Plato, Plotinus and beyond

[Andriko]

I didn't want to resurrect an old thread (viewtopic.php?t=65315), but the question is similar;

Do any of you have much experience with Platonism and the Platonists?

This is where I would like to focus my Greek at present, and am at a stage where I think I can grasp Plato, having read the Crito and Euthyphro and more or less understood them. And besides, much of Plato's witting is lively and engaging, and so not too hard to pick up (as long as you don't try to read 'Parmenides'...).

Plotinus and the Platonists after him, however, are impregnable even in translation (I sometimes feel that the English might be harder to comprehend than the Greek).

Is there somewhere where I can find the vocabulary needed (many of the words I find Plotinus using have meanings beyond the expected - θεάομαι, for example, is used in the sense of 'contemplate'), and which Plato to begin with as a way of building up to the much more challenging stuff?

And if anyone knows of any interesting side literature on the subject (Thomas Taylor I suppose!), I'd be happy to listen.

Thanks,

A

[mahasacham]

You would probably be interested in the Noetic Society. They have a youtube channel with a lot of lectures from the 80s and 90s on Platonism. They also have a lot of stuff on internet archive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvs52cBjpgU

https://archive.org/details/plato-phaed ... oa/page/n5

If you don't mind interlinear texts.
https://archive.org/details/plotinus-enneads-balboa

[Tugodum]

A Plotinus Reader has been published recently which you may find helpful, although it received at least one rather harsh review: https://brill.com/view/journals/jpt/12/ ... p94_14.xml
(I haven't looked into it myself)

[mwh]

Andriko, It’s a huge jump from simple Platonic dialogues such as the Crito and the Euthyphro to the metaphysical intricacies of Plotinus, and I would think twice before attempting the leap. You don’t know what you’re in for. The essay by E.R. Dodds that I mentioned in the earlier thread put Plotinus on a new footing, however, and to judge from the description it looks as if the recent Reader mentioned by Tugodum may make a good introduction. (It includes Plotinan vocab, but the BMCR review rightly warns that Plotinus’ style of language “challenges advanced scholars”).

For philosophical background and context I’d recommend A.A. Long’s “Greek Models of Mind and Self,” which goes from Homer to Plato, Aristotle, the Hellenistic philosophies, and eventually neoPlatonism and Plotinus.

[Andriko]

Thanks for all the advice everyone, I will get to work looking everything up:

@Tugodum - Any reader addition is promising, so I will look into it!

@mwh - It's not so much a huge jump as a great abyss, and I know I am getting into something that's more than just understanding the language, but getting into complex (and convoluted) trains of thought, but it was just such things that got me into Greek in the first place, so I might as well throw myself in the abyss now I'm staring into it!

[Tugodum]

"it was just such things that got me into Greek in the first place" -
same here, Andriko!

[Constantinus Philo]

there is also Paul Kalligas, Commentary on the Enneads

[Andriko]

"it was just such things that got me into Greek in the first place" -
same here, Andriko!

How have you find it so far? Can you recommended any progression to build up to reading Plotinus?

[Tugodum]

Well ... It was 20+ years ago ... I'd recommend starting with 6.9 (ironically, the last in Porphyry's arrangement, yet by far the best entry point, in my view).... But you need a good commentary, and there is one for you, if you can get hold of it: Plotinus on the Good or the One (Enneads VI, 9) : an analytical commentary, by P.A. Meijer (Amsterdam : J.C. Gieben, 1992) It is 380 pages, read every single one of them as you go through the text.
After that, to proceed further/deeper/higher, you'd need, first, to familiarize yourself thoroughly, at least in a good translation, with the second part of Plato's Pamenides.

[Andriko]

Thanks Tugodum, I will keep an eye out for Mr Meijer's book (hopefully there is an English version of it!).

And I've read Jowett's Parmeinides, though I am sure there might be a more recent translation, though it is one of the more obscure dialogues - and also one of the hardest ones to keep up with! It makes me appreciate the difficulties translators have - not only do they need an expert knowledge of the language, but also of philosophy and Platonic thought.

[Tugodum]

Andriko, Meijer's book is in English. As for Parmenides, you just need to be familiar with the logical structure of its 8 "hypotheses" (or, at least, the first 3 of them). Perhaps you may find a concise account of them in secondary literature.

[Andriko]

Thanks, I had a moment where I thought it would be in Dutch!