προκαθισταίη

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Constantinus Philo
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προκαθισταίη

Post by Constantinus Philo »

ἔλεξα ὅτι τὸν μὲν νόμον οὐ δικαίως μου προκαθισταίη Φιλοκράτης κατηγορῶν καὶ διαβάλλων εἰς τὸ δικαστήριον, Antif., 6., 21
ok, accoring to LS the meaning is to appoint beforehand, in Bailly it is 'placer devant pour protéger', and in this translation it means 'legal impediment'. I understand that the translator has come up with this term precisely based on the context, however how? or is there a dictionary of ancient greek legal terms?I have not found the collocation τὸν νόμον προκαθίστημι in the lexicons.
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: προκαθισταίη

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

From LSJ:

προκαθίστημι, appoint beforehand, ἄρχειν αὐτὸν τῶν σωματοφυλάκων .. προκαταστήσας D.C.58.9.
2. Med., φύλακας προκαθιστάμενοι causing them to be posted in front, X.Hier.6.9.
b. act., fig., use as a screen, τὸν νόμον π. Antipho 6.21.
3. Med., prepare or arrange before, προκαταστήσασθαι τὸν λόγον D.H.Rh.5.2: abs., establish before, προκαταστήσασθαι ὅτι .. S.E.M.8.379, cf. Anon.Lond.38.55, Theo Sm.p.120 H.
II. Pass., with aor. 2 and pf. Act., intr., to be set before, φυλακῆς μὴ προκαθεστηκυίας no guard having been set, Th.2.2, cf. J.AJ15.8.4.
2. to be established before, S.E.M.11.41.
Sounds like a contextual definition.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter

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Constantinus Philo
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Re: προκαθισταίη

Post by Constantinus Philo »

and contextual it is
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Hylander
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Re: προκαθισταίη

Post by Hylander »

and contextual it is
The LSJ entry is not just simply "contextual," pulled out of thin air to supply a meaning that seems right in context. It's a helpful gloss based not just on the context but the meaning of the prefixes and the base verb. The elements of a compound verb retain their force in the compound. προ-καθ-ισταίη.

Sure, if you read this sentence out of context, you might need to look it up. But if you read this in context and understand how Greek compound verbs are put together, you shouldn't really even need to look this up in LSJ, although LSJ might confirm your understanding.

One of the things LSJ is designed to do is to illustrate the use of words in a variety of contexts. This is one use for this verb, and LSJ properly records it.
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seneca2008
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Re: προκαθισταίη

Post by seneca2008 »

Constantinus Philo wrote:ἔλεξα ὅτι τὸν μὲν νόμον οὐ δικαίως μου προκαθισταίη Φιλοκράτης κατηγορῶν καὶ διαβάλλων εἰς τὸ δικαστήριον, Antif., 6., 21
ok, accoring to LS the meaning is to appoint beforehand, in Bailly it is 'placer devant pour protéger', and in this translation it means 'legal impediment'. I understand that the translator has come up with this term precisely based on the context, however how? or is there a dictionary of ancient greek legal terms?I have not found the collocation τὸν νόμον προκαθίστημι in the lexicons.
I wish you would be more accurate in your questions and give more context.

The Loeb actually says:

"....At that, I presented myself before the court in my turn. I told the same jury that Philocrates had no right to place legal impediments in my way by coming to court with his outrageous charge, when I was bringing suits against Aristion and Philinus on the following day and the day after: for that was his only reason for making such allegations."

( ἐπειδὴ δὲ οὗτος ταῦτ᾿ ἔλεγεν, ἀναβὰς ἐγὼ εἰς τὸ δικαστήριον τοῖς αὐτοῖς δικασταῖς ἔλεξα ὅτι τὸν μὲν νόμον οὐ δικαίως μου προκαθισταίη Φιλοκράτης κατηγορῶν καὶ διαβάλλων εἰς τὸ δικαστήριον, μελλόντων ἔσεσθαί μοι ἀγώνων πρὸς Ἀριστίωνα καὶ Φιλῖνον αὔριον καὶ ἕνῃ, ὧνπερ [144] 22 ἕνεκα τοὺς λόγους τούτους λέγοι·)

I hope that now other readers of this thread who were not familiar with this speech (like me) will not be misled into thinking you were making a genuine point. Hylander is correct to say that this seems quite a normal use of this verb but it doesn't mean what you claim in your post.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: προκαθισταίη

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Hylander wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:31 pm
and contextual it is
The LSJ entry is not just simply "contextual," pulled out of thin air to supply a meaning that seems right in context. It's a helpful gloss based not just on the context but the meaning of the prefixes and the base verb. The elements of a compound verb retain their force in the compound. προ-καθ-ισταίη.

Sure, if you read this sentence out of context, you might need to look it up. But if you read this in context and understand how Greek compound verbs are put together, you shouldn't really even need to look this up in LSJ, although LSJ might confirm your understanding.

One of the things LSJ is designed to do is to illustrate the use of words in a variety of contexts. This is one use for this verb, and LSJ properly records it.
You say that the the LSJ entry is not simply contextual, and then you say:
Hylander wrote:Sure, if you read this sentence out of context, you might need to look it up.
And of course, no one said that the LSJ is pulling anything out of thin air, or even that it is simply contextual. Contextual means that the the specific usage is conditioned by context (I know, that's a bit like saying that water is always wet). Here The Loeb translator is accurately giving us the meaning, but not necessarily what a student might expect from a "literal" translation.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter

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Hylander
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Re: προκαθισταίη

Post by Hylander »

I meant to respond to the implication in Constantinus' last post, which I took to be sarcastic, that LSJ had simply picked a meaning from the context. There is more to it -- LSJ offered a translation for the usage of this word in the specific context, based on the composition of the compound verb. You don't need LSJ's gloss or the translation Constantinus referenced if you read without translating -- the elements of the verb make the meaning clear -- but one of LSJ's goals is to display the entire range of meanings that a given word can have, and this is an example.
Bill Walderman

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