Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων;
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Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων;
Hi I just wonder why in the new testament the king of kings is expressed in
"Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων" but not "Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλέων" ?
What is the difference here?
"Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων" but not "Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλέων" ?
What is the difference here?
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Re: Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων;
βασιλευόντων Is the gen plural present participle of βασιλεύω.
So, King of those ruling (as kings) or king of those who rule.
Is there a difference? I guess possibly the verb has a wider meaning but it seems unlikely in this context.
So, King of those ruling (as kings) or king of those who rule.
Is there a difference? I guess possibly the verb has a wider meaning but it seems unlikely in this context.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.
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Re: Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων;
One could see it as a slightly nuanced way of indicating the temporary nature of earthly kings. If one is merely "ruling" βασιλεύων, then they are temporary. However, if they are "king" βασιλεύς, it is a bit more connected to their nature as a person...perhaps?
There is a really nice statement at the end of the Martyrdom of Polycarp about this...for a little background, remember that years/dates are always given with respect to the current year of the reign of the current king:
Μαρτυρεῖ δὲ ὁ μακάριος Πολύκαρπος ⸀μηνὸς Ξανθικοῦ δευτέρᾳ ἱσταμένου, ⸀πρὸ ἑπτὰ καλανδῶν ⸀Μαρτίων, σαββάτῳ μεγάλῳ, ὥρᾳ ⸀ὀγδόῃ· ⸀συνελήφθη ὑπὸ Ἡρώδου ἐπὶ ἀρχιερέως Φιλίππου Τραλλιανοῦ, ἀνθυπατεύοντος Στατίου Κοδράτου, βασιλεύοντος δὲ εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας ⸀Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ· ⸂ᾧ ἡ δόξα, τιμή, μεγαλωσύνη, θρόνος αἰώνιος ἀπὸ γενεᾶς εἰς γενεάν, ἀμήν⸃.
'And the blessed Polycarp was martyred on the second day of the first part of the month Xanthicus, seven days before the Kalends of March, on a great Sabbath, in the eighth hour. He was arrested by Herod during the reign of the high priest Philippus Trallianus, with Statius Quadratus acting as proconsul, but when Jesus Christ was reigning forever, to whom is the glory, honor, greatness, eternal throne from generation to generation, Amen.'
There is a really nice statement at the end of the Martyrdom of Polycarp about this...for a little background, remember that years/dates are always given with respect to the current year of the reign of the current king:
Μαρτυρεῖ δὲ ὁ μακάριος Πολύκαρπος ⸀μηνὸς Ξανθικοῦ δευτέρᾳ ἱσταμένου, ⸀πρὸ ἑπτὰ καλανδῶν ⸀Μαρτίων, σαββάτῳ μεγάλῳ, ὥρᾳ ⸀ὀγδόῃ· ⸀συνελήφθη ὑπὸ Ἡρώδου ἐπὶ ἀρχιερέως Φιλίππου Τραλλιανοῦ, ἀνθυπατεύοντος Στατίου Κοδράτου, βασιλεύοντος δὲ εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας ⸀Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ· ⸂ᾧ ἡ δόξα, τιμή, μεγαλωσύνη, θρόνος αἰώνιος ἀπὸ γενεᾶς εἰς γενεάν, ἀμήν⸃.
'And the blessed Polycarp was martyred on the second day of the first part of the month Xanthicus, seven days before the Kalends of March, on a great Sabbath, in the eighth hour. He was arrested by Herod during the reign of the high priest Philippus Trallianus, with Statius Quadratus acting as proconsul, but when Jesus Christ was reigning forever, to whom is the glory, honor, greatness, eternal throne from generation to generation, Amen.'
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Re: Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων;
Thank you for your help!:)seneca2008 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:58 am βασιλευόντων Is the gen plural present participle of βασιλεύω.
So, King of those ruling (as kings) or king of those who rule.
Is there a difference? I guess possibly the verb has a wider meaning but it seems unlikely in this context.
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Re: Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων;
Thank you for your help! Now I got the importance of ῥητορῐκόςbpk wrote: ↑Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:19 am One could see it as a slightly nuanced way of indicating the temporary nature of earthly kings. If one is merely "ruling" βασιλεύων, then they are temporary. However, if they are "king" βασιλεύς, it is a bit more connected to their nature as a person...perhaps?
There is a really nice statement at the end of the Martyrdom of Polycarp about this...for a little background, remember that years/dates are always given with respect to the current year of the reign of the current king:
Μαρτυρεῖ δὲ ὁ μακάριος Πολύκαρπος ⸀μηνὸς Ξανθικοῦ δευτέρᾳ ἱσταμένου, ⸀πρὸ ἑπτὰ καλανδῶν ⸀Μαρτίων, σαββάτῳ μεγάλῳ, ὥρᾳ ⸀ὀγδόῃ· ⸀συνελήφθη ὑπὸ Ἡρώδου ἐπὶ ἀρχιερέως Φιλίππου Τραλλιανοῦ, ἀνθυπατεύοντος Στατίου Κοδράτου, βασιλεύοντος δὲ εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας ⸀Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ· ⸂ᾧ ἡ δόξα, τιμή, μεγαλωσύνη, θρόνος αἰώνιος ἀπὸ γενεᾶς εἰς γενεάν, ἀμήν⸃.
'And the blessed Polycarp was martyred on the second day of the first part of the month Xanthicus, seven days before the Kalends of March, on a great Sabbath, in the eighth hour. He was arrested by Herod during the reign of the high priest Philippus Trallianus, with Statius Quadratus acting as proconsul, but when Jesus Christ was reigning forever, to whom is the glory, honor, greatness, eternal throne from generation to generation, Amen.'
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Re: Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων;
Μαρτυρεῖ δὲ ὁ μακάριος Πολύκαρπος doesn’t mean “Polycarp was martyred” but “Polycarp testifies.” The quote follows.
And βασιλεύοντος δὲ εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας ⸀Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ is a genitive absolute, “in the everlasting reign of JC”, as in the regular bureaucratic dating formula ἀνθυπατεύοντος Στατίου Κοδράτου “in the proconsulship of Stat.Cod.” It looks like a later addition tacked on to the original data.
So it has no bearing on the Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων phrase. There were a number of local rulers but only one who is claimed to be king of them all. The grandiose idea originates in the Middle Eastern kingdoms of Assyria and Babylonia, with their ethos of domination, and will more immediately be based on the Hebrew scriptures. Check the Hebrew phrase, or the Septuagint.
And βασιλεύοντος δὲ εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας ⸀Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ is a genitive absolute, “in the everlasting reign of JC”, as in the regular bureaucratic dating formula ἀνθυπατεύοντος Στατίου Κοδράτου “in the proconsulship of Stat.Cod.” It looks like a later addition tacked on to the original data.
So it has no bearing on the Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων phrase. There were a number of local rulers but only one who is claimed to be king of them all. The grandiose idea originates in the Middle Eastern kingdoms of Assyria and Babylonia, with their ethos of domination, and will more immediately be based on the Hebrew scriptures. Check the Hebrew phrase, or the Septuagint.
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Re: Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων;
It's the Persian title of the kings of the Achaemenid dynasty, following Cyrus the Great. Xšâyathiya Xšâyathiyânâm in old Persian, apparently. In the Old Testament, the title only appears in Ezra, referring to Artaxerxes. The Septuagint happens to translate this section of Ezra twice (1st Esdras and 2nd Esdras), where it has βασιλεὺς βασιλέων at 2Es 7:12, and more standard Greek appellation of the Persian King at the other translation of the same Hebrew, 1Es 8:9, simply Βασιλεὺς Ἀρταξέρξης. This verse may or may not have been in Pseudo Paul's mind at 1 Timothy 6:15.
Looking at the Old Persian grammar on Wikipedia, Xšâyathiyânâm looks like plural genitive form of Xšâyathiya, and not the participle.
Looking at the Old Persian grammar on Wikipedia, Xšâyathiyânâm looks like plural genitive form of Xšâyathiya, and not the participle.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”
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Re: Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων;
It doesn’t have to be tied to Persian. βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων is an NT variation on the Septuagint’s βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλέων (Exekiel, also Daniel), reflective of Jesus’ non-secular status as king. There were a number of earthly rulers but the Christian claim is that the Christ is king of them all.
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Re: Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων;
Persian and Babylonian provenance, to be a bit more exact. The actual phrase appears 3 times in the OT:mwh wrote: ↑Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:48 pm Μαρτυρεῖ δὲ ὁ μακάριος Πολύκαρπος doesn’t mean “Polycarp was martyred” but “Polycarp testifies.” The quote follows.
And βασιλεύοντος δὲ εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας ⸀Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ is a genitive absolute, “in the everlasting reign of JC”, as in the regular bureaucratic dating formula ἀνθυπατεύοντος Στατίου Κοδράτου “in the proconsulship of Stat.Cod.” It looks like a later addition tacked on to the original data.
So it has no bearing on the Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων phrase. There were a number of local rulers but only one who is claimed to be king of them all. The grandiose idea originates in the Middle Eastern kingdoms of Assyria and Babylonia, with their ethos of domination, and will more immediately be based on the Hebrew scriptures. Check the Hebrew phrase, or the Septuagint.
Ezra 7:12, מֶ֖לֶךְ מַלְכַיָּ֑א, (Aramaic), LXX βασιλεὺς βασιλέων
Ezekiel 26:76 מֶ֣לֶךְ מְלָכִ֑ים, LXX βασιλεὺς βασιλέων
Daniel 2:27, מֶ֖לֶךְ מַלְכַיָּ֑א, (Aramaic), LXX βασιλεὺς βασιλέων...
A similar concept is expressed in 2 kings 2:18, הַגָּד֖וֹל מֶ֥לֶךְ, τοῦ μεγάλου βασιλέως...
In the NT, Rev 17:14 and 19:16 use the LXX phrasing. 1 Tim 6:15 Uses the participle, βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων καὶ κύριος τῶν κυριευόντων. Using the substantive participle is simply a stylistic difference.
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Re: Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων;
Barry, you missed my more recent post, supplementing the one you quote. The difference is more than stylistic.
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Re: Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων;
Yes, it does seem to be its own OT usage, unrelated to the Persian. There seem to be a couple of related phrases "Lord of Lords" and the much more theologically interesting, "God of Gods"
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”
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Re: Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων;
Yes, I was typing the other one (and doing other things) while you wrote so they crossed. I don't think that the LXX phrasing in Revelation implies anything less -- in other words, they are all saying that the Lord is king above all kings. The participle as usual expresses it in terms of the rulers actually ruling, but that is, as they say, a distinction without a difference.
Phil 2:9-11 expresses the concept without using the precise language. Joel mentioned "God of gods":
Deut 10:17, אֱלֹהֵ֣י הָֽאֱלֹהִ֔ים וַאֲדֹנֵ֖י הָאֲדֹנִ֑ים, LXX θεὸς τῶν θεῶν καὶ κύριος τῶν κυρίων, inter al.
1 Tim 6:15 uses the participle again for the latter part, κύριος τῶν κυριευόντων. As above, I don't see this meaning more or less then the nominal phrase translating the Hebrew/Aramaic superlative expression.
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Re: Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων;
Robert Alter (whose OT translation is now complete) gives the following for Deuteronomy 10:17 --
the God of gods and the Master of masters. Although both these epithets in all likelihood are linguistic fossils of an earlier view in which YHWH was conceived as the most powerful god, not the only one, the plausible sense here is a superlative (as in "the heavens of the heavens"), i.e., "supreme God and supreme Master."
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”
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Re: Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων;
In the Hebrew Tanakh, in Ezekiel, I see that “king of kings” is simply the same word repeated (undeclined of course), differentiated from the king of Babylon, the greatest king of the time (Nebuchadnezzar, not a favorite of the Israelites!). “King king” certainly trumps “Babylon king.” It’s the same with the Torah’s God god and Lord lord (Elohim Elohim Adon Adon)—there were many gods but only one god god (an exceptionally jealous one). Only in Greek, and then Latin, do we get the genitive. (And I’m sorry Barry doesn’t see the significance of 1 Tim.’s variation. I did try to explain.)
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Re: Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων;
(a bit off topic) I have been fortunate enough to visit several times the British Museum’s excellent Ashurbanipal exhibition. He gave himself the almost cosmic title King of the world. That’s megalomania for you!
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.
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Re: Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων;
Sargon (father of Sennacherib) had done the same much earlier.
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings; look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. But we do have some stupendous surviving works of Sargon.
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings; look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. But we do have some stupendous surviving works of Sargon.
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Re: Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων;
I see that you don't know Hebrew? In מֶ֣לֶךְ מְלָכִ֑ים, melek melekīm, מְלָכִ֑ים, melekīm, is in the construct relationship with מֶ֣לֶךְ, melek, expressing what in Greek and Latin would be the genitive relationship, in English with the preposition "of." Similarly with the other expressions you mention.mwh wrote: ↑Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:10 pm In the Hebrew Tanakh, in Ezekiel, I see that “king of kings” is simply the same word repeated (undeclined of course), differentiated from the king of Babylon, the greatest king of the time (Nebuchadnezzar, not a favorite of the Israelites!). “King king” certainly trumps “Babylon king.” It’s the same with the Torah’s God god and Lord lord (Elohim Elohim Adon Adon)—there were many gods but only one god god (an exceptionally jealous one). Only in Greek, and then Latin, do we get the genitive. (And I’m sorry Barry doesn’t see the significance of 1 Tim.’s variation. I did try to explain.)
Your explanation didn't really explain anything:
For one thing, note that none of the LXX expressions use the article. Neither the Greek nor the Hebrew express any limited body of kings. The writer of Revelation follows the LXX formula exactly:MWH wrote:It doesn’t have to be tied to Persian. βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων is an NT variation on the Septuagint’s βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλέων (Exekiel, also Daniel), reflective of Jesus’ non-secular status as king. There were a number of earthly rulers but the Christian claim is that the Christ is king of them all.
κύριος κυρίων ἐστὶν καὶ βασιλεὺς βασιλέων. Do you really think this means something different than what the writer of 1 Timothy means at 6:15?
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Re: Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων;
That's an interesting take. Not to derail the thread (perhaps better to PM me the answer?), but where does the following quote of Polycarp begin? The rest of the text seems to refer to Polycarp only in the third person, so I'm not sure where the quote would be. By the context it seems more likely to me that the dating formula which corresponds to the date of his death (note earlier references in the work) would indicate that μαρτυρεῖ here is being used to indicate martyrdom.
Good point. I agree it has no grammatical bearing for understanding the other phrase, though it's a nice parallel to understand one aspect of the cultural/historical background behind the idea, namely, the eternal reign of Jesus being compared with the temporal reigns of earthly kings.mwh wrote: ↑Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:48 pm So it has no bearing on the Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων phrase. There were a number of local rulers but only one who is claimed to be king of them all. The grandiose idea originates in the Middle Eastern kingdoms of Assyria and Babylonia, with their ethos of domination, and will more immediately be based on the Hebrew scriptures. Check the Hebrew phrase, or the Septuagint.
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Re: Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων;
It is worth noting that the Greek translators do not always replicate the grammar of the Hebrew in a "wooden" fashion when dealing with מלך (forms of the verb or the noun) and βασιλεύω. For example, the LXX translates the Hebrew dating formula into a formulation more consistent with the normal Greek dating formula (at least in some instances even though they are not strictly parallel grammatically). For example,
1 Kgs. 6.1:
לִמְלֹ֥ךְ שְׁלֹמֹ֖ה עַל־יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל
βασιλεύοντος τοῦ βασιλέως Σαλωμων ἐπὶ Ισραηλ
1 Kgs. 14.25:
בַּשָּׁנָ֥ה הַחֲמִישִׁ֖ית לַמֶּ֣לֶךְ רְחַבְעָ֑ם
ἐν τῷ ἐνιαυτῷ τῷ πέμπτῳ βασιλεύοντος Ροβοαμ
Also, in reference to an earlier comment by Barry ...
*mVlak-ūm(a) halakū
'kings-MPL.NOM walked'
'The kings walked'
*mVlk-u malak-īm(a)
'king.MSG-NOM kings-MPL.OBL/GEN
'King of kings'
This is true for Akkadian, Arabic, Ugaritic, and was probably also the case in early Hebrew. So even though it is no longer indicated in the vocalisation, grammatically it may still be defined the same way.
1 Kgs. 6.1:
לִמְלֹ֥ךְ שְׁלֹמֹ֖ה עַל־יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל
βασιλεύοντος τοῦ βασιλέως Σαλωμων ἐπὶ Ισραηλ
1 Kgs. 14.25:
בַּשָּׁנָ֥ה הַחֲמִישִׁ֖ית לַמֶּ֣לֶךְ רְחַבְעָ֑ם
ἐν τῷ ἐνιαυτῷ τῷ πέμπτῳ βασιλεύοντος Ροβοαμ
Also, in reference to an earlier comment by Barry ...
I completely agree, though I would go a step further. It is not only "what in Greek and Latin would be the genitive relationship," but is in fact a genitive relationship in the Hebrew. The Semitic languages used to have case (nominative, genitive/oblique, and accusative), indicated by final vowels, and the final noun in a construct chain is in the genitive case (reconstructed early Hebrew):Barry Hofstetter wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:23 am In מֶ֣לֶךְ מְלָכִ֑ים, melek melekīm, מְלָכִ֑ים, melekīm, is in the construct relationship with מֶ֣לֶךְ, melek, expressing what in Greek and Latin would be the genitive relationship, in English with the preposition "of." Similarly with the other expressions you mention.
*mVlak-ūm(a) halakū
'kings-MPL.NOM walked'
'The kings walked'
*mVlk-u malak-īm(a)
'king.MSG-NOM kings-MPL.OBL/GEN
'King of kings'
This is true for Akkadian, Arabic, Ugaritic, and was probably also the case in early Hebrew. So even though it is no longer indicated in the vocalisation, grammatically it may still be defined the same way.
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Re: Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων;
Thanks to Barry and bpk for setting me straight about the Hebrew.
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Re: Βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων;
Thank you all!
On your levels I am almost illiterate.
On your levels I am almost illiterate.