Modern Greek: Would it help?

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jeidsath
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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

Post by jeidsath »

Evangelos96 wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:44 pm Plato could just as well have said, Ἐνταῦθα...βιωτὸν ἀνθρώπῳ but by structuring it the way he does, Ἐνταῦθα τοῦ βίου...βιωτὸν ἀνθρώπῳ, he plays on the word βίος to produce an anadiplosis.

If we were to translate the passage seeking to preserve the rhetorical effect in English, we could say something like:

"In this of all lives, life is truly to be found."
βίου is a noun in the genitive, βιωτόν an adjective in the nominative. Plus, they echo the expression βίος βιωτός, so its a bit more subtle.
I don't believe that you understand this. As I mentioned before, you are being confused by βίος οὐ βιωτός from the Apology. Note the negative there, which you should expect here, were it parallel to that expression. The negative is usual, because it actually means something closer to "a live unlived," not "the worthwhile life."

"ἐνταῦθα τοῦ βίου" is the same as "ἐνταῦθα τοῦ οὐρανοῦ" or "ἐνταῦθα τῆς ἠπείρου". Here at this point in the sky, here at this point on land. So Plato means "here at this point in life".

Now the whole phrase with "...βιωτὸν ἀνθρώπῳ θεωμένῳ αὐτὸ τὸ καλόν" should be obvious. "Here in life it is something really lived for a man when he is beholding the beautiful itself."
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Evangelos96
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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

Post by Evangelos96 »

jeidsath wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:47 pm "Here in life it is something really lived for a man when he is beholding the beautiful itself."
Yes, I'm not disagreeing with you. I just pointed out that the repetition of life makes for a nice sentence. There were a number of things he could have said:

ἐνταῦθα τοῦ βίου...τερπνὸν ἀνθρώπω
ἐνταῦθα τοῦ βίου...ἡδὺ ἀνθρώπῳ

or even

ἐνταῦθα τοῦ βίου...εὐδαίμων ὁ θεώμενος αὐτὸ τὸ καλόν
ἐνταῦθα τοῦ βίου...μακάριος ὁ θεώμενος αὐτὸ τὸ καλόν

If there is a βίος οὐ βιωτός that presupposes that there must also be a βίος βιωτός. And where is this βίος to be found according to Diotima? Ἐνταῦθα!
Last edited by Evangelos96 on Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

Post by seneca2008 »

Evangelos96 wrote:As for Chaucer, I disagree. If someone growing up today was only ever exposed to modern English, he would have no idea what "thou" or "wherefore" meant.
Evangelos96 wrote:Yet no one says "thou art" anymore in conversation because it has come to be associated with a certain register of language that is not the colloquial or everyday.
You have clearly never been to the north of England! She would certainly know "thou" and many other archaic expressions.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

Post by Evangelos96 »

Lol. Well yes, dialectically a whole bunch of forms and pronunciations survive. I was talking about Standard English.

In dialectical Greek too, you get the same thing: the Pontians still use the infinitive, the Cypriots say ὄπωπα instead of εἶδα, the Cretans say εἷς instead of ἕνας, the Peloponnesians say τίνος, the Southern Italians have -ουσι instead of -ουν, etc etc
Last edited by Evangelos96 on Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

Post by seneca2008 »

Evangelos96 wrote:Lol. Well yes, dialectically a whole bunch of forms and pronunciations survive. I was talking about Standard English.
I think in England at least only the educated speak "standard" English and one would expect them to understand some archaic forms. But even the educated employ many different registers. Of course 'standard" is a movable feast. I only intervened to caution against making generalisations about what people may understand.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

Post by Evangelos96 »

The corpus of Early English Correspondence which covers the years 1400 to 1800 shows a clear decline in the use of "thou" in favour of "you", overtaking it definitively around 1750. So it's not a generalization to say that for the great majority of English speakers today, "thou" belongs to an archaic or poetic register. Modern speakers do not acquire it colloquially but through literature and established expressions. Same with Greek.

In Homer's time, ὄλβιος meant "happy" and we can suppose that that's the form that was current in speech. By Attic times, ὄλβιος has become archaic, and the current term for it was εὐδαίμων. In Modern Greek, εὐδαίμων has become poetic, and the usual word for "happy" is χαρούμενος.
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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

Post by seneca2008 »

I think you are drawing too firm conclusions from a partial reading of the evidence.

Modern speakers do acquire the use of "thou" colloquially in certain areas of England. I am not sure I have ever seen the phrase "who art in Heaven" written down but it seems natural to me not poetic nor consciously archaising . But none of this is scientific and I dont think it is helpful to the general argument.

I think where you completely sabotage your argument is by talking about "In Homer's time". We can talk about the language of Homer but its pretty clear that it is a language with forms from many different time periods and was never ever spoken by anyone.

Turning to ὄλβιος we can see from LSJ that it was used in Tragedy as well as in Herodotus. I dont know whether this usage was regarded as archaising but I have never seen any evidence to suggest it was.
ὄλβιος , ον Tz.H.1.600, but usu. α, ον, as Pi.O.13.4, E.Alc.452 (lyr.), Or.1338 : (ὄλβος) :
I. of persons, happy, blest, esp. with reference to worldly goods, “οἶκον . . ἔναιον ὄλβιος ἀφνειόν” Od.17.420, cf. Il.24.543 (nowhere else in Il.), etc. ; “εὐδαίμων τε καὶ ὄ.” Hes.Op.826 ; “χρήμασι ὄ.” Hdt.8.75 ; “μέγα ὄλβιος” Id.6.24 ; “Πριάμου τοῦ μέγ᾽ ὀλβίου” E.Hec.493 ; “τοῖς ὀλβίοις” A.Ag.941 ; “ὄ. δῶμα” Pi.N.9.3 ; “τὰν ὀλβίαν Κόρινθον” Id.O.13.4 ; also of more than mere outward prosperity, Hdt.1.30-2.
2. generally, happy, blessed, “ὄλβιον ξάνθαν ἐλάτηρα πώλων” Alc.Supp.8.14 ; “ὄλβιε Ζεῦ” A.Supp.526 (lyr.) ; “Διὶ ὀ. εὐχαριστήριον” CIG2017 (Thrac. Chers.), cf. JHS25.56 (Cyzic.); “ὄ. ὅστις ἰδών κτλ.” Pi.Fr.137.1, cf. Emp.132, S.El.160 (lyr.), etc.: c. gen., “ὄλβιαι ὀρχηθμοῦ” AP9.189 ; “ὄλβιε καὶ ζωῆς, ὄλβιε καὶ θανάτου” Epigr.Gr.243.15 (Pergam.).
II. of things, used by Hom. (only in Od.) always in neut. pl., θεοὶ δέ τοι ὄ. δοῖεν may they give thee rich gifts, Od.8.413 ; φίλα δῶρα, τά μοι θεοὶ . . ὄ. ποιήσειαν may they make them prosperous, 13.42 (also as Adv., “τοῖσιν θεοὶ ὄ. δοῖεν ζωέμεναι” happily, 7.148) ; so in Hdt., “πάντα μεγάλα . . καὶ ὄ.” 1.30 ; εἴπας πολλὰ καὶ ὄ. ib.31 ; ταῦτα τὰ -ώτατά σφι νενόμισται ib.216. Adv. “-ίως” S.OC1720 (lyr.) : irreg. Sup. ὄλβιστος, η, ον, Call.Lav.Pall.117, AP7.164 (Antip. Sid.), 1 (Alc. Mess.), 12.56 (Mel.), etc. : regul. Comp. and Sup. ὀλβιώτερος, ὀλβιώτατος, Hdt.1.32,30,216.—Poet. word, rare in Att. Prose, as Pl.Prt.337d (Sup.), Plu.2.58e, and Com., as Ar.Ec.1131.
As to εὐδαίμων LSJ has
εὐδαίμ-ων , ον, gen. ονος,
A.blessed with a good genius: hence, fortunate, τάων εὐδαίμων τε καὶ ὄλβιος happy in respect to them (the days), Hes.Op.826; “εὐ. καὶ ὄλβιος” Thgn.1013; “εὐ. καὶ ὑμνητός” Pi.P.10.22: freq. in Trag., A.Pr.647, Pers.768, S.Ant.582, etc.: c. gen. rei, happy in or on account of . . , Hes. l.c.; εὐ. τοῦ τρόπου Pl.Phd.58e; ironically, εὐ. εἶ, ὅτι οἴει . . Id.R.422e; τὸ εὔδαιμον, = εὐδαιμονία, Th.2.43. Adv. -“μόνως” E.Or.601, Ar.Pl.802, Arist.Pol. 1281a2, etc.: Comp. -έστερον“, διάγοντες” X.An.3.1.43: Sup., “πόλις -έστατα διάξει” Pl.Lg.710b.
2. of outward prosperity, wealthy, “οἱ εὐδαίμονες αὐτῶν” Hdt.1.133, cf. 196,5.8, Th.1.6, etc.; “ἐν πολλοῖς χρήμασιν εὐδαίμονες ὄντες” Lys.32.17; “οἱ πλούσιοι καὶ εὐ.” Pl.R.406c; “οἰκία μεγάλη τε καὶ εὐ.” Id.Prt.316b; “αἱ Ἀθῆναι μεγάλαι τε καὶ εὐδαίμονες” Hdt.8.111; “Εὐβοίῃ, νήσῳ μεγάλῃ τε καὶ εὐ.” Id.5.31; “Κυράνα” Pi. P.4.276, etc.; πόλις εὐ. Gorg.Fr.10 D.; Ἀραβία εὐ. Peripl. MRubr.26; γῆ ἀρόσαι οὐκ εὐ. Philostr.Im.2.24; opp. “εὐτυχής, ὄλβου δ᾽ ἐπιρρυέντος εὐτυχέστερος ἄλλου γένοιτ᾽ ἂν ἄλλος, εὐδαίμων δ᾽ ἂν οὔ” E.Med. 1230.
3. truly happy, “βίος” Pl.Phlb.11d; ὁ εὖ ζῶν μακάριός τε καὶ εὐ. Id.R.354a, cf. 580b (Sup.), Arist.EN1098b21, etc.
We can see a use from Hesiod onwards. Indeed in the quotation I have underlined it occurs with ὄλβιος in the Theogony. So there seems to me considerable temporal overlap in the use of these words. But perhaps more importantly although the meaning of the two words is semantically close they are used in different ways in the texts we have.

No one doubts that words change their meaning sometimes to mean the opposite of what they once signified or they replace other words over time. But I think you are mixing too many things up in your argument.

Does Modern Greek help in learning Ancient Greek? No one can gainsay those who said they found it helpful. Is it worth learning modern greek in order to read Ancient Greek I doubt it. is it worth learning modern greek? Of course it is ! But in its own right.

For anyone interested in the history of the Greek language I recommend this:
Egbert J. Bakker, A Companion to the Ancient Greek Language. Blackwell Companions to the Ancient World. Literature and Culture. Chichester/Malden, MA: Wiley-Blackwell, 2010. xxxix, 657. ISBN 9781405153263 $199.95.
A review is here https://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2011/2011.05.07 where attention is drawn to " why LSJ, that withered backbone of our reading—and thus interpretive—experience, is so “muddled and treacherous” (p. 132)". :P
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

Post by Evangelos96 »

According to the TLG, ὄλβιος is used by Homer, Hesiod, the lyric poet Bacchylides, the tragedians Sophocles and Euripides, and the Christian archaizing poets Gregory Nazianzenus, Didymus the Blind, and Christopher of Mytilene. Herodotus uses ὄλβιος once when quoting an oracle (Book 5, 92e), and Plato uses it once when quoting a couplet attributed to Solon (Lysis 212e).

By contrast, εὐδαίμων occurs not only in the tragedians, but also dozens of times in the prose works of Aristotle, Plato, Demosthenes, Thucydides, and countless later authors.

Hesychius' lexicon glosses ὄλβιος as "πλούσιος, εὐδαίμων, μακάριος" and Apollonius' Homeric lexicon glosses it as "εὐδαίμων καὶ μακάριος." Neither lexicon glosses εὐδαίμων.

So the distribution clearly indicates that ὄλβιος was an archaic word associated to the high poetic register. If it wasn't, there would be no need to define it in a dictionary.

Homeric Greek is a blend of different dialectical forms, mostly old Ionic and Aeolic. But it's a very complicated question whether any one spoke like that or not in the 9th century BC.

If you compare Homeric, on the one hand, to Attic and, on the other, to the language in the Linear B tablets, you will see that Homeric will agree substantially with Mycenaean (e.g. lexically, using words like φάσγανον for sword, as well as grammatically, such as the use of the ablative/locative suffix -ιφι). This suggests that it is highly probable that the form of language we get in Homer dates all the way back to the depths of the Bronze Age. It is even possible that ὄλβιος was already archaic when Homer used it.

All this to say that languages can have different registers and different words or grammar associated to them. Phrases like "who art in heaven" go back to the King James Bible and, through that, all the way back to Middle English. It's a specific type of English used in contexts of prayer, not everyday conversation.

Honestly, if you want to ask your friend his opinion on something, would you say, "Tell thou me who art wise in such matters what it is that thou thinkest" or "Tell me what you think since you know a lot about these things"?

Thank you for the reference. I also highly recommend the book The Development of Greek and the New Testament by Chrys C. Caragounis:

http://bakerpublishinggroup.com/books/t ... ent/279710

Over the course of several hundreds of pages and quotes from ancient, medieval, and modern Greek texts, the author demonstrates that modern Greek is essentially just a simplified form of Attic, not a different language like Italian is to Latin. Many, if not all the changes that separate the two (grammatical, semantic, syntactic) go back to Alexander the Great's time and are extremely old.

As such, I think where modern Greek (demotic and katharevousa) can help in learning Ancient Greek is by providing a basic foundation on which to build one's knowledge and achieve fluency in the language, specifically regarding pronunciation. I also agree that the LSJ dictionary has its limits, and that's also an area in which modern Greek can help. It's one thing to read the definition of a word in a book, but it's quite another to use it in conversation.

Given all of this, I find that learning straight Attic to read the tragedians and Plato is like a Chinese student with no prior knowledge in English being taught Elizabethan to read Shakespeare. Undoubtedly it can be done, but is it ideal?
Last edited by Evangelos96 on Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

Post by seneca2008 »

Thanks for the Hesychius' lexicon quotation. I know that εὐδαίμων is a word that appears in Aristophanes and one might suppose therefore that it is a word from an ordinary register of speech. It may of course be that ὄλβιος was always and only used in a high literary register. I dont think you have given any evidence that ὄλβιος was a word used in an ordinary register in "homeric times" whenever that might have been. But it does seem to me that there is something rather circular about the argument here. I am not an expert on any of this so I will just leave it there.

I think your analogy of "Elizabethan English" is rather misleading. Although there are some difficulties with vocabulary to be found in Shakespeare the syntax is not hard to follow and is essentially the same as modern English. This is hardly surprising given the seminal influence Shakespeare had on the development of modern English. I would say that the differences between modern greek and say the tragedians was much greater than between modern English and Shakespeare. But most importantly no-one who learns Ancient Greek starts by reading Sophocles. After an introduction and survey of the language I read Lysias 1 and some Euripides. Homer as an undergraduate didnt seem all that difficult except for the never ending vocabulary. The most difficult thing about the Tragedians (aside from Choruses which can be tricky and some notorious textual problems) is understanding what they are saying rather than following the syntax. the same could be said of Plato. It seems to me inconceivable that anyone should be encouraged in the study of the modern language as a means of facilitating the study of Ancient Greek. I am sure that knowledge of modern greek brings all kinds of advantages but as a pedagogic route for non-native greek speakers it seems misconceived.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Amen to everything Seneca said. Shakespeare, BTW, is considered "Early Modern English."

https://public.oed.com/blog/early-moder ... -overview/

A modern Greek speaker has a head start in learning ancient Greek, but it levels out after a while, and being a speaker of native Greek allows no more advantage to understanding Plato or Homer than it does, for example, for an English or German speaker.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter

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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

Post by jeidsath »

I would think that the use of ολβιος by Herodotus would tend to indicate that the word had some genuine spoken currency outside of Homer and tragedy. It really is a decent example of language variation, I think, despite Seneca's objection.

Of course, the difference is as likely to be regional as chronological. Did this example come from Teodorson?
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

Post by Evangelos96 »

Barry Hofstetter wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:17 am A modern Greek speaker has a head start in learning ancient Greek, but it levels out after a while, and being a speaker of native Greek allows no more advantage to understanding Plato or Homer than it does, for example, for an English or German speaker.
Here are two examples of how Modern Greek can illuminate and bring alive an ancient usage.

1- The word φθάνω in classical times chiefly meant "to anticipate" or "to reach something before someone else." It could also mean "to have enough time to do something." Occasionally, it was also used in the sense of "to arrive," a usage which came to predominate in Hellenistic times.

In modern Greek, φθάνω primarily means to "arrive." However, it also retains its older senses as can be seen in the following sentences:

σ'ἔφθασα! = I've overtaken you! I've reached you!

σὲ πρόφθασα = I beat you to it

δὲν πρόφθασα = I didn't have enough time

ἔφθασε = it was sufficient

Τhus, a difficult polysemic verb becomes easily comprehensible through Modern Greek.

2- The aorist has a variety of uses in ancient Greek. One, however, which might seem rather odd to an English speaker is the use of the aorist where one would expect the future.

For instance, in Euripides' Alcestis (line 386), King Admetos cries out to his dying wife:

ἀπωλόμην ἄρ', εἴ με δὴ λείψεις γύναι

Oh my wife, I am lost (lit. I have perished) if you leave me!

A similar usage employing the infrequent future perfect occurs in Aristophanes' Wealth (line 1027) where a character exclaims:

τί γὰρ ποιήσει; φράζε καὶ πεπράξεται

What shall he do? Say it and it will have been done.

This obscure construction becomes crystal clear once you put it in Modern Greek context. For example, it is not rare to hear a waiter in a restaurant telling his patrons, "Ἔφθασα!" What he means is not "Here I am!" but rather "I'm as good as there" or "I'll be right there." The usage abounds in popular usage. Another example: "ἐτοιμάσου καὶ φύγαμε" = "get your things together and we're out of here."

Given that the ancient Greek texts preserve only a fragment of what was said orally, they constitute but a limited cross-section of the language. There are plenty of words or usages in the LSJ which are scantily attested owing merely to chance and the vicissitudes of textual transmission. The primary value of Modern Greek is to supply the missing context, something which English or German obviously cannot do.
Last edited by Evangelos96 on Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:58 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

Post by Evangelos96 »

I found the occurrence in Herodotus from the online Thesaurus Linguae Graecae. Here it is in Perseus:

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/te ... 99.01.0125

Oracles tended to be archaic in style generally. In Latin, there was the Carmen Saliare, which was so archaic a number of authors comment on how difficult it was even for the priests to understand.

EDIT

So it turns out Herodotus does use ὄλβιος two other times, but in these instances it's always in the sense of "wealthy" not "happy." So you're right that it could be an old expression that lingered in Ionic.
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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

Post by jeidsath »

Your TLG search made me think that my memory must be deficient, but looking up Herodotus, it seems that it was your search that had the problem, not my memory. Read the episode of Solon and Croesus. Herodotus uses ολβιος a number of times there, and it is directly contrasted with wealth, as something different. I see that he also uses ευδαιμων.
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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

Post by Evangelos96 »

jeidsath wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:10 pm Your TLG search made me think that my memory must be deficient, but looking up Herodotus, it seems that it was your search that had the problem, not my memory. Read the episode of Solon and Croesus. Herodotus uses ολβιος a number of times there, and it is directly contrasted with wealth, as something different. I see that he also uses ευδαιμων.
οὐ γάρ τι ὁ μέγα πλούσιος μᾶλλον τοῦ ἐπ᾽ ἡμέρην ἔχοντος ὀλβιώτερος ἐστί, εἰ μή οἱ τύχη ἐπίσποιτο πάντα καλὰ ἔχοντα εὖ τελευτῆσαὶ τὸν βίον. πολλοὶ μὲν γὰρ ζάπλουτοι ἀνθρώπων ἀνόλβιοι εἰσί, πολλοὶ δὲ μετρίως ἔχοντες βίου εὐτυχέες. ὁ μὲν δὴ μέγα πλούσιος ἀνόλβιος δὲ δυοῖσι προέχει τοῦ εὐτυχέος μοῦνον, οὗτος δὲ τοῦ πλουσίου καὶ ἀνόλβου πολλοῖσι.

-Histories 1.32

Fair enough, but given that ὄλβιος also meant "wealthy" it could be that Solon is engaging in a play on words: "many think they are rich (πλούσιοι, ζάπλουτοι), when in fact they are poor (ἀνόλβιοι)"

A similar contrast is used on the Sermon on the Mount:

μακάριοι οἱ πτωχοὶ τῷ πνεύματι, ὅτι αὐτῶν ἐστιν ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν (Matthew 5:3)

Those who are poor are actually rich.

EDIT

So it could be that the proper meaning of ὄλβιος is actually "wealthy, prosperous" and this was extended metaphorically to mean "happy" while still retaining its material connotations. By contrast, εὐδαίμων had more spiritual connotations.
Last edited by Evangelos96 on Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:18 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

Post by jeidsath »

If you continue on just a few more sentences, you will find Solon/Herodotus' definition of ολβιος. It is not used here as a synonym of πλουτος.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

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I think the best equivalent to ὄλβιος in English is "wealthy." The word is derived from "well" and as late as Shakepeare "wealth" meant "well-being, happiness."

So we could translate Solon's sentiment thus: "Many are those who are exceedingly rich, and yet they are not wealthy" where wealthy would span the material-immaterial dimension.
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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

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You still haven't read the entire section, I see.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

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Evangelos96 wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:16 am
Here are two examples of how Modern Greek can illuminate and bring alive an ancient usage.

1- The word φθάνω in classical times chiefly meant "to anticipate" or "to reach something before someone else." It could also mean "to have enough time to do something." Occasionally, it was also used in the sense of "to arrive," a usage which came to predominate in Hellenistic times.

In modern Greek, φθάνω primarily means to "arrive." However, it also retains its older senses as can be seen in the following sentences:

σ'ἔφθασα! = I've overtaken you! I've reached you!

σὲ πρόφθασα = I beat you to it

δὲν πρόφθασα = I didn't have enough time

ἔφθασε = it was sufficient

Τhus, a difficult polysemic verb becomes easily comprehensible through Modern Greek.
Why, yes, I can see how a modern Greek speaker could be helped by this when learning ancient Greek. But once the non-modern Greek speaker has learned the verb, he has just as much access to the ancient usage as the modern Greek speaker. Maybe it was a little harder to learn, maybe not, but there it is.
2- The aorist has a variety of uses in ancient Greek. One, however, which might seem rather odd to an English speaker is the use of the aorist where one would expect the future.

For instance, in Euripides' Alcestis (line 386), King Admetos cries out to his dying wife:

ἀπωλόμην ἄρ', εἴ με δὴ λείψεις γύναι

Oh my wife, I am lost (lit. I have perished) if you leave me!

A similar usage employing the infrequent future perfect occurs in Aristophanes' Wealth (line 1027) where a character exclaims:

τί γὰρ ποιήσει; φράζε καὶ πεπράξεται

What shall he do? Say it and it will have been done.

This obscure construction becomes crystal clear once you put it in Modern Greek context. For example, it is not rare to hear a waiter in a restaurant telling his patrons, "Ἔφθασα!" What he means is not "Here I am!" but rather "I'm as good as there" or "I'll be right there." The usage abounds in popular usage. Another example: "ἐτοιμάσου καὶ φύγαμε" = "get your things together and we're out of here."

Given that the ancient Greek texts preserve only a fragment of what was said orally, they constitute but a limited cross-section of the language. There are plenty of words or usages in the LSJ which are scantily attested owing merely to chance and the vicissitudes of textual transmission. The primary value of Modern Greek is to supply the missing context, something which English or German obviously cannot do.
Well, one begins drawing a circle -- anywhere. I personally would find these modern Greek usages illuminated by ancient Greek. As for your specific examples:

1) A perfective usage of the aorist, idiomatic, and not unexpected.

2) Ah, the future perfect. If you've had Latin before Greek, you expect it to work the same, but it really doesn't. It emphasizes completion. Better in English something like "It shall be done."


Yes, lot's of missing ancient Greek. If they hurry up and resolve all the domain issues for the Herculaneum scrolls, maybe we'll get some more. But in the meantime, it also works the other way. I've interacted with more than one modern Greek speaker who misreads the ancient Greek because of the modern context and no practical familiarity with the ancient language.
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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

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Barry Hofstetter wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:00 pm Yes, lot's of missing ancient Greek. If they hurry up and resolve all the domain issues for the Herculaneum scrolls, maybe we'll get some more. But in the meantime, it also works the other way. I've interacted with more than one modern Greek speaker who misreads the ancient Greek because of the modern context and no practical familiarity with the ancient language.
Yes, absolutely. The great linguist George Hatzidakis put it this way, "Ancient Greek is illuminated by Modern Greek and Modern Greek is clarified by Ancient Greek." I was emphasizing the first part of the dictum, but the second is just as equally true.
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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

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jeidsath wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:15 pm If you continue on just a few more sentences, you will find Solon/Herodotus' definition of ολβιος. It is not used here as a synonym of πλουτος.
jeidsath wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:39 pm You still haven't read the entire section, I see.
Yes, I did read the passage:

εἰ δὲ πρὸς τούτοισι ἔτι τελευτήσῃ τὸν βίον εὖ, οὗτος ἐκεῖνος τὸν σὺ ζητέεις, ὁ ὄλβιος κεκλῆσθαι ἄξιος ἐστί.

Why must you always insist on a zero-sum interpretation? Yes, ὄλβιος here is used in the sense of "happiness." At the same time, it contains material overtones that εὐδαίμων does not. So Solon was still using ὄλβιος in the 7th-6th century. If Aristotle was writing this passage in the 4th century, would he not have used the word εὐδαίμων in this context? Which only proves what I was telling seneca2008, namely that there was a lexical shift between Archaic and Classical times, and words which were once in current use like ὄλβιος thereafter became poetic.
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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

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Which only proves what I was telling seneca2008, namely that there was a lexical shift between Archaic and Classical times, and words which were once in current use like ὄλβιος thereafter became poetic.
Oh yes, there is certainly lexical variation indicated here. Though I don't know how much is chronological and how much is regional. Thucydides doesn't use ὄλβιος either.
If Aristotle was writing this passage in the 4th century, would he not have used the word εὐδαίμων in this context?
Well, that's a different question. Did you notice that Herodotus uses εὐδαιμονία in this passage too? He's perfectly familiar with the word, and is making a distinction. I don't know how Aristotle would have made the same distinction, but I expect that he would have. You are right that I wouldn't expect him to use ὄλβιος.
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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

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What are your guys' thoughts on spoken Ancient Greek in the classroom? Was there any point in particular in your studies where you think it would have helped the learning process?

Funny little anecdote, I recently discovered that Marsilio Ficino wrote a Greek-Latin phrasebook back in the Renaissance. His conversation topics cover everything from the days of the week to cooking. If you can find it it's worth a read!
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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

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Evangelos96 wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:23 pm What are your guys' thoughts on spoken Ancient Greek in the classroom? Was there any point in particular in your studies where you think it would have helped the learning process?

Funny little anecdote, I recently discovered that Marsilio Ficino wrote a Greek-Latin phrasebook back in the Renaissance. His conversation topics cover everything from the days of the week to cooking. If you can find it it's worth a read!
First, speaking of φθάνω (which we were above) just read this in in Iliad 16.816

φθήῃ ἐμῷ ὑπὸ δουρὶ τυπεὶς ἀπὸ θυμὸν ὀλέσσαι... :D

Especially sensitive to the construction because of our discussion.

Secondly, some time ago I did an online course emphasizing speaking the language (using reconstructed "Koine" pronunciation) and found it very helpful. IMNSHO, it has to be done from a matrix of ancient Greek and can really only be a supplement to the literary basis, but any time we are interacting properly with the language, it's a plus.
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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

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Nice! :D
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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

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Evangelos96 wrote:
I recently discovered that Marsilio Ficino wrote a Greek-Latin phrasebook.
What's the name of the work?
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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

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persequor wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:25 pm Evangelos96 wrote:
I recently discovered that Marsilio Ficino wrote a Greek-Latin phrasebook.
What's the name of the work?
Lessico greco-latino : Laur. Ashb. 1439
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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

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persequor wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:25 pm Evangelos96 wrote:
I recently discovered that Marsilio Ficino wrote a Greek-Latin phrasebook.
What's the name of the work?
According to The Classical Review, it is the text from the Hermeneumata Ps. Dositheana. You can find the text here: CGL iii.221-79

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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

Post by Evangelos96 »

That makes sense. I was somewhat puzzled at why an Italian from the 15th century was still cooking with garum lol. Thank you for the reference!
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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

bedwere wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:06 am
persequor wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:25 pm Evangelos96 wrote:
I recently discovered that Marsilio Ficino wrote a Greek-Latin phrasebook.
What's the name of the work?
According to The Classical Review, it is the text from the Hermeneumata Ps. Dositheana. You can find the text here: CGL iii.221-79
Dickey's edition of the Colloquia is well worth getting if anyone is going to make extensive use of these:

https://www.amazon.com/Colloquia-Hermen ... 079&sr=8-2
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Re: Modern Greek: Would it help?

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Barry Hofstetter wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:53 am
Dickey's edition of the Colloquia is well worth getting if anyone is going to make extensive use of these:

https://www.amazon.com/Colloquia-Hermen ... 079&sr=8-2
My old readings (but out of CGL):

Hermeneumata
Hermeneumata Stephani

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