Phaedo - ask me anything

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jeidsath
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Phaedo - ask me anything

Post by jeidsath »

I returned to the Phaedo a few weeks ago, after having spent quite a lot of time reading Xenophon and Homer. I have never read it before in English, so this was my first time through in any language. During the read, I did not look up a word from it in a lexicon, but puzzled everything out from context, whenever necessary. The only note that I looked up -- the only time I used an outside resource of any kind -- was the one in Burnet explaining the Euripus reference.

I believe that I understood the dialogue at a high level, though of course there are words and phrases where I was not completely confident. Since I realize that a number of people here have been skeptical that Greek can be learned to the level where you can read it like you would read a book in any modern language, this is your chance to test my comprehension. Ask away. I'll do my best to answer.

(I took up indoor rowing a couple of months ago, and did a good chunk of my reading there, using my PDF reader and a scan of the Burnet OCT. Between aerobic exercise and soul-health, I should be covered either way the coronavirus goes, I hope.)
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

cb
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Re: Phaedo - ask me anything

Post by cb »

Hi Joel, sorry I'm not across the previous conversation(s) you mention where you say that people are skeptical that "Greek can be learned to the level where you can read it like you would read a book in any modern language": I know that many people have read Greek texts cold without resources as you say. I've definitely done this with Platonic dialogues. It definitely can be done, at least for some texts and sufficient familiarity with the author.

However, a different point: I do remember people saying that, even if one can read a text without resources, reading with will lead to a better reading. I agree with this. The secondary literature on the arguments for the immortality of the soul in the Phaedo is definitely useful for me.

One suggestion would be to read through one or more commentaries on a second read through, and see what new things you pick up? Just a thought.

Cheers, Chad

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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Phaedo - ask me anything

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Mary Beard's comments have become a point of discussion for many:

https://www.the-tls.co.uk/articles/what ... ually-say/
Joel wrote:(I took up indoor rowing a couple of months ago, and did a good chunk of my reading there, using my PDF reader and a scan of the Burnet OCT. Between aerobic exercise and soul-health, I should be covered either way the coronavirus goes, I hope.)
Combing rowing and Xenophon? Excellent. A fair chunk of my Iliad reading has taken place on the bus (I can get to work in half the time on public transportation in my area than by car). And I'm so glad I have resources like Autenreith available on my phone. Hapax legomena, and all that... :)
N.E. Barry Hofstetter

Cuncta mortalia incerta...

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Re: Phaedo - ask me anything

Post by RandyGibbons »

Congratulations, Joel! Keep it up (I mean the rowing of course :lol: ).

As you know, at the end of the Phaedo (which I've only read in English), Socrates gives a guided tour of the next world, which is actually a part of the earth as he conceives it, with a natural terrain. I've often thought this non-dialog segment would independently make for a nice intermediate reading selection of Greek, with a good vocabulary of natural phenomena. How did you fare with this segment?

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Re: Phaedo - ask me anything

Post by jeidsath »

Socrates' beliefs about ἡ ἰδέα τῆς γῆς and οἱ τόποι αὐτῆς was one of the more difficult bits for me, presenting plenty of vocabulary that I had to puzzle out, and through much of it, I wasn't sure where Plato was going with it. Now, glancing back through it, it seems clear enough, but it was a slog for the first time through. For example, the difference between aether and air should have been clear enough, but my pre-Einsteinian physics didn't come flooding flooding back until 111b, "ὃ δὲ ἡμῖν ἀήρ, ἐκείνοις τὸν αἰθέρα", and I realized that the aether was what they thought the stars hung in, and then I went back and read 109b again.

Speaking of 109, I did wonder if the bit about "ὥσπερ...τις ἐν μέσῳ τῷ πυθμένι τοῦ πελάγους" was something that crept in from Aesop.

The part about "Glaucon's art" was a bit confusing. I looked that up in the scholion just now, and the scholiast has served me better than for Euripus, but has now left me with three different explanations instead, none of which seem quite on the nose.

The most difficult thing with all of 109-113 was understanding where Socrates was headed with it all. I didn't really understand the point of 111d and following until I got to 113d (though it should have been clear that this was going to be the point once he mentioned Tartarus).
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: Phaedo - ask me anything

Post by seanjonesbw »

How did you feel at the end? I confess I found it a bit of a cheek moistener.

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Re: Phaedo - ask me anything

Post by jeidsath »

I did read the end in my armchair, not on the rower, and certainly found that it made for gripping reading. But for me personally, I found the catastrophe of 88c, followed by the eucatastrophe of 89b,c, to be the most moving parts.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: Phaedo - ask me anything

Post by phalakros »

Couldn’t you easily check your own comprehension using a translation and/or lexicon? It’s not a bad idea to read things through initially without aids. As others have suggested, you could then reread with a commentary. Rowe’s CGLC on the Phaedo is a good place to start.

You might also enjoy exploring untranslated, later texts, if you haven’t already. E.g., Basil of Ancyra’s De Virginitate is full of Platonic allusions (esp. the Symposium) in addition to being generally interesting.

If you want a test, though, how about translating the second passage below (Kebes’ objection, which shouldn't be too hard)? I’ve given the context too. I’ll raise objections if I see anything; others can do the same.

Context:

ἐμοὶ γὰρ δοκεῖ ὁμοίως λέγεσθαι ταῦτα ὥσπερ ἄν τις περὶ ἀνθρώπου ὑφάντου πρεσβύτου ἀποθανόντος λέγοι τοῦτον τὸν λόγον, ὅτι οὐκ ἀπόλωλεν ὁ ἄνθρωπος ἀλλ’ ἔστι που σῶς, τεκμήριον δὲ παρέχοιτο θοιμάτιον ὃ ἠμπείχετο αὐτὸς ὑφηνάμενος ὅτι ἐστὶ σῶν καὶ οὐκ ἀπόλωλεν, καὶ εἴ τις ἀπιστοίη αὐτῷ, ἀνερωτῴη πότερον πολυχρονιώτερόν ἐστι τὸ γένος ἀνθρώπου ἢ ἱματίου ἐν χρείᾳ τε ὄντος καὶ φορουμένου, ἀποκριναμένου δή [τινος] ὅτι πολὺ τὸ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, οἴοιτο ἀποδεδεῖχθαι ὅτι παντὸς ἄρα μᾶλλον ὅ γε ἄνθρωπος σῶς ἐστιν, ἐπειδὴ τό γε ὀλιγοχρονιώτερον οὐκ ἀπόλωλεν. τὸ δ’ οἶμαι, ὦ Σιμμία, οὐχ οὕτως ἔχει· σκόπει γὰρ καὶ σὺ ἃ λέγω. πᾶς [γὰρ] ἂν ὑπολάβοι ὅτι εὔηθες λέγει ὁ τοῦτο λέγων· ὁ γὰρ ὑφάντης οὗτος πολλὰ κατατρίψας τοιαῦτα ἱμάτια καὶ ὑφηνάμενος ἐκείνων μὲν ὕστερος ἀπόλωλεν πολλῶν ὄντων, τοῦ δὲ τελευταίου οἶμαι πρότερος, καὶ οὐδέν τι μᾶλλον τούτου ἕνεκα ἄνθρωπός ἐστιν ἱματίου φαυλότερον οὐδ’ ἀσθενέστερον.

To translate:

τὴν αὐτὴν δὲ ταύτην οἶμαι εἰκόνα δέξαιτ’ ἂν ψυχὴ πρὸς σῶμα, καί τις λέγων αὐτὰ ταῦτα περὶ αὐτῶν μέτρι’ ἄν μοι φαίνοιτο λέγειν, ὡς ἡ μὲν ψυχὴ πολυχρόνιόν ἐστι, τὸ δὲ σῶμα ἀσθενέστερον καὶ ὀλιγοχρονιώτερον· ἀλλὰ γὰρ ἂν φαίη ἑκάστην τῶν ψυχῶν πολλὰ σώματα κατατρίβειν, ἄλλως τε κἂν πολλὰ ἔτη βιῷ—εἰ γὰρ ῥέοι τὸ σῶμα καὶ ἀπολλύοιτο ἔτι ζῶντος τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, ἀλλ’ ἡ ψυχὴ ἀεὶ τὸ κατατριβόμενον ἀνυφαίνοι—ἀναγκαῖον μεντἂν εἴη, ὁπότε ἀπολλύοιτο ἡ ψυχή, τὸ τελευταῖον ὕφασμα τυχεῖν αὐτὴν ἔχουσαν καὶ τούτου μόνου προτέραν ἀπόλλυσθαι, ἀπολομένης δὲ τῆς ψυχῆς τότ’ ἤδη τὴν φύσιν τῆς ἀσθενείας ἐπιδεικνύοι τὸ σῶμα καὶ ταχὺ σαπὲν διοίχοιτο.

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Re: Phaedo - ask me anything

Post by jeidsath »

phalakros wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:38 pm Couldn’t you easily check your own comprehension using a translation and/or lexicon?
You mean, why post to Textkit instead? We couldn't have conversation if I didn't. And I think that there might even be other advantages in addition.
As others have suggested, you could then reread with a commentary.
Oh, I do expect that I'll skim through Burnet at some point. But that's hardly the point of this thread or forum, which is really language acquisition, not Plato acquisition.
You might also enjoy exploring untranslated, later texts, if you haven’t already. E.g., Basil of Ancyra’s De Virginitate is full of Platonic allusions (esp. the Symposium) in addition to being generally interesting.
I thought that you must be talking about Basil Caesariensis, who from what little I've read of by him -- a short selection from De legendis gentilium libris -- struck me as, well, boring. However, looking at De Virginitate in Migne (in the Caesariensis volume, 30) the Latin introduction suggests that Caesariensis can't be the author, though it doesn't mention Basil of Ancyra. (I think so anyway, but my Latin is very basic.) I will take a look at him, if you think he is an interesting fellow. Though I have no special care about whether something has been translated or not.
If you want a test, though, how about translating the second passage below (Kebes’ objection, which shouldn't be too hard)? I’ve given the context too. I’ll raise objections if I see anything; others can do the same.
Better to resurrect the unseen thread if we want to do translation, which I would greatly enjoy. But I had hoped that we could have just one thread on a better exercise than translation: comprehension. Regardless, here is my Englishing:

The soul might accept the same portrait regarding the body, and someone speaking the same things about them would appear to me to say reasonably: that the soul is long-lasting, and that the body is weaker and more short-lasting, for rather he may say that each soul wears out many bodies, or otherwise lives many years -- for if the body should fail (?) and perish while the man yet lives, still the soul might always slough off/replace (?) the worn out thing -- but it would be necessary however, that whenever the soul perishes, it should happen to have a final garment, and to precede this one only in destruction. And then with the soul having already perished, the body should demonstrate the weakness of its nature and quickly rot away.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: Phaedo - ask me anything

Post by mahasacham »

Or attempt a paraphrase of it in Koine or in just really simple attic.
I would say just the parts that you would consider most difficult that way the paraphrase would really highlight your assumptions.
And if youre really feeling bold, try a paraphrase into Homeric hexameter.......That would be tricky.


cause I mean ultimately your just gonna paraphrase it when someone asks you a question. So why not just use Greek.

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Re: Phaedo - ask me anything

Post by phalakros »

Joel: Commentaries are valuable for more than just “Plato acquisition.” I suggest reading (or rereading) texts alongside good philological commentaries (e.g. Barrett on Hippolytus, Dover on the Symposium, Frogs, etc.). I always try to practice a variety of reading methods. Skim large amounts quickly and without aids; read very slowly with a commentary. Venture off into neglected texts from the dark underbelly of Greek literature; return home to Homer again and again. Read for particle usage, syntax, word order, rhythm, period structure, style, register. Read from papyri. Whatever keeps you going. That’s part of the beauty of the philological tradition.

I thought you might be interested in looking at untranslated texts since you’re eager to read without help—for many later texts, you’re completely on your own. Basil of Ancyra is interesting for his medical understanding of ascetic practices. Not as fun as Plato, of course.

Translation is a tool to help gauge comprehension. Instead, I could have asked you, e.g., to explain Kebes’s weaver image. That would be fine, but I don’t see how it’s a “better exercise.”

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Re: Phaedo - ask me anything

Post by phalakros »

A few notes:

αὐτὰ ταῦτα: “these very things.” How would you write “the same things”?

ἀλλὰ γὰρ: “but nevertheless/but all the same” (a qualification looking forward to μέντοι below)

ἄλλως τε κἂν: an important idiom to master. ἄλλως τε (καί)=especially. Often introducing a condition, as here (κἄν).

ῥέοι: “for if the body is changing/in flux” (think πάντα ῥεῖ)

τὸ κατατριβόμενον: note tense. How would you write “the worn out thing”?

ἀνυφαίνοι: “weaves again” (Kebes’s whole “image” is about the ὑφάντης). Not a potential opt. (so no “should” or “might”). [If you wanted that, you could read ἂν ὑφαίνοι instead of ἀνυφαίνοι. Wrong no doubt, but it would make the optatives easier to account for].

In general (and apart from the issue of basic reading comprehension, on which you’re doing fine), it’s worth paying some attention to the syntax of the moods in this passage.

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Re: Phaedo - ask me anything

Post by jeidsath »

phalakros wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:45 pm Joel: Commentaries are valuable for more than just “Plato acquisition.” I suggest reading (or rereading) texts alongside good philological commentaries (e.g. Barrett on Hippolytus, Dover on the Symposium, Frogs, etc.).
I'm not sure how to politely point out that it is tiresome to repeat myself on this, but of course I've read commentaries before.

In regards to the specific ones you mention, I've actually read good chunks of Barrett's commentary on Hippolytus, and read Dover's commentary on the Symposium from end to end. (Barrett is wonderful. Dover is often extremely useful, but his level of understanding doesn't always match his wonderful level of applied autism. Neither are as good as Fraenkel's Agamemnon, which is worth reading simply as a series of essays.)

However, having read in both manners, with detailed commentary and also without aides, I am currently concentrating on doing it without aides. I would recommend it to anyone, at least as an experiment, once their Greek reaches the level that allows them to learn from context. You could even try it: put away your lexicons, grammars, and commentaries for a year or two. Who knows, you be surprised at what you get out of it. Certainly try giving it 6 months.
Basil of Ancyra is interesting for his medical understanding of ascetic practices. Not as fun as Plato, of course.
Sounds like a good followup to Moschus' Pratum Spirituale, which has been my bedside reading lately. But I mostly enjoy that because it reads like a collection of ghost stories.
Translation is a tool to help gauge comprehension. Instead, I could have asked you, e.g., to explain Kebes’s weaver image. That would be fine, but I don’t see how it’s a “better exercise.”
Well, I would feel that to be a poorly designed question. You generally want to ask detailed questions that have clear right or wrong answers. Have you ever looked at -- though they are often, but certainly not always, multiple choice -- comprehension questions in second language (modern language) exams? Difficulty can be adjusted nicely enough, for those that are good at it, and can bring out all sorts of flaws in comprehension.

Onto your translation notes. I appreciate your effort on my, no doubt many, errors.
αὐτὰ ταῦτα: “these very things.” How would you write “the same things”?
Hmm. I think that you will actually wish to see Smyth 1178f. Perhaps it is meant as an intensifier -- I don't know -- but I don't think we can tell from the lack of article.
ἀλλὰ γὰρ: “but nevertheless/but all the same” (a qualification looking forward to μέντοι below)
Perhaps. But I would have thought, that it looks backwards to the inversion of the argument, where previously the body was longer lasting than the garment, now the soul is longer lasting than its garment, the body. Perhaps I am wrong though.
ἄλλως τε κἂν: an important idiom to master. ἄλλως τε (καί)=especially. Often introducing a condition, as here (κἄν).
Well, ἄλλως τε is something like "and too all otherwise", though I suppose that's not quite English. The condition, I think, tends to be more about qualifying the broad "ἄλλως τε", rather than something specially highlighted, as with English "especially." I can see, looking back, that the English I wrote down didn't mean what I thought it did as I wrote. Sorry. I was confused about the force of the ἀλλ’ ἡ ψυχὴ due to my misunderstanding of ἀνυφαίνοι.
ῥέοι: “for if the body is changing/in flux” (think πάντα ῥεῖ)
Hmm. The LSJ is closer to my guess, putting this in ῥέω I.3, "wear out", giving examples of hair/fruit/corn with the usage. The image in my mind was of something flowing to exhaustion. However, now that I understand the ἀνυφαίνοι, I am closer to your view, I think.
τὸ κατατριβόμενον: note tense. How would you write “the worn out thing”?
Thank you for pointing out the tense, I was trying to fit it with a bad understanding of ἀνυφαίνοι. (Could you kindly knock it off with the "how would you write..."?)
ἀνυφαίνοι: “weaves again” (Kebes’s whole “image” is about the ὑφάντης). Not a potential opt. (so no “should” or “might”). [If you wanted that, you could read ἂν ὑφαίνοι instead of ἀνυφαίνοι. Wrong no doubt, but it would make the optatives easier to account for].
Ah, of course, "weave". I was thinking of ὑφάντης as associated with the garments he made, and the associated verb as perhaps "garment-making". So I had serious trouble with the sense of repair here. A brain fart with a common word. The sentence, and the sense of repair of a failing garment makes sense now.

And of course the actual sense and flow of the optatives now make sense, which were troubling me. I do love ανα and I am happy that she sticks around. No need for replacement. I didn't want the potential optatives, they were forced upon me.
In general (and apart from the issue of basic reading comprehension, on which you’re doing fine), it’s worth paying some attention to the syntax of the moods in this passage.
Well, I should have been more careful once I came across that κατατριβόμενον, which perhaps would have alerted me to the proper understanding of ἀνυφαίνοι. Once the ἀλλ’ ἡ ψυχὴ is seen as the distinctive contrast it is, rather than an adversive contrast, the use of the optative becomes clear. In my own view, I flubbed this rather badly.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: Phaedo - ask me anything

Post by phalakros »

Hmm. I think that you will actually wish to see Smyth 1178f. Perhaps it is meant as an intensifier -- I don't know -- but I don't think we can tell from the lack of article.
Could you clarify what you mean by this?
However, having read in both manners, with detailed commentary and also without aides, I am currently concentrating on doing it without aides. I would recommend it to anyone, at least as an experiment, once their Greek reaches the level that allows them to learn from context. You could even try it: put away your lexicons, grammars, and commentaries for a year or two. Who knows, you be surprised at what you get out of it. Certainly try giving it 6 months.
As I mentioned, I often read this way (not just for a year or two) and find it productive, so long as it’s matched by close reading.

As for the rest, perhaps someone else has the patience, and too all otherwise with your dismissiveness. Enough from me.

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