliad. I immediately started in on Book 2 and have continued on through the books to where I'm now reading Book 19. I read the Iliad every day for an hour (more or less, usually more!). Before I start, I do a quick review of an Anki deck of Homeric Vocabulary, which contains more than 1700 of the more frequently used words. Initially, it took me roughly 45 minutes to review the selected vocabulary (you learn 20 new words a day and revise previously learned words at intervals based on their weighted difficulty). Having now "learnt" all the words in the deck, I'm in "maintenance mode", so reviews take about 10 minutes. To learn the deck took about 3 months (I started this exercise around book 12). Having done that, I can pick up the Odyssey and read a section without having to look up every other word in the lexicon. As for the Iliad, a year ago I could read about 30 lines an hour. A year later, I manage 60-75 lines an hour on the first readthrough of each book along with reading Leaf's commentary (I'm using Leaf & Bayfield's red MacMillans). On the second readthrough, I can do roughly a 100 lines an hour and for that I use Willcock's commentary, so that I can get more recent information. All in all, I cover a book every 2 to 3 weeks. At that rate, I expect to finish the Iliad by April. It will have taken me roughly 18 months to read the entire poem (pretty much twice). Applying this approach to the Odyssey, which is a somewhat shorter poem, it would probably take me less than a year. If you were to confine your reading to the story of the Wrath of Achilles, it would probably require considerably less time. Benner's book, "Selections from the Iliad" does just this and is designed to be read over the course of 2 semesters. The only problem is that being published in 1905, it doesn't include the results of more modern scholarship, although I think his notes are still very helpful for an intermediate student. (That's why I read Willcock's commentaries)

I've found that after a while, reading metrically becomes quite natural. The more you do it, the easier it gets. Dactylic Hexameter, the metre of the epics, is probably the easiest metrical scheme to master, just dactyls and spondees. I did what Hylander suggests and wrote out and scanned the first hundred lines. My textbook also added the exercise of memorizing the first 20 lines of the Iliad, basically just memorizing one line at time. I have found it an excellent way to gain an appreciation of the metre of the poem and to internalize the syntax and vocabulary, so I've carried on with it and have the first 75 lines memorised. My goal is to be able to recite the first 100 lines and then take on BoJo! (Just kidding!) These days, I recite it (very quietly, well, more like whispering, really) as I take my ten minute walk down to the centre of town. The cadence of my gait helps me maintain the rhythm of the poem as I walk.

I'm sorry if this is a bit long-winded, but it's hard to compress the experience of the past year's reading into a couple of short paragraphs. I wanted to give you a description of my approach and its results, which so far I see as quite positive. I see Seneca has also made some helpful comments. Seneca has, I think, quite a broad knowledge of the field and is especially good at suggesting pertinent secondary literature. Personally, I've found Mark Edwards' Homer: Poet of the Iladgives an excellent overview of Homeric scholarship, especially for a beginner. Good Luck to you and I hope you enjoy this very worthwhile journey.

Happy New Year to one and all!

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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Moving from Attic to Homeric: looking for your experiences

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

I think you've been given excellent advice. I've had a blast reading the Iliad, not having read Homer seriously in over 30 years. I have nothing practical to add (anything I would say would largely be a repeat), but I would emphasize this: remember that it's poetry, and that the meter is the integral (but not sole) element of that poetry. Occasionally, I've looked at a section that at first reading doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but when I read it metrically it magically becomes clear. It's like Shakespeare (the plays, that is, the play's the thing). When you just read Shakespeare, it can be difficult, with odd vocabulary and strangely arranged English. But when you hear it and see it performed by competent actors, it's far easier to understand, and you get dimensions of appreciation you can't get simply from reading.

Here's a fun video on Shakespeare and original pronunciation that I think might have some relevance to the way we read ancient languages:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s
N.E. Barry Hofstetter

Cuncta mortalia incerta...

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