"things" and other things
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"things" and other things
M.p.478
"thing" can be rendered by "χρημα" or by a neuter adjective or demonstrative without noun.
Unit 22 II.2, p 188 "πωσ υμιν τα αληθη λεχω,..." is rendered in the Key by "How shall I tell you the true details..."
Where does "details" come from? I would have translated with "the true things" - not very elegant for sure. I have seen similar translations of "thing(s)" elsewhere in M, but I can't find them again. So it seems that "thing" can mean whatever the translator wants. But what about the native Greek - how does he get "details" out of "τα αληθη"?
Thanks to all.
"thing" can be rendered by "χρημα" or by a neuter adjective or demonstrative without noun.
Unit 22 II.2, p 188 "πωσ υμιν τα αληθη λεχω,..." is rendered in the Key by "How shall I tell you the true details..."
Where does "details" come from? I would have translated with "the true things" - not very elegant for sure. I have seen similar translations of "thing(s)" elsewhere in M, but I can't find them again. So it seems that "thing" can mean whatever the translator wants. But what about the native Greek - how does he get "details" out of "τα αληθη"?
Thanks to all.
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Re: "things" and other things
The sentence continues “ἐπεὶ δεινά ἐστιν ἅ με δεῖ ἀγγεῖλαι;“. Since the things which you have to report to me are terrible.
So the sense of the whole sentence taking account of both parts must be “how can I (bear) to tell the whole truth (ie all the gory details) since what I have to report is so awful. “ translating as “the true things“ shifts the meaning onto the truth of the account when clearly the last part of the sentence implies that the question is about the details of a dreadful event not the veracity of the account. Translating word for word rather than trying to work out the sense is causing you difficulty.
Edited to change you to I.
Incidentally It’s λέξω not λεχω.
χρῆμα, -ατος, n. thing, matter; (pl.) property, money is often used as a concrete thing although it can be used “ generally, thing, matter, affair, esp. in Ep. and Ion” LSJ.
I hope this makes sense it’s late and I am tired.
So the sense of the whole sentence taking account of both parts must be “how can I (bear) to tell the whole truth (ie all the gory details) since what I have to report is so awful. “ translating as “the true things“ shifts the meaning onto the truth of the account when clearly the last part of the sentence implies that the question is about the details of a dreadful event not the veracity of the account. Translating word for word rather than trying to work out the sense is causing you difficulty.
Edited to change you to I.
Incidentally It’s λέξω not λεχω.
χρῆμα, -ατος, n. thing, matter; (pl.) property, money is often used as a concrete thing although it can be used “ generally, thing, matter, affair, esp. in Ep. and Ion” LSJ.
I hope this makes sense it’s late and I am tired.
Last edited by seneca2008 on Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.
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Re: "things" and other things
I'm not sure what you mean by that. But in any case, a notable feature of classical Greek is the liberal use of substantivizing neuter plural phrases like τὰ ἀληθῆ. We don't do this in English, and the translator must come up with her best translation based on the context and on the overall style she is trying to convey in her translation (literal, literary, etc.). As another example, in Aristotle τὰ ὄντα is variously translated as 'things', 'beings', etc. - no translation here will satisfy every reader, and it's a perfect example of why we want to read in the original Greek.So it seems that "thing" can mean whatever the translator wants.
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Re: "things" and other things
In other words, it's not "whatever the translator wants" but that the translator is endeavoring to clarify from context to what the neuter plural substantive is referring. It has less to do with the Greek and more to do with the translator's sense of the English, which may vary widely. χρῆμα is only used very rarely in a context which would justify the rendering "thing."RandyGibbons wrote: ↑Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:33 pmI'm not sure what you mean by that. But in any case, a notable feature of classical Greek is the liberal use of substantivizing neuter plural phrases like τὰ ἀληθῆ. We don't do this in English, and the translator must come up with her best translation based on the context and on the overall style she is trying to convey in her translation (literal, literary, etc.). As another example, in Aristotle τὰ ὄντα is variously translated as 'things', 'beings', etc. - no translation here will satisfy every reader, and it's a perfect example of why we want to read in the original Greek.So it seems that "thing" can mean whatever the translator wants.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Cuncta mortalia incerta...
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Re: "things" and other things
That is what I was trying in a compressed way last night. It is best avoided by a beginner outside it’s pl use of money and property.χρῆμα is only used very rarely in a context which would justify the rendering "thing."
The OP hasn’t grasped that translating into English does not involve a one to one mapping of a Greek word onto an English word and that the results of one translation are not reversible in all other circumstances. This why I have always counselled him to decide what he thinks a sentence means before translating. The rush to translate causes this sort of difficulty.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.
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Re: "things" and other things
Thank you so much, and I hope you had a good night's sleep.seneca2008 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:23 am The sentence continues “ἐπεὶ δεινά ἐστιν ἅ με δεῖ ἀγγεῖλαι;“. Since the things which you have to report to me are terrible.
So the sense of the whole sentence taking account of both parts must be “how can you (bear) to tell me the whole truth (ie all the gory details) since what you have to report is so awful. “ translating as “the true things“ shifts the meaning onto the truth of the account when clearly the last part of the sentence implies that the question is about the details of a dreadful event not the veracity of the account. Translating word for word rather than trying to work out the sense is causing you difficulty.
Incidentally It’s λέξω not λεχω.
χρῆμα, -ατος, n. thing, matter; (pl.) property, money is often used as a concrete thing although it can be used “ generally, thing, matter, affair, esp. in Ep. and Ion” LSJ.
I hope this makes sense it’s late and I am tired.
re: χ -ξ - I stand corrected -
It was not my translation, but M's. The translation in Ms KEY (p.36) is " How shall I tell you the true details, when what I must report is terrible."
In fact, I had no great difficulty translating, after I (slowly) realized that "με δει αγγειλαι" means "I must report", "με" being the accusative subject of the infinitive (I think...). My problem was with the word "details" instead of "things".
From your and other respondents' reply, I now have a better understanding the relationship between χρεμα and thing. I just wish M would have explained all that.
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Re: "things" and other things
Yes that’s correct and I was half asleep. I am glad you weren’t misled.Asterisk1234 wrote: after I (slowly) realized that "με δει αγγειλαι" means "I must report", "με"
Don’t worry over much about this. I think Mastronade wrote his book for the classroom rather than self study so a teacher would explain all this. In the absence of a teacher you have to ask here. It would be an impossible task to anticipate every question someone might have.
Confusion on χρῆμα is common - at least when I started I used to wonder about it. Getting things wrong is fine and as you see you are not the only one.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.
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Re: "things" and other things
Thanks - that really helped.RandyGibbons wrote: ↑Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:33 pmI'm not sure what you mean by that. But in any case, a notable feature of classical Greek is the liberal use of substantivizing neuter plural phrases like τὰ ἀληθῆ. We don't do this in English, and the translator must come up with her best translation based on the context and on the overall style she is trying to convey in her translation (literal, literary, etc.). As another example, in Aristotle τὰ ὄντα is variously translated as 'things', 'beings', etc. - no translation here will satisfy every reader, and it's a perfect example of why we want to read in the original Greek.So it seems that "thing" can mean whatever the translator wants.
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Re: "things" and other things
Thanks - that helped too.Barry Hofstetter wrote: ↑Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:00 pmIn other words, it's not "whatever the translator wants" but that the translator is endeavoring to clarify from context to what the neuter plural substantive is referring. It has less to do with the Greek and more to do with the translator's sense of the English, which may vary widely. χρῆμα is only used very rarely in a context which would justify the rendering "thing."RandyGibbons wrote: ↑Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:33 pmI'm not sure what you mean by that. But in any case, a notable feature of classical Greek is the liberal use of substantivizing neuter plural phrases like τὰ ἀληθῆ. We don't do this in English, and the translator must come up with her best translation based on the context and on the overall style she is trying to convey in her translation (literal, literary, etc.). As another example, in Aristotle τὰ ὄντα is variously translated as 'things', 'beings', etc. - no translation here will satisfy every reader, and it's a perfect example of why we want to read in the original Greek.So it seems that "thing" can mean whatever the translator wants.
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Re: "things" and other things
You are my teacher - along with all other respondents.seneca2008 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:50 pmIn the absence of a teacher...Asterisk1234 wrote: after I (slowly) realized that "με δει αγγειλαι" means "I must report", "με"
I'm 81 and very slow at learning, I've been on M for 2.5 years and I'm only on Unit 22. Nevertheless, I enjoy the exercises and the process of studying as long as I detect some progress. I would have given up long ago without everybody's help.
Many thanks to all.
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Re: "things" and other things
I hope others are inspired to take up Greek by your example. Its best to go slowly and carefully revising what you have learned. Keep up the good work and well done. Mastronarde has written an excellent book but it is by no means easy. I hope you are keeping safe in these difficult times.Asterisk1234 wrote:I'm 81 and very slow at learning, I've been on M for 2.5 years and I'm only on Unit 22. Nevertheless, I enjoy the exercises and the process of studying as long as I detect some progress. I would have given up long ago without everybody's help.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.
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Re: "things" and other things
I'm inspired. I started Sahidic Coptic sometime ago, but put it aside for other concerns. Now to start again! Anyone want to join me?seneca2008 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:04 amI hope others are inspired to take up Greek by your example. Its best to go slowly and carefully revising what you have learned. Keep up the good work and well done. Mastronarde has written an excellent book but it is by no means easy. I hope you are keeping safe in these difficult times.Asterisk1234 wrote:I'm 81 and very slow at learning, I've been on M for 2.5 years and I'm only on Unit 22. Nevertheless, I enjoy the exercises and the process of studying as long as I detect some progress. I would have given up long ago without everybody's help.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Cuncta mortalia incerta...
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Re: "things" and other things
Are you on the GlyphStudy mailing list, Barry? There's been a group working through Lambdin's Introduction to Sahidic Coptic since 2017 and I think they're nearly on the last chapter, so there might be another group starting up soon if you're interested.Barry Hofstetter wrote: ↑Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:17 pm I'm inspired. I started Sahidic Coptic sometime ago, but put it aside for other concerns. Now to start again! Anyone want to join me?
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Re: "things" and other things
That new Coptic section at GlyphStudy has just been confirmed by the way. I've posted the email I got from the mod, Karen (who is absolutely lovely), below in case anyone fancies it. All GlyphStudy sections work by submitting work every week or couple of weeks that a mod then collates into a pdf. There's no teacher but the community on the list is always keen to answer a question. And it's free, in case that's not clear from the email.
Sahidic Coptic (Lambdin) signup
Show
SAHIDIC COPTIC 2020 SECTION STARTING May 4, 2020
No previous language experience is required for this section and beginners are welcome to join us. If, however, you
have previously studied Middle Egyptian, you will find much that is familiar in Coptic!
Coptic was the final form of the Ancient Egyptian language, and a direct descendent of the language spoken by the Pharaohs.
The Egyptian language started being written using the Coptic alphabet (a modified form of the Greek alphabet) in the 1st century AD, and it existed as a spoken language until about the 17th century.
Today it is still used as a liturgical language by the Coptic Church, and has a rich heritage of literature which this study section will equip us to read.
In addition to the Coptic translation of the Bible there is a wealth of other literature, amongst which are philosophical and religious works, biographies, letters and other mementoes of people’s everyday lives, and works of fiction featuring tales of travel and adventure!
We will be studying “Sahidic” Coptic: the Upper Egyptian “literary” dialect of Coptic, in which the classic Coptic literature is written, as well as the Gospel of Thomas and the rest of the Nag Hammadi library.
We will be using Introduction to Sahidic Coptic by Thomas O. Lambdin, as our textbook and you will need to purchase a copy in order to participate.
It can be purchased from Amazon and costs about $38 in the US, and £42 in the UK. We will take about two years to complete the course.
SIGN ME UP!
REQUIREMENTS:
Send an email to Karen at kmotc@swbell.net
with both your first and last name, and indicate that you want the Coptic20 section. We are announcing multiple sections at the moment and I need the section detail.
Hope to have you studying Coptic with us soon!
Best,
your mod,
Karen
No previous language experience is required for this section and beginners are welcome to join us. If, however, you
have previously studied Middle Egyptian, you will find much that is familiar in Coptic!
Coptic was the final form of the Ancient Egyptian language, and a direct descendent of the language spoken by the Pharaohs.
The Egyptian language started being written using the Coptic alphabet (a modified form of the Greek alphabet) in the 1st century AD, and it existed as a spoken language until about the 17th century.
Today it is still used as a liturgical language by the Coptic Church, and has a rich heritage of literature which this study section will equip us to read.
In addition to the Coptic translation of the Bible there is a wealth of other literature, amongst which are philosophical and religious works, biographies, letters and other mementoes of people’s everyday lives, and works of fiction featuring tales of travel and adventure!
We will be studying “Sahidic” Coptic: the Upper Egyptian “literary” dialect of Coptic, in which the classic Coptic literature is written, as well as the Gospel of Thomas and the rest of the Nag Hammadi library.
We will be using Introduction to Sahidic Coptic by Thomas O. Lambdin, as our textbook and you will need to purchase a copy in order to participate.
It can be purchased from Amazon and costs about $38 in the US, and £42 in the UK. We will take about two years to complete the course.
SIGN ME UP!
REQUIREMENTS:
Send an email to Karen at kmotc@swbell.net
with both your first and last name, and indicate that you want the Coptic20 section. We are announcing multiple sections at the moment and I need the section detail.
Hope to have you studying Coptic with us soon!
Best,
your mod,
Karen
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Re: "things" and other things
Well, since I now have no excuse, I don't know whether to thank you or complain...seanjonesbw wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:06 am That new Coptic section at GlyphStudy has just been confirmed by the way. I've posted the email I got from the mod, Karen (who is absolutely lovely), below in case anyone fancies it. All GlyphStudy sections work by submitting work every week or couple of weeks that a mod then collates into a pdf. There's no teacher but the community on the list is always keen to answer a question. And it's free, in case that's not clear from the email.
Seriously, though, this is just the kind of thing I've been looking for, so πολλήν σοι χάριν ἔχω.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Cuncta mortalia incerta...
Cuncta mortalia incerta...
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Re: "things" and other things
You're welcome/I'm so sorry! I'm following one of the gentle paced Middle Egyptian sections at the moment so you may see me pop up on the list asking stupid questions. Good luck!
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Re: "things" and other things
So, all signed up, and this is the first week of formal study. Now I can say things like:seanjonesbw wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:49 pm You're welcome/I'm so sorry! I'm following one of the gentle paced Middle Egyptian sections at the moment so you may see me pop up on the list asking stupid questions. Good luck!
ⲡⲣⲱⲙⲉ ϩⲓ ⲧⲉϩⲏⲓ, "The man is on the road."
Thanks again putting me on to this group!
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Cuncta mortalia incerta...
Cuncta mortalia incerta...
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Re: "things" and other things
Glad you're enjoying it! The GlyphStudy gang are a really nice bunch.
In exchange for your beginner's Coptic translation of the title of Jack Kerouac's seminal beat novel, I return the favour in beginner's Middle Egyptian:
iw s ḥr wꜣt
In exchange for your beginner's Coptic translation of the title of Jack Kerouac's seminal beat novel, I return the favour in beginner's Middle Egyptian:
iw s ḥr wꜣt